Caitlyn Jenner says transgender girls in women’s sports is ‘unfair’

[darkskies]

I'm open to discussion on it. Unlike some, I'd describe my knowledge and thoughts on this area are 'developing'.

I'm fairly passionate about female sports for a variety of reasons (and sports in general).
I'm also pro-transgender rights.

It's just combining those two thoughts on this particular topic I find challenging.

All I want is equality. Challenging for me too :/

 

[blü 2]

No Need.
Just accept that a man can never be a woman, and prohibit trans women to compete against true women.
Eazy, settled.

Period, problem solved.
Done, klaar, finito, kaput!

That's one way of looking at it.

But I'm willing to listen to reasonable alternatives if other people propose them.

Because I know someone who's had gender reassignment surgery and is now considerably happier as a male, I don't dismiss the problem of gender identity out of hand, or think of such people as somehow fake. They're our fellow humans and they're as entitled to decent treatment from us as anyone else is.

However, no argument from me that sport can bring up particular problems in this regard,

 

[Twilight Hue]

Well they already do division of weight classes with boxing but it's still divided between male and female. I don't think that works by itself.

I think that will actually be a solution.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The problem is that if they transition post puberty or even during puberty, the bone structure and overall muscle mass in a biological male will never change and will always be a biological advantage over a biological female, no matter how much oestrogen is taken. Already we see transwomen outperforming bio women in female sports and it's not a surprise.

I also had more testosterone than estrogen (due to estrogen resistance and lack of production from PCOS) during puberty and grew up with bigger bones and more muscle mass, and could easily dominate most other women in training for sports where those are relevant. But we don't see natural born abilities being the limitation here, only sex.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

As I've said earlier, sports implicitly isn't fair and isn't trying to be. Exploiting unfair advantages like organ size or lack of pain threshold or other physiological benefit is how we got people like Lance Armstrong and Michael Phelps.

And there are already natural hormone disorders which given women advantages, such as estrogen intolerance or hypermasculinization or chromosomes switching. But we don't try and eliminate them, just people by their sex. Which shows that the argument of sex segregated sports is arbitrary.

If you want fairness make it based on division, both weight and skill checks. Not what dangles between your legs.

Also **** Caitlyn. She's a celebrity moron who transitioned in her 60's and thinks the biggest difference between living as a man or woman is picking your clothes. No one actually think she's an expert on trans issues

 

[We Never Know]

As I've said earlier, sports implicitly isn't fair and isn't trying to be. Exploiting unfair advantages like organ size or lack of pain threshold or other physiological benefit is how we got peoppe like Lance Armstrong and Michael Phelps.

And there are already natural hormone disorders which given women advantages, such as estrogen intolerance or hypermasculinization or chromosomes switching. But we don't try and eliminate them, just people by their sex. Which shows that the argument of sex segregated sports is arbitrary.

If you want fairness make it based on division, both weight and skill checks. Not what dangles between your legs.

Also **** Caitlyn. She's a celebrity moron who transitioned in her 60's and thinks the biggest difference between living as a man or woman is picking your clothes. No one actually think she's an expert on trans issues

But but but Glamour magazine named Caitlyn Jenner Woman of the Year in 2015 for her work as a "Trans Champion".

 

[ADigitalArtist]

But but but Glamour magazine named Caitlyn Jenner Woman of the Year in 2015 for her work as a "Trans Champion".

So she was named woman of the year by a bunch of wealthy cis executives. Lol

 

[We Never Know]

So she was named woman of the year by a bunch of wealthy cis executives. Lol

Exactly!

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Exactly!

All the more reason to run the other way.

 

[Revoltingest]

But but but Glamour magazine named Caitlyn Jenner Woman of the Year in 2015 for her work as a "Trans Champion".

I find it really strange that so many liberals, feminists,
& ostensible progressives hate Jenner so. She, like
everyone else, has opinions. But they're greeted with
such vitriol & intolerance....more so than countering
disagreement over issues.
BTW, I've no opinion of Jenner....yet.
If she becomes governor, then I might form one.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If you want fairness make it based on division, both weight and skill checks. Not what dangles between your legs.

I have no idea how this works for a sport like Australian Rules Football.

 

[Heyo]

And there are already natural hormone disorders which given women advantages, such as estrogen intolerance or hypermasculinization or chromosomes switching. But we don't try and eliminate them, just people by their sex.

Not completely correct. Some advantages, biological or induced by doping, would get you banned from participating in women's sports by the IOC.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Not completely correct. Some advantages, biological or induced by doping, would get you banned from participating in women's sports by the IOC.

I've never heard of anything disqualifying other than doping (or being trans) for advantage. Do you know what sort disqualifying biological advantage there is?

 

[Kooky]

I've never heard of anything disqualifying other than doping (or being trans) for advantage. Do you know what sort disqualifying biological advantage there is?

Many sports associations ban women based on testosterone levels in their blood, presumably because they believe testosterone confers an unfair advantage.

 

[Kooky]

The problem is that if they transition post puberty or even during puberty, the bone structure and overall muscle mass in a biological male will never change and will always be a biological advantage over a biological female, no matter how much oestrogen is taken. Already we see transwomen outperforming bio women in female sports and it's not a surprise.

"bio women"? As opposed to what, robot ladies?

 

[74x12]

Ooh, "common sense". Common sense is almost always used to defend the indefensible. The problem is that this is a complex issue. Most have heard that some transgender people start using hormone blocking drugs before puberty because of the irreversible changes that puberty brings. I have heard, but do not know if I can find articles, that there is little difference in performance if transgirls take hormone blocking medications before puberty. If they do not get the drugs there is a definite advantage to transgirls and that is not fair.

So you admit it's unfair unless they are started early on hormone treatments.

 

[Kooky]

Ooh, "common sense". Common sense is almost always used to defend the indefensible. The problem is that this is a complex issue. Most have heard that some transgender people start using hormone blocking drugs before puberty because of the irreversible changes that puberty brings. I have heard, but do not know if I can find articles, that there is little difference in performance if transgirls take hormone blocking medications before puberty. If they do not get the drugs there is a definite advantage to transgirls and that is not fair.

Do you find biological or genetic advantages in sports unfair in principle? If not, then why is this specific situation different?

 

[Kooky]

I have impeccable feminist credentials, but the reason for the division between comps for women and comps for men in just about every sport is because of the physiological differences between men and women ─ as a phenomenon of their sex, not of their gender.

So maybe she has a point.

But equally, maybe people smarter'n me can figure out a satisfactory solution.

That's not the first time I heard this, but so far I haven't seen anybody back up that claim with supporting evidence.

 

[Augustus]

Do you find biological or genetic advantages in sports unfair in principle? If not, then what's the difference in this specific situation?

The level of difference of course.

That's why men and women don't compete in the same events as otherwise there would be no elite female athletes. 15 year old schoolboys are better than elite females in most physically demanding sports.

Nothing factor is more closely connected to performance than being born male.

Are we back to the anti-trans bedrock argument "trans women aren't real women"?

How transwomen should be viewed socially as a matter of courtesy and respect is different from should they be allowed to compete in specific sporting events.

Where do you draw the line for sport?

Is simply self-identifying as a women sufficient to enable one to complete in women's sports, or is there some threshold one must cross?

If the former, elite women's sport will no longer exist as grifters will just go for the prize money. If the latter, you have the same problem of saying some transwomen 'aren't real women' as they haven't met the threshold so shouldn't be allowed to compete in the sports.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you find biological or genetic advantages in sports unfair in principle? If not, then why is this specific situation different?

People have a view of what is "fair" or not. Transgirls that went through puberty without hormone suppressing drugs will have an advantage that they would not have had otherwise. It is a very difficult subject to deal with fairly. There is a transgender bicyclist that has done rather well. One look at her body and she looks quite different from any of her cis-competitors. She would fail as a male bicyclist but managed to beat out the best of the female ones. That does not seem to be fair to most people.

How would you deal with this issue?