Cameron and Boris Out

[Jumi]

Secondly, It is also historically significant as it reverses the trend towards European integration that has taken place since World War II and the Cold War. Brexit is therefore a significant victory for far-right critics of the EU who challenge the necessity for European interfration, the loss of national sovereignty to European institutions, support economic nationalism, protectionism and want to end the free movement of labour due to highly racialised fears over immigration. To a much lesser extent it is also a slight victory for the far left in challenging the EU as a capitalist instutuon promoting free trade (but this did not play a significant role in the referendum result). It has created a lot of uncertainty about what the future of Europe will look like and how the EU will survive the current wave of opposition, threatening the break-up of the EU.

Interesting that a left winger would support the EU. Perhaps it's because you were born in the EU whereas Finland only joined in 1995. It was the right wing that lied to my country in hope of joining the EU. They admitted later on that the promises of cheaper food, keeping our own currency and just boosting our trade were lies, as they had already planned differently. One reason was to "protect us from Russia" who were still seen as leftists. The people just couldn't understand that it was for "their best". It's been good for some of the politicians, lots of jobs in the EU machine after they've lost all the respect of the people after screwing us over and can't get re-elected here.

 

[Laika]

Interesting that a left winger would support the EU. Perhaps it's because you were born in the EU whereas Finland only joined in 1995. It was the right wing that lied to my country in hope of joining the EU. They admitted later on that the promises of cheaper food, keeping our own currency and just boosting our trade were lies, as they had already planned differently. One reason was to "protect us from Russia" who were still seen as leftists. The people just couldn't understand that it was for "their best". It's been good for some of the politicians, lots of jobs in the EU machine after they've lost all the respect of the people after screwing us over and can't get re-elected here.

There are credible reasons to leave the EU but I had to weigh it against the fact that the right wing in the conservatives and the popularity of UKIP meant they were in a far better position to capitalise on Brexit. The lack of a clear path to Brexit from either the right or the left didn't help either and far left literature that said the economic and political crisis following Brexit would be fit the left rang alarm bells. I am pessimistic about the prospects of reform of the EU but supporting the status quo was the lesser evil.

If the leave campaign had been dominated by the far left or the centre left and had a well thought out exit strategy it is much more likely I would have voted leave unless I thought they were really dangerous/extreme. My mind changed about four times in the course of the campaign and I didn't let my principles blind me to the situation, but it was not an easy decision. I had several long discussions with my dad as my parents couldn't see a case for leaving the EU not related to racism or xenophobia and were hardline remain (even if they knew the vote was sort of a joke about how much and how quickly we were going to get screwed over). it was clear just how much misinformation there was around it and how poorly prepared the country (working class and ruling class alike) would be for Brexit.

I went to bed early in the hope of sleeping through till the morning but got up at midnight and stayed up till the result was announced in the morning listening to the radio first in headphones, but then my parents got up as they couldn't sleep either. I knew it was going to be close but It was a shock honestly. When morning came I went out and just tried to be proactive and get stuff done rather than let it fester and drown in the news. My parents took the result (and the ensuing labour leadership crisis) badly.

 

[David1967]

It is quite simple really.

Sovereignity, to the best of my understanding, is the idea that a political entity with its own authority, people and territory should have the authonomy to make its decisions as it pleases.

That may be appealling, but I don't think it is all that sober an idea. In reality we all can and ought to take other people, other nations and other interests into account and attempt to cooperate with the common good.

I don't think there is a whole lot of substance to the idea of nations to begin with.

So no, I will hardly ever be seen presenting sovereignity as something worth pursuing or preserving. Instead, I see it as a delusion worth overcoming.

Thanks for the response.

 

[LuisDantas]

You're welcome!

 

[David1967]

The first reason is to do with The European Union is a free trade area; so the UK leaving the EU has a number of economic effects and may bring about a recession in the UK and may affect the world economy as a result. This affects a large number of activities that have become integrated over the past few decades and is going to be disruptive.

Secondly, It is also historically significant as it reverses the trend towards European integration that has taken place since World War II and the Cold War. Brexit is therefore a significant victory for far-right critics of the EU who challenge the necessity for European interfration, the loss of national sovereignty to European institutions, support economic nationalism, protectionism and want to end the free movement of labour due to highly racialised fears over immigration. To a much lesser extent it is also a slight victory for the far left in challenging the EU as a capitalist instutuon promoting free trade (but this did not play a significant role in the referendum result). It has created a lot of uncertainty about what the future of Europe will look like and how the EU will survive the current wave of opposition, threatening the break-up of the EU.

Thanks for the response Laika.

 

[Jumi]

I think GB will stay in the free trade area and take the "Norway option". It makes most sense at the moment. I wish Finland, Denmark and Sweden will follow suit.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think GB will stay in the free trade area and take the "Norway option". .

It might not be such a good option.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/norways-model-brexit-051506573.html

 

[Jumi]

There are credible reasons to leave the EU but I had to weigh it against the fact that the right wing in the conservatives and the popularity of UKIP meant they were in a far better position to capitalise on Brexit. The lack of a clear path to Brexit from either the right or the left didn't help either and far left literature that said the economic and political crisis following Brexit would be fit the left rang alarm bells. I am pessimistic about the prospects of reform of the EU but supporting the status quo was the lesser evil.

I'm not sure about that. I think we will see in the near future that it wasn't as bad as many feared. That is unless the EU goes for retaliation because of lost authority and destroys the last of it's credibility along the way.

If the leave campaign had been dominated by the far left or the centre left and had a well thought out exit strategy it is much more likely I would have voted leave unless I thought they were really dangerous/extreme. My mind changed about four times in the course of the campaign and I didn't let my principles blind me to the situation, but it was not an easy decision. I had several long discussions with my dad as my parents couldn't see a case for leaving the EU not related to racism or xenophobia and were hardline remain (even if they knew the vote was sort of a joke about how much and how quickly we were going to get screwed over). it was clear just how much misinformation there was around it and how poorly prepared the country (working class and ruling class alike) would be for Brexit.

I would imagine most on the far left and right voting for leave despite who was leading the campaign. It's anyones game now that the vote is through. One Finnish leftist writer who is a MEP wrote that the EU, not known for it's respect of referendums, probably won't let GB leave, but will bully you with outrageous demands and you will have a new vote if you will accept the humiliating demands or a lesser humiliation and stay part of the EU.

I went to bed early in the hope of sleeping through till the morning but got up at midnight and stayed up till the result was announced in the morning listening to the radio first in headphones, but then my parents got up as they couldn't sleep either. I knew it was going to be close but It was a shock honestly. When morning came I went out and just tried to be proactive and get stuff done rather than let it fester and drown in the news. My parents took the result (and the ensuing labour leadership crisis) badly.

Best comfort your parents and tell them it's not the end of the world.

 

[Jumi]

It might not be such a good option.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/norways-model-brexit-051506573.html

I don't really see the problems here, Norway not being a part of the TTIP is just great for them. We don't need to lower our food safety and privacy standards to US levels. Though I think most of the deal is still secret, so we don't know what us EU folks are getting into.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

TTIP is stalled at the moment with no obvious way forward.
that is one agreement the UK would be well out of.

NONE of the exit negotiations have any thing to do with what our trading relationship will be after we leave.
Those negotiations can not start until we are out.

If we want to join the free trade area, freedom of movement comes with the package. These new negotiations will take years not months to conclude. In the mean time we will trade as a third country. With out any of our previous benefits. And with out any say as to how the EU develops in the meantime.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If we want to join the free trade are, freedom of movement comes with the package.

It doesn't look like the EU is going to compromise on this point. We could end up with something very similar to what we have now, which is going to really annoy the people who voted "leave".

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It doesn't look like the EU is going to compromise on this point. We could end up with something very similar to what we have now, which is going to really annoy the people who voted "leave".

Absolutely ... but we lose any control of the situation from that time on.
If they agree new rules or regulations among themselves, we have to obey as do Norway Switzerland and Canada.

If at some future time we want to rejoin, we would have to join the Euro, as all new members do. (And as would Scotland)

I can not see any benefit from our leaving over where we are now.
Except perhaps for what would be a very expensive notion of greater sovereignty.

But sovereignty at the expense of power and wealth and any more freedom seems pointless.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

(And as would Scotland)

It will be interesting to see what happens with Scotland. It seems like the EU were making sympathetic noises but have told Nicola Sturgeon they will only debate with the UK as a whole. Maybe they will go for another independence referendum before the 2 years is up, but I don't know where that would leave them in relation to the EU.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It will be interesting to see what happens with Scotland. It seems like the EU were making sympathetic noises but have told Nicola Sturgeon they will only debate with the UK as a whole. Maybe they will go for another independence referendum before the 2 years is up, but I don't know where that would leave them in relation to the EU.

A number of states but especially Spain, do not want the EU to encourage countries to split. They have the looming problem of the Basques and catalonia to worry about. not that they have a government with a majority at all.

It only takes one country to veto a new member state...

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Serious question. I don't live in Great Britain so really don't have an opinion on this. My question is 'why is it a bad thing for Great Britain to become independent of the EUROPEAN union? Should they have control of their country. Not trying to debate, just want to know why .

I completely understand what you're trying to ask, most of us in Britain were trying to figure this out too lol

Anyway, in terms of the UK, we still had sovereignty while we were in the EU. We posted our own interest rates, controlled our own currency (As much as one can do in an international market) elected our own leaders and decided on when to go to war. None of that has changed by leaving the EU.

The ultimate problem with the start of the leave campaign, going back 20-25 years was a dislike, distrust and child like hatred for the EU by certain Brits, from specific, middle class, former conservative backgrounds. In fact, UKIP was started on an anti EU basis, rather than anti asian, black or Muslim. And their entire argument has been based on, "too many non Brits are coming into our country". They completely ignored the financial, economic andt rade benefits of being in the EU. Which is why the senior leadership of the leave campaign is dropping like flies. Most of them were part of the campaign to make a name for themselves, not to actually have a plan on what would happen.

Leaving the EU has had the impact that most sensible people predicted, a drop in the market and an eventual increase in trading prices and tariffs. Now, no one in the leave campaign actually has the balls to trigger article 50 (the process which starts the UK from leaving the EU over a period of 2 years). It's basiclaly one big face palm moment.

Grin... , so democracy failed.... back to Monarchy .....

Gigglez

Not really, it's been more of a failure of the so called politicians and intelligentsia in our country to put forward coherent arguments.

It would appear the Leave leadership didn't expect to win and thus made no plans.

Agreed.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

It will be interesting to see what happens with Scotland. It seems like the EU were making sympathetic noises but have told Nicola Sturgeon they will only debate with the UK as a whole. Maybe they will go for another independence referendum before the 2 years is up, but I don't know where that would leave them in relation to the EU.

Scotland can not actually push for another referendum. They don't have the power. They can however raise the issue with the English parliament but that's about it.

What can happen is that Scotland can push for another independence referendum as you said. I doubt it will happen during this period though.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Nah...... :
Cameron is out because he actually invited a referendum that will split Scotland from England/Wales, will cause untold difficulties in Northern Ireland, will cause us to leave the EU......... when he dkidn't actually have to run the referendum. That's political suicide, and he must be deeply embarassed by such a serious mistake.

Boris, like most Brits, believes we should leave, he would have made a tough, hard exit deal with the EU and the Brits trust his straightforward, honest character even when they disagree with him. Boris is going to be something very big here, quite soon..... He just knows when to stand back after being stabbed by a scoundrel who he once trusted. Churchill stood back for years, and despite all his errors we trusted him, because he was genuine, just like Boris is.

If you think that millions of Britons have changed their minds in a week because we know it's all going to be a bit duifficult, then you just don'#t know us.


Who told you that? We knew that the pound would fall away, but look!....... it's coming back faster than we thought it would!
This is the week that Brit Politics needed.
Actually, this is the year that Brit Politics needs....... a good shake up of our whole political system.

And at the end of it all, I reckon that we will turn to people like Boris on both sides of the House, because we're fed up with sly dodgers, and liars, and cheats. You'll see......

That last part is a joke I hope.

 

[David1967]

I completely understand what you're trying to ask, most of us in Britain were trying to figure this out too lol

Anyway, in terms of the UK, we still had sovereignty while we were in the EU. We posted our own interest rates, controlled our own currency (As much as one can do in an international market) elected our own leaders and decided on when to go to war. None of that has changed by leaving the EU.

The ultimate problem with the start of the leave campaign, going back 20-25 years was a dislike, distrust and child like hatred for the EU by certain Brits, from specific, middle class, former conservative backgrounds. In fact, UKIP was started on an anti EU basis, rather than anti asian, black or Muslim. And their entire argument has been based on, "too many non Brits are coming into our country". They completely ignored the financial, economic andt rade benefits of being in the EU. Which is why the senior leadership of the leave campaign is dropping like flies. Most of them were part of the campaign to make a name for themselves, not to actually have a plan on what would happen.

Leaving the EU has had the impact that most sensible people predicted, a drop in the market and an eventual increase in trading prices and tariffs. Now, no one in the leave campaign actually has the balls to trigger article 50 (the process which starts the UK from leaving the EU over a period of 2 years). It's basiclaly one big face palm moment.



Not really, it's been more of a failure of the so called politicians and intelligentsia in our country to put forward coherent arguments.



Agreed.

Thank you for answering my question. That gives me a better understanding of the situation over there.

 

[oldbadger]

That last part is a joke I hope.

Certainly not.

This last week has been a triumph of democratic process, shown for all to see, but some lks are just too negative ion outlook to understanmd that.

The UK was split over EU membership.
There was a referendum.
The majority vote produced a decision.
We didn't have to fight each other.
We didn't riot in the streets to achieve this.
We just put a cross on a voting slip.
The most famous name in the Leave campaign was Boris Johnson.
When he realised that that the Remain members in his party, plus some insidious names close to him would not support his name as Exit-Leader (PM) he just stood back.

On the other hand, we have voices who don't think that the working people should have had the right to decide. Now that is a far more insidious and serious suggestion.
We have voices that put down Boris, which is a real joke, because some of those voices were shouting down and insulting Mrs Thatcher on the day of her death....... and Mrs Thatcher used to beat and bash deals out of the EU for Britain that were so good, that if she had been ruler today, the EU deakl would be so generous that us Brits would probably have voted to remain! What a delightful joke. And no.... I never voted conservative, and I didn't like poll-tax, I just know when to respect folks' courage.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The most famous name in the Leave campaign was Boris Johnson.
When he realised that that the Remain members in his party, plus some insidious names close to him would not support his name as Exit-Leader (PM) he just stood back.

You make it sound like a noble decision, it wasn't, Boris got fitted up by his so-called mate Gove and had no choice in the matter. They are just a bunch of self-serving toffs.