I'm sorry, I must have misread your post! {I could have sworn I saw the word "atman" in there}
My apologies.
Addressing this part of the post:
Buddha said that Nibbana can be experienced in the here & now.
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Can a Buddhist believe in God?
- Thread starter Sand Dancer
- Start date
My apologies.
Addressing this part of the post:
What about the other 99+% of people?
Oh gee, the only thing that comes to mind at the moment is Dhammapada 12.
Attavagga: The Self
Pali:
Dhp_utf8
I need to follow Dhammapada 12 and renew my self-control, so I'll quit misreading posts!
All I can do at the moment is cite the above linked Dhammapada 12:
163. Easy to do are things that are bad and harmful to oneself. But exceedingly difficult to do are things that are good and beneficial.
164. Whoever, on account of perverted views, scorns the Teaching of the Perfected Ones, the Noble and Righteous Ones that fool, like the bamboo, produces fruits only for self destruction.
165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another.
164. Whoever, on account of perverted views, scorns the Teaching of the Perfected Ones, the Noble and Righteous Ones that fool, like the bamboo, produces fruits only for self destruction.
165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another.
I was talking about good people that never reach Nibbana (or were even aware of the concept). My point being nibbana is very rare to reach in one lifetime.
Krill The Unwashed
Member
There is a story my late bhikkhu grandfather told me once about this subject. I don't know the English version, so I can't quote it or find citation for you. My late grandfather didn't speak English, and didn't get his Buddhism from a book or the internet.
The story goes that one day after Buddha had spoken to a small crowd of people, three men came up to the Buddha one after another to ask Buddha a private question. Five of Buddha's monks were sitting with the Buddha relaxing with him.
The first man was an atheist/materialist and he came up to the Buddha and prostrated himself 3 times with his hands clasped and then asked: "Teacher, does God exist?"
To which the Buddha replied: "No, God does not exist."
Upon hearing the Buddha's answer, the atheist was happy and he thanked the Buddha saying: "Oh thank you teacher. I knew it! I was right! I will follow your way." And he left.
The second man was a theist. He came before the Buddha, clasped his hands, and prostrated himself 3 times and asked: "Teacher, does God exist?"
To which the Buddha replied: "Yes, God exists."
The theist became happy and said back: "Oh thank you teacher! I knew it! I was right! I will follow your way." And he left.
The third man came, he clasped his hands, and prostrated himself before the Buddha 3 times. Then sat quietly in meditation for some time. Then he asked the Buddha: "Teacher, does God exist?"
The Buddha, closed his eyes, and saying nothing, went into samadhi.
The third man said to the Buddha: "Thank you." And he left.
When the three men all left, the Buddha's 5 monks became confused and they said to the Buddha: "Master, three men came to ask you the same question, and to each you gave a different answer. Which are we to believe?"
The Buddha said to his monks in return:
"The first man was an atheist who did not believe in God. So I confirmed his convictions by telling him that God does not exist, in order that he live rightly on the Noble Path. The second man was a theist who believed in Gods. So I confirmed his convictions by telling him that God exists, in order that he live rightly on the Noble Path. The third man needed no answer to live rightly on the Noble Path."
The lesson or essence of the story is that in Buddhism - Theravada at least - the "belief" qua belief in God or the disbelief in God is irrelevant. For, the very essence of the Buddha's Way is Kamma/Vipaka and not belief. Kamma meaning our action or causal input in life, and Vipaka meaning the Fruit our causal output we reap born from such Kamma.
The personal belief a person has is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the individual understands the 4 Noble Truths and tries to put the 8 Noble Path in living motion.
Belief or disbelief in God - in and of itself - does not have a causal (karmic) effect in real life. neither the belief or disbelief in Gods feeds you, quenches your thirst, provides a home for your family, alleviates the suffering of the old, sick, and diseased. Our actions and deeds in life do.
If a person must believe in gods to live rightly and justly, than his belief in gods is an Upaya (a means) to get him to live rightly. If a person must be an atheist, scientist, materialist , to live rightly, then his lack of belief in god is an Upaya (a means) for him to live rightly.
To support the essence of this story, there is another story told.
One day, after the Buddha was teaching to a crowd, and the crowd had dispersed, a Brahmanist (early Hindu) came up to the Buddha and said to him: "Teacher, I was sitting in the crowd listening to your teachings. I think you are very smart! I challenge you to prove to me that Brahma and the gods do not exist."
And so the Buddha proceed to logically explain to the Brahmanist how Brahma and the gods are not real as best as he can.
After the Buddha had finished his explanations, the Brahmanist fell on his knees before the Buddha and said to Buddha: "Oh Lord, I have been a foolish Brahmanist believing in delusions of gods my whole life. How I was wrong! After hearing your splendid logical explanations, I say to you that I am today an atheist/materialist! Never again will I believe in gods or karma. From now on, I'm going to live a hedonistic immoral life! Thank you!" And the guy begins to leave very happy.
Before the guy left the Buddha stopped him and said: "Hold on a second! I lied. Brahma is very real, and so is the law of karma you were taught by your people. I was just testing you. You shouldn't believe everything you hear. Let me explain to you how the Gods are real and how Karma is real."
And the Buddha began to explain to the guy as best as he can how Brahma was real, and how Karma was real. After the Buddha explained - completely contradicting himself - the man kneels before Buddha and says: "Oh Lord, you are brilliant! I've never hear it explained like that before! I was always unsure, but after hearing you speak, I am now sure that Brahma is real and that Karma is real. I promise for my own good that I will live a moral life and cultivate good karmic deeds!"
So the lesson of that story is that the Buddha will often contradict himself, and will teach and say just about anything as a means - UPAYA - to get a person to live rightly and justly. The belief a person has or may have, or may need, is just an upaya (means to an end).
In the West, a simple example of using this same Upaya (method/means) is with little children and Santa Claus. If the child is at a young level of understanding where they believe in Santa Clause, and if the child's belief in Santa Claus helps the child be a good and disciplined child, than the belief in Santa Claus is a good Upaya to cause the child to be good and not bad. The belief itself is not important. What is important to any parent is that your 3-5 year old child is good and not bad.
And so, if a person has a level of understanding where they need the belief in God, then you allow the person to have that belief, according to their personal level of development and understanding.
Conversely, if the person's level of understanding allows him or her to not need to believe in gods, or spirits, to be good and just in life, then you allow the person that freedom.
Belief is unimportant. Deeds and the Fruit of our actions in life, is what matters.
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Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Seems to be a quote from Osho.
Yeah...the belief in God is actually pretty important in Buddhism, particularly if said God is a Creator, in which case the Buddha said "No".
Yeah...the belief in God is actually pretty important in Buddhism, particularly if said God is a Creator, in which case the Buddha said "No".
apophenia
Well-Known Member
Exactly how do you know that ?
I know this is often said. People tend to mythologise, exaggerate, overstate and idealise ...
But seriously, how could you or anybody know that ?
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
I think I would have liked your grandfather.
Krill The Unwashed
Member
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The obvious answer is because I never hear about people discussing themselves in a state anywhere near Nibbana. And essentially almost everyone talks about having a long way to go before they reach that state. And I don't observe people with that level of detachment and peace.
So the answer is; I know by obvious deduction.
Where did Buddha say 'No' to a creator God. I always thought he stood mute on the question.
So you expected to hear of people being in Nibbana? I don't think that is a given.
You missed my point which was it is quite uncommon among the masses.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
"The personal soul, continuity, the Skandhas, causation, atoms, the supreme spirit, the ruler, the creator, [they are] discriminations in the Mind-only."
"Some conceive Nirvana to consist in the extinction of merit and demerit; some in the destruction of the passions by means of knowledge; some in regarding Isvara as the free creator of the world. Some think that the world is born of interaction and that there is no [special] cause other than this cause, and clinging to it they have no awakening because of stupidity, and they conceive Nirvana to consist in this non-awakening."
"Things have no beginning, no end; they are abiding in the aspect of reality; there is no creator, nothing doing in the world, but the logicians do not understand."
Lankavatara Sutra
dyanaprajna2011
Dharmapala
Did the Buddha accept the existence of what some call 'gods'? Yes. Did the Buddha accept the idea of a supreme creator god? Absolutely not. The idea of 'god' works completely different in Buddhism than in any other religion. It's not so easy to just say 'yes', or 'no'.
I wonder. There may well be other religions with similar uses for the concept, even if only because it has often been borrowed from other religions when used in Buddhism.
In any case, I don't think a creator god is at all an universal or even a particularly common concept among religions in general.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by apophenia
Exactly how do you know that ?
I know this is often said. People tend to mythologise, exaggerate, overstate and idealise ...
But seriously, how could you or anybody know that ?
"Obvious deduction".
Huh.
What makes you think that everyone who experiences nirvana ( that is very loose language ) talks publicly about it, or writes books about it, or gives public lectures ?
Your "obvious deduction" would rely on that being true. What reason do you have for believing that is true ?
I find a problem with people pointing to scriptures of ancient religions to prove a point. It seems everyone can find a reason for believing almost anything (i'm exaggerating but you get my point).
I've seem enough Hindu vs. Hindu, Christian vs. Christian, Buddhist vs. Buddhist scriptural debates to make me form that opinion. I'm not usually swayed by scriptural arguments.
On to this particular issue, my personal opinion is that the Buddha was trying to detach Himself from such metaphysical speculations. His concern was practical, we may vex forever on unanswerable metaphysical questions, but the job we do control is learning right thought in this lifetime.
IMO, the best post in this thread was #93 by Krill the Unwashed. This well agrees with my thoughts on the subject after many years of hearing all thoughts from Buddhists and commentators on Buddhism. You may think differently but I think your view is covered by one of the examples in post #93.