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By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.
- Thread starter Onkara
- Start date
xkatz
Well-Known Member
While meditation can be a handy tool, it can only be used in an individual manner. Also, it sometimes distracts us from more important things, like helping others. I think "inner silence" is obtained from other means, such as seva and being a good person in general.
I don't see how this quote from SGGS is saying this. I think it is just saying that just relying on meditation alone will not lead one to salvation of the mind. Perhaps you could explain what you are trying to say here?
Thanks X Katz, you offer a new angle on this for me, thanks, I will mediate on it
I can elaborate on my own understanding.
We can begin with the statement that thoughts are material, albeit very subtle. We can change our thoughts if we change our food or take intoxicants i.e. thoughts are influenced by the material elements because they are material. In Indian Philosophy everything is made of the core 5 elements (often referred to as 27 elements). So the mind is a part of those elements, see verses below if you please
Page 44, Line 2
ਇਕਸੈ ਦੀ ਸਾਮਗਰੀ ਇਕਸੈ ਦੀ ਹੈ ਰੀਤਿ ॥
इकसै दी सामगरी इकसै दी है रीति ॥
Iksai ḏī sāmagrī iksai ḏī hai rīṯ.
The elements and the components are all made by the One; they are held in their order by the One.
Page 23, Line 18
ਬੀਸ ਸਪਤਾਹਰੋ ਬਾਸਰੋ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹੈ ਤੀਨਿ ਖੋੜਾ ਨਿਤ ਕਾਲੁ ਸਾਰੈ ॥
बीस सपताहरो बासरो संग्रहै तीनि खोड़ा नित कालु सारै ॥
Bīs sapṯāhro bāsro sangrahai ṯīn kẖoṛā niṯ kāl sārai.
Bring the twenty-seven elements of the body under your control, and throughout the three stages of life, remember death.
Page 342, Line 5
ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ॥
इहु मनु पंच तत को जीउ ॥
Ih man pancẖ ṯaṯ ko jī▫o.
This mind is the life of the five elements.
Page 415, Line 10
ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਤੇ ਜਨਮਾ ॥
इहु मनु पंच ततु ते जनमा ॥
Ih man pancẖ ṯaṯ ṯe janmā.
This mind is born of the five elements.
In Indian Philosophy, and I am concentrating on the most wise Sri Guru Granth Sahib JI, we are also told that everything that happens is due to the Three Gunas, which are a creation of WaheGuru:
Page 1003, Line 19
ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਆ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥
त्रै गुण कीआ पसारा ॥
Ŧarai guṇ kī▫ā pasārā.
He formed the expanse of the entire universe from the three gunas, the three qualities.
Page 1258, Line 4
ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਸਭਾ ਧਾਤੁ ਹੈ ਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਭਾਇ ॥
त्रै गुण सभा धातु है ना हरि भगति न भाइ ॥
Ŧarai guṇ sabẖā ḏẖāṯ hai nā har bẖagaṯ na bẖā▫e.
Under the influence of the three gunas, the three dispositions, the mind wanders everywhere, without love or devotion to the Lord.
Page 1270, Line 6
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥
गुरमुखि त्रै गुणीआं बिसथारु ॥
Gurmukẖ ṯarai guṇī▫āʼn bisthār.
The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.
The Three Gunas are the problem, because they play on the mind, keeping us detached to maya and in a life of the manmukhs i.e. away from the True One in a life with sorrow and pain. This is their nature of the Gunas and a key to understanding liberation. We must keep in mind the following:
1) The Lord created the universe, the three Gunas, the 5 elements (including the mind) and everything in it:
2) The Gunas play on the mind and are out of our control. In other words they are that which does not let the mind be silent. But...
3) Because the gunas are the creation of the Lord, they are under His will (Hukam) and not our own. So our mind cannot be silent because it is not under our control, it is influenced and played upon by the Gunas. We have thoughts, some we choose and others seem random or even distracting. So;
Even.. by remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.
Because the mind is not ours to control, so inner silence may and cannot be obtained by ourselves. All depends on the grace of the True Guru - of Waheguru. His Hukam. For me hukam is the key to unlocking the message of the Gurus.
----------
My apologies, I didn't intend this to turn into a lecture, but your good question made it clear I had not provided enough explanation If it raises any questions, I am prepared to add to this.
I can elaborate on my own understanding.
We can begin with the statement that thoughts are material, albeit very subtle. We can change our thoughts if we change our food or take intoxicants i.e. thoughts are influenced by the material elements because they are material. In Indian Philosophy everything is made of the core 5 elements (often referred to as 27 elements). So the mind is a part of those elements, see verses below if you please
Page 44, Line 2
ਇਕਸੈ ਦੀ ਸਾਮਗਰੀ ਇਕਸੈ ਦੀ ਹੈ ਰੀਤਿ ॥
इकसै दी सामगरी इकसै दी है रीति ॥
Iksai ḏī sāmagrī iksai ḏī hai rīṯ.
The elements and the components are all made by the One; they are held in their order by the One.
Page 23, Line 18
ਬੀਸ ਸਪਤਾਹਰੋ ਬਾਸਰੋ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹੈ ਤੀਨਿ ਖੋੜਾ ਨਿਤ ਕਾਲੁ ਸਾਰੈ ॥
बीस सपताहरो बासरो संग्रहै तीनि खोड़ा नित कालु सारै ॥
Bīs sapṯāhro bāsro sangrahai ṯīn kẖoṛā niṯ kāl sārai.
Bring the twenty-seven elements of the body under your control, and throughout the three stages of life, remember death.
Page 342, Line 5
ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ॥
इहु मनु पंच तत को जीउ ॥
Ih man pancẖ ṯaṯ ko jī▫o.
This mind is the life of the five elements.
Page 415, Line 10
ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਤੇ ਜਨਮਾ ॥
इहु मनु पंच ततु ते जनमा ॥
Ih man pancẖ ṯaṯ ṯe janmā.
This mind is born of the five elements.
In Indian Philosophy, and I am concentrating on the most wise Sri Guru Granth Sahib JI, we are also told that everything that happens is due to the Three Gunas, which are a creation of WaheGuru:
Page 1003, Line 19
ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਆ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥
त्रै गुण कीआ पसारा ॥
Ŧarai guṇ kī▫ā pasārā.
He formed the expanse of the entire universe from the three gunas, the three qualities.
Page 1258, Line 4
ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਸਭਾ ਧਾਤੁ ਹੈ ਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਭਾਇ ॥
त्रै गुण सभा धातु है ना हरि भगति न भाइ ॥
Ŧarai guṇ sabẖā ḏẖāṯ hai nā har bẖagaṯ na bẖā▫e.
Under the influence of the three gunas, the three dispositions, the mind wanders everywhere, without love or devotion to the Lord.
Page 1270, Line 6
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥
गुरमुखि त्रै गुणीआं बिसथारु ॥
Gurmukẖ ṯarai guṇī▫āʼn bisthār.
The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.
The Three Gunas are the problem, because they play on the mind, keeping us detached to maya and in a life of the manmukhs i.e. away from the True One in a life with sorrow and pain. This is their nature of the Gunas and a key to understanding liberation. We must keep in mind the following:
1) The Lord created the universe, the three Gunas, the 5 elements (including the mind) and everything in it:
2) The Gunas play on the mind and are out of our control. In other words they are that which does not let the mind be silent. But...
3) Because the gunas are the creation of the Lord, they are under His will (Hukam) and not our own. So our mind cannot be silent because it is not under our control, it is influenced and played upon by the Gunas. We have thoughts, some we choose and others seem random or even distracting. So;
Even.. by remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.
Because the mind is not ours to control, so inner silence may and cannot be obtained by ourselves. All depends on the grace of the True Guru - of Waheguru. His Hukam. For me hukam is the key to unlocking the message of the Gurus.
----------
My apologies, I didn't intend this to turn into a lecture, but your good question made it clear I had not provided enough explanation
If it raises any questions, I am prepared to add to this.Hi XKatz
Your initial gut feeling above was good enough I am just opening a topic for the pleasure of participating and friendly exploration rather than hoping for the answer which makes me rich... although do tell if you know how I can be rich... come on, don't be shy now.. tell me!!:areyoucra :drool:
Your initial gut feeling above was good enough
I am just opening a topic for the pleasure of participating and friendly exploration rather than hoping for the answer which makes me rich... although do tell if you know how I can be rich... come on, don't be shy now.. tell me!!:areyoucra :drool:
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GURSIKH
chardi kla
Hi Onkaara ji ,
Thoughts are Divine will even no thoughts are Divine Will
Japji Sahib Pauri 33
ਆਖਣਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਚੁਪੈ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
No power to speak, no power to keep silent.
ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਮੰਗਣਿ ਦੇਣਿ ਨ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
No power to beg, no power to give.
ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
No power to live, no power to die.
ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ ॥
No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers.
ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation.
ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੁਗਤੀ ਛੁਟੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
No power to find the way to escape from the world.
ਜਿਸੁ ਹਥਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all.
ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੩੩॥
O Nanak, no one is high or low. ||33||
Wahe Guru ji ki Fateh
GURSIKH
chardi kla
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Thanks Gursikh ji
Of course you are right - no thoughts too are divine will... a divine paradox.
I paticularly like the paurís you quote. Remembering the following alone has an immense impression on my being:
ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
No power to live, no power to die.
So we just continue, in our happiness (anand)... posting on RF now and then
Page 31, Line 6
ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦਿ ਰਹੈ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੩॥
सदा अनंदि रहै दिनु राती मिलि प्रीतम सुखु पाए ॥३॥
Saḏā anand rahai ḏin rāṯī mil parīṯam sukẖ pā▫e. ||3||
Such a person remains blissful forever, day and night. Meeting the Beloved, peace is found. ||3||
Of course you are right - no thoughts too are divine will... a divine paradox.
I paticularly like the paurís you quote. Remembering the following alone has an immense impression on my being:
ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
No power to live, no power to die.
So we just continue, in our happiness (anand)... posting on RF now and then
Page 31, Line 6
ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦਿ ਰਹੈ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੩॥
सदा अनंदि रहै दिनु राती मिलि प्रीतम सुखु पाए ॥३॥
Saḏā anand rahai ḏin rāṯī mil parīṯam sukẖ pā▫e. ||3||
Such a person remains blissful forever, day and night. Meeting the Beloved, peace is found. ||3||
Onkaara ji i am not fully satisfied with this particular translation
Oh well,
please point me to a different translation. I am aware that there are quite a lot. Unfortunately we are limited to web sites. Is it possible to purchase book copies of SGGS? I understand it is not possible?
GURSIKH
chardi kla
its certainly better than previous , bcoz livtaar can 't be translated as lovingly absorbed .
Livtaar here means a crane Samadhi ,
Tenth Nanak Makes it more clear , and also check the underlined last line of Gurbani below
ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਜੋ ਦੋਉ ਲੋਚਨ ਮੂੰਦ ਕੈ ਬੈਠਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਬਕ ਧਿਆਨ ਲਗਾਇਓ ॥
Of what use it is if one sits and meditates like a crane with his eyes closed.
ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਫਿਰਿਓ ਲੀਏ ਸਾਤ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਗਯੋ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਗਵਾਇਓ ॥
If he takes bath at holy places upto the seventh sea, he loses this world and also the next world.
ਬਾਸ ਕੀਓ ਬਿਖਿਆਨ ਸੋ ਬੈਠ ਕੈ ਐਸੇ ਹੀ ਐਸੇ ਸੁ ਬੈਸ ਬਿਤਾਇਓ ॥
He spends his life in such performing evil actions and wastes his life in such pursuits.
ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੋਂ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਿਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਕੀਓ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਇਓ ॥੯॥
I speak Truth, all should turn their ears towards it: he, who is absorbed in True Love, he would realize the Lord. 9.
Sudha Ustat - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.
Wahe Guru ji ki Fateh
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Hi Gursikh Ji
Thanks, that is useful
Crane is a type of bird, correct? I am not clear how Livtaar means both "crane" and "samadhi" I will need to do some research
Do you think you could answer my question in post number 9
You can PM me if better
Thanks, that is useful
Crane is a type of bird, correct? I am not clear how Livtaar means both "crane" and "samadhi" I will need to do some research
Do you think you could answer my question in post number 9
You can PM me if better
GURSIKH
chardi kla
Hi Gursikh Ji
Thanks, that is useful
Crane is a type of bird, correct? I am not clear how Livtaar means both "crane" and "samadhi" I will need to do some research
Do you think you could answer my question in post number 9
You can PM me if better
Onkaara ji
yes Crane is a bird ,
it look like that bird is meditating deep with eyes closed or is in Samadhi on ponds bank , but actually crane waits for fish in that posture , its known as Crane Samadhi
i will answer post no 9
Sat nam
Peacewise
Active Member
In my personal experience as a coach, the silence I have always enables me to observe the participants much better than just shouting out continuous instructions. I can and do see a dozen things they are doing wrong (for instance technique) or indeed a dozen things they are doing right and I could use all my energy to detail each one of those during the sessions. Yet it is known that intrinsic motivation for correction/improvement is even more powerful than extrinsic motivation and so despite that I do speak I am seeking that the participate quiet their noise so that they may look inside themselves for that area of improvement/correction that I have already seen, or indeed I do not see but they may.
An Olympic Volleyball coach once said to me.
"the best coaches ask more questions than provide answers"
This to me is an example of silence, for if I provide the answer I am being noisey, whilst for them to provide the answer I must be silent, and indeed they must look within and hence be silent too!
I put it another way too.
What single comment of mine can best help them achieve their aim?
What single question of mine can best help them achieve their aim?
I feel that some coaches do not have that 'singleness' in their mind regarding their coaching and perhaps their coaching is as much about themselves as it is about their players. I am all about the players and care nothing for projecting my authority.
I've noted that Aikido is practiced in silence, though I only observed (in silence) a single session.
GURSIKH
chardi kla
Hi XKatz
. although do tell if you know how I can be rich... come on, don't be shy now.. tell me!!:areyoucra :drool:
ਕਿਨਹੀ ਬਨਜਿਆ ਕਾਂਸੀ ਤਾਂਬਾ ਕਿਨਹੀ ਲਉਗ ਸੁਪਾਰੀ ॥
Some deal in bronze and copper, some in cloves and betel nuts.
ਸੰਤਹੁ ਬਨਜਿਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਕਾ ਐਸੀ ਖੇਪ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥੧॥
The Saints deal in the Naam, the Name of the Lord of the Universe. Such is my merchandise as well. ||1||
ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਬਿਆਪਾਰੀ ॥
I am a trader in the Name of the Lord.
ਹੀਰਾ ਹਾਥਿ ਚੜਿਆ ਨਿਰਮੋਲਕੁ ਛੂਟਿ ਗਈ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
The priceless diamond has come into my hands. I have left the world behind. ||1||Pause||
ਸਾਚੇ ਲਾਏ ਤਉ ਸਚ ਲਾਗੇ ਸਾਚੇ ਕੇ ਬਿਉਹਾਰੀ ॥
When the True Lord attached me, then I was attached to Truth. I am a trader of the True Lord.
ਸਾਚੀ ਬਸਤੁ ਕੇ ਭਾਰ ਚਲਾਏ ਪਹੁਚੇ ਜਾਇ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ॥੨॥
I have loaded the commodity of Truth; It has reached the Lord, the Treasurer. ||2||
ਆਪਹਿ ਰਤਨ ਜਵਾਹਰ ਮਾਨਿਕ ਆਪੈ ਹੈ ਪਾਸਾਰੀ ॥
He Himself is the pearl, the jewel, the ruby; He Himself is the jeweler.
ਆਪੈ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਆਪ ਚਲਾਵੈ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਹੈ ਬਿਆਪਾਰੀ ॥੩॥
He Himself spreads out in the ten directions. The Merchant is Eternal and Unchanging. ||3||
ਮਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਬੈਲੁ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਪੈਡਾ ਗਿਆਨ ਗੋਨਿ ਭਰਿ ਡਾਰੀ ॥
My mind is the bull, and meditation is the road; I have filled my packs with spiritual wisdom, and loaded them on the bull.
ਕਹਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਨਿਬਹੀ ਖੇਪ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੨॥
Says Kabeer, listen, O Saints: my merchandise has reached its destination! ||4||2||
Wahe Guru JI ki Fateh
GURSIKH
chardi kla
OnkarahThanks Gursikh ji
Of course you are right - no thoughts too are divine will... a divine paradox.
So we just continue, in our happiness (anand)... posting on RF now and then
may we always remains in Anand :trampo:
Oh well,
Onkaara i rarely use english translation for Guru Granth sahib , i know SGGS translation available in 4-5 Volume by many authors such as Dr Gandha singh Panjabi university Patiala , Kartar Singh Duggal ,Maculife but i will recomend you after little research
may i ask from which translation it is ? JI
xkatz
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry I cannot tell you how to be rich; only you (and maybe Waheguru) know how to do thatHi XKatz
Your initial gut feeling above was good enough
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the_pranjal
Life a Question-Ans Game'
hello' i think through silience the truth of nature can be known and experiened. We have cultivated our mind as we have grown older. It will only distracts us from the ultimate truth by creating question in different ways. Silience can only be achieved if we became indifferent to mind...just be a silent watcher,how the mind wanders..when their is no relationship with mind,the mind is dropped and the complete inner silience is acheived..