Can a Christian Get a Tattoo? What Does the Bible say?

[RedDragon94]

Is that true?

Yes, God wants us to live with him and enjoy him forever [edit] through the person of the Messiah.

 

[Tumah]

Yes, God wants us to live with him and enjoy him forever [edit] through the person of the Messiah.

Well, I agree with that anyway.

 

[Sleeppy]

Matthew 8:22
'Follow me, and suffer the dead to bury their own dead.'

Leviticus is a testament of men, foremost. These were the sons of Man, who like Cain, murdered (or enslaved) those with dissenting views, and/or because there was profit. They then boasted in God's name (as men do on occasion).

Men tend to worship death; being them that haven't overcome death; being murderers. And so, the truth behind this command in Leviticus is this: Death should not precede life.

@Deeje

 

[john landes]

According to Leviticus, tattoos are taboo. But then, so is eating pork and picking up sticks on a Saturday. I suggest the excellent book, Seeing Through Christianity to understand how the whole religion is man-made.

 

[Deeje]

Neither of them are correct. It says they "will bless", not "will be blessed". That's a different verb conjugation. Its saying that when someone wants to bless another, they'll say something like, "you should be as great as Abraham".

OK, now I am confused. Do you accept the way the Orthodox Jewish Bible translates that passage?

Gen 12:1-3
"Now Hashem had said unto Avram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from the bais avicha, unto ha’aretz that I will show thee;

2 And I will make of thee a goy gadol (great nation), and I will bless thee, and make thy shem great; and thou shalt be a brocha (blessing);

3 And I will bless the one blessing you, and curse him that curses you; and kol mishpochot haadamah shall be blessed through you.[T.N. There is a brocha in this verse that many do not know but that every true follower of Moshiach should know.]"

I cannot purport to know what a lot of this translation is saying because it puts some things into English, but not all.....but the bolded part seems to be saying that "kol mishpochot haadamah" is "all the families or people of the earth" will be blessed through Abraham.?

I'm just giving an example, although an appropriate one given Israel's long exile among the nations. The point being that it can mean anything and there is no indication that it means what you are claiming it to mean. In fact what you are claiming it means doesn't even really fit.

Israel's long history of breaking their covenants with their God basically caused their exile in the first place, did it not? I see that the Jews are described in scripture as a rather "stiff necked" people. (Deut 9:4-14) Do you think God still sees the Jews of today as a "stiff necked" people?

Acceptance of G-d's reign.

Do you have a mental image of how you see the kingdom of God taking up its reign? How will it happen according to scripture as you understand it?
This is why I thought of Daniel 2:44. According to Daniel, God's kingdom will come in a blaze of glory, crushing all earthly kingdoms out of existence and replacing them.
I believe that this rulership will be earthly but I see the "kingdom of priests" as a heavenly arrangement.
Is the Jewish expectation all earthly?

Don't you think accuracy is important?

Absolutely, that is why I was surprised that you criticized the rendering of the translation you recommended that I use. (NIV)

I personally prefer the New World Translation....I think it is far more accurate in keeping with the meanings of original language words than the others...but that is just me. Both the NIV and the KJV are very inaccurate in a lot of their renderings, IMO.

 

[Deeje]

Well then it is about us doing right by the Mosaic law from your point of view, go be a Jew.

I am happy to be the same religion as Jesus.

He did not come to start a new religion, but to clean up the old one and fulfill the law, freeing people from the curse of not being able to keep it. (Gal 3:13)
He showed us how to worship his God and Father in the right way. Love of God and neighbor was the primary requirement. Promoting the interests of God's kingdom was also high on the list. (Matt 6:33)

But it definitely ties into the condition of a person's heart.

Absolutely. The condition of a person's heart is not defined by their appearance. Diamonds in the rough are not something the average person would recognize.
God does, and will make sure that right-hearted people are given every opportunity to receive the kingdom message. How they respond to it is up to them. (John 6:44)

Oh, now you're pushing the Prosperity Gospel? Well you should consider Jesus who was homeless beggar for three years by his own choice.

No sorry, I am not even close to doing that. All we were promised was life's necessities, not luxuries. (Matt 6:33) Faith means that we will put God's will first in our lives and rely on him to supply what we need, not what we want.

Jesus was not a homeless beggar. He was a rabbi who was supported by the generosity of his own kinsmen. Hospitality was an expected norm among the Israelites. Jesus always had food and lodging and so did the apostles. (Luke 22:35) Only when opposition began to escalate did the Jews renege on their hospitality.

So Haitian believers aren't righteous because they're poor? I'll tell you what that actually means. It means if God is in control, which he is, then whoever seeks his righteousness finds their fulfillment in life from knowing Jesus. It doesn't mean that God will always provide a way out of poverty. Have you ever heard of the rich young ruler or the illustration of the camel trying to get through the eye of a needle?

You seem unable to grasp what Jesus said. You swing from poverty to riches as if there is nothing in between. The poor have always existed and those of little means who put the interests of God's kingdom first, will never suffer want to the point of starvation or homelessness....Christians will share what little they have with their brothers and sisters. Being poor has nothing to do with anything.
The promise Jesus made was to provide what is necessary for life if we put spiritual interests first....is it true? It is true in my brotherhood. (Matt 6:25-33)

They also made sacrifices every year, you wanna go back to doing that?

Jesus came to offer a permanent sacrifice, so why would I?

Seeing as how Jesus did come down to our level in person, yes.

Do you know why Jesus is called "the last Adam"? Why was his sacrifice necessary?

He had to, he was calling sinners to righteousness, not religious people. You think that the nonreligious are gonna identify with things like predestination and reprobation? No, they're going to identify with love and forgiveness.

I agree but that doesn't mean we have no rules to live by. Non-religious people can just as easily come to Jesus if they are touched by his message. There is no such thing as predestination, so no one is ruled out of contention for everlasting life unless they rule themselves out by their own choices.

Because they were under the law and it is for freedom that Christ set us free. And Israel failed to keep that law. Didn't they?

Yes they did...often, and suffered the loss because of failing to keep their covenant with God. The freedom that comes from being a Christians doesn't mean that we are free to do as we please. We still must respect God's laws and the principles upon which they are based.

Your message is that people have to be good enough to come to God and that people who dress differently than you are somehow unclean. You're a legalist.

I hear all this kind of speech from those who want to justify their disobedience, but it comes from ignorance. If the way we dress was not important, then why would God include those things in his laws? Freedom from the law is not a license to sin. Christians have rules too.

No one is good enough for God. We're are all inked full body in his eyes. (Romans 3:10-11) It's not anything that a person can do on their own initiative.

I am assuming that you have tattoos that you love and want to justify?
We are ALL sinners in God's eyes deserving of death, but God sent his son to take the bullet for us. That puts us all on the same level of forgiveness....but it won't cover what we do as a willful and deliberate act of disobedience. Those are the sins God will not forgive unless there is genuine repentance.

We have no right to present ourselves to God in a disrespectful way...either by how we dress, how we speak and how we treat others. We should reflect the teachings and attitude of our master and teacher.

I guess that's why the gift of tongues is so important. No, both the message and the messenger have power through the Holy Spirit. (Acts 1:8)

Speaking in tongues accomplishes what? Why was that among the gifts given to the first Christians?
Please tell me how that works in a beneficial way today?

Once again sir, Jesus had no form or majesty that we should be attracted to him. (Isaiah 53:2)

They disbelieved because they were so self righteous, not because they were too bad for grace.

I agree, but you seem to lack the ability to find middle ground. These are opposite ends of the scale....most Christians are somewhere in between. There is no room for self righteousness, nor is there forgiveness for those who want to keep sinning on a "once saved, always saved" ticket. There is a standard that is acceptable to God and one that isn't....we should never try to justify "our" standard as if God has to just accept us the way we are. He doesn't....he expects us to "strip off the old personality" with its practices and "put on the new one". (Eph 4:20-24)

All that Jesus wants is to impute the Holy Spirit into sinners so that they can be forgiven of their sin.

And you think he will forgive those who are unrepentant and have no desire to change their life course? Really? (Matt 7:21-23)

The sin is not in the way you present the Gospel, it's whether or not you do present the Gospel. Our message is the same, yes, it's just you think people have to be good enough to accept that message. And I'm telling you the fact that people are not good enough is the first point of the Gospel. (Luke 5:32)

Rubbish. Just because you are a sinner doesn't mean that you can't change. God will not accept that old personality with its practices.

Luke 13:23, 24
"...a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."

Better think again.

 

[RedDragon94]

I am happy to be the same religion as Jesus.

He did not come to start a new religion, but to clean up the old one and fulfill the law, freeing people from the curse of not being able to keep it. (Gal 3:13)
He showed us how to worship his God and Father in the right way. Love of God and neighbor was the primary requirement. Promoting the interests of God's kingdom was also high on the list. (Matt 6:33)

Jesus transcends religion.

Absolutely. The condition of a person's heart is not defined by their appearance. Diamonds in the rough are not something the average person would recognize.
God does, and will make sure that right-hearted people are given every opportunity to receive the kingdom message. How they respond to it is up to them. (John 6:44)

(Romans 8:30) God calls the sinner by the Holy Spirit through the Christian. If God has not chosen that person then they will not repent, our responses are actually pre-ordained by God.

No sorry, I am not even close to doing that. All we were promised was life's necessities, not luxuries. (Matt 6:33) Faith means that we will put God's will first in our lives and rely on him to supply what we need, not what we want.

Fine. And the truth is God does provide for the needs of those people anyway. (Matthew 5:45) We're just so used to thinking that American culture is the bare necessities when it's not.

There is no such thing as predestination, so no one is ruled out of contention for everlasting life unless they rule themselves out by their own choices.

Ephesians 1:11

The freedom that comes from being a Christians doesn't mean that we are free to do as we please. We still must respect God's laws and the principles upon which they are based.

(Romans 8:3) It's the wrong mentality to have. If we could keep the law perfectly Christ wouldn't have had to come.

If the way we dress was not important, then why would God include those things in his laws?

It's more of an issue of idolatry than it is dress code. If a person cares more about impressing people (or God) with their clothes that's an issue of pride and self worship. Because a person is not relying on God's grace with that way of thinking. And yes, that should convict you.

Christians have rules too.

Christians have the Spirit to guide them. (Romans 7:6)

I am assuming that you have tattoos that you love and want to justify?

No I just know a Pharisee when I see one.

Those are the sins God will not forgive unless there is genuine repentance.

Mark 3:28-29
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to go through your whole life rejecting the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus and dying committed to that position.

We have no right to present ourselves to God in a disrespectful way...either by how we dress, how we speak and how we treat others. We should reflect the teachings and attitude of our master and teacher.

Let me explain something to you. Everything that exists is created by God, God wants us to enjoy his creation. Why? Because it's his artwork. Therefore it's okay to get a picture of something edifying on your body like a rose or a heart or even... *gasp* Your wife's name, or... *gasp* Jesus' name. Because all that was created by and belongs to God. I want to remind you that Jesus also drank and pissed off the Pharisees all the time. (Matthew 11:19)

Speaking in tongues accomplishes what?

Speaking in tongues is speaking in different languages, it accomplishes the advancement of the Gospel.

Please tell me how that works in a beneficial way today?

The Gospel still needs to be preached around the world. And it needs to be re-contextualized because we are moving into the post church age. (Romans 10:14-15)

I agree, but you seem to lack the ability to find middle ground. These are opposite ends of the scale....most Christians are somewhere in between. There is no room for self righteousness, nor is there forgiveness for those who want to keep sinning on a "once saved, always saved" ticket. There is a standard that is acceptable to God and one that isn't....we should never try to justify "our" standard as if God has to just accept us the way we are. He doesn't....he expects us to "strip off the old personality" with its practices and "put on the new one". (Eph 4:20-24)

(Romans 8:29) You think it's simply a personality issue when it's something much deeper. You cannot make people get right by telling them to get right. God must do a work in them.

And you think he will forgive those who are unrepentant and have no desire to change their life course? Really? (Matt 7:21-23)

(Ephesians 2:8-10) Jesus does the work in us and through us on his time, we don't have to be perfect. The command to be perfect as our heavenly father is is a goal that we will never be able to reach this side of eternity. If we could we would have a reason to boast.

Rubbish. Just because you are a sinner doesn't mean that you can't change. God will not accept that old personality with its practices.

Oh listen, it's much worse than that. (Jeremiah 17:9)

Luke 13:23, 24
"...a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."

If Christianity is based on our performance we are all done. Because that means we have to be as good as God. Which is impossible. (Matthew 11:28-30)

 

[Tumah]

OK, now I am confused. Do you accept the way the Orthodox Jewish Bible translates that passage?

You may be surprised to know that the Orthodox Jewish Bible is actually a Messianic Bible. Do you feel that calling it by a name that suggests it is used by Orthodox Jews is misleading? Messianics at their best.

Gen 12:1-3
"Now Hashem had said unto Avram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from the bais avicha, unto ha’aretz that I will show thee;

2 And I will make of thee a goy gadol (great nation), and I will bless thee, and make thy shem great; and thou shalt be a brocha (blessing);

3 And I will bless the one blessing you, and curse him that curses you; and kol mishpochot haadamah shall be blessed through you.[T.N. There is a brocha in this verse that many do not know but that every true follower of Moshiach should know.]"

I cannot purport to know what a lot of this translation is saying because it puts some things into English, but not all.....but the bolded part seems to be saying that "kol mishpochot haadamah" is "all the families or people of the earth" will be blessed through Abraham.?

No, this translation is wrong. The word ונברכו means something like "and they will receive blessing". Had it wanted to say, "and they shall be blessed" it should have said ונתברכו or as it says in Gen. 22:18 והתברכו. Its a different conjugation.
So ונברכו בך means "and they will bless with/in you" meaning when they want to bless someone, they will use you.

Israel's long history of breaking their covenants with their God basically caused their exile in the first place, did it not?

That's right.

I see that the Jews are described in scripture as a rather "stiff necked" people. (Deut 9:4-14) Do you think God still sees the Jews of today as a "stiff necked" people?

I guess so. How could we retain G-d's way in the face of so much adversity over 2,000 years without being stubborn?

Do you have a mental image of how you see the kingdom of God taking up its reign? How will it happen according to scripture as you understand it?

G-d is already the King. Its the people that just have to recognize it. A king whose reign is only recognized by a few people is not an effective king.The more people that accept the reign of the king, the further out the reign of the king extends. When everyone in the world accepts G-d as the King, than His reign is complete.

This is why I thought of Daniel 2:44. According to Daniel, God's kingdom will come in a blaze of glory, crushing all earthly kingdoms out of existence and replacing them.

There is no where in the verse where it refers to "G-d's kingdom". It says G-d will establish a kingdom, but it doesn't refer to it as G-d's kingdom. It means G-d will establish the kingdom of the messiah which will ipso facto negate other ruler-ships. That is Zech. 8:23. There is no need for other rulers if everyone is united under one ruler.

I believe that this rulership will be earthly but I see the "kingdom of priests" as a heavenly arrangement.

I don't understand what you're talking about. The "kingdom of priests" is not a messianic prophecy. Ex. 19:5 says, "if you listen to My voice and you keep my covenant... and you will be for me a kingdom of priests..." So this has been fulfilled multiple times throughout history.

Is the Jewish expectation all earthly?

Can you explain the difference? We don't use these terms (earthly heavenly) in this context, in Judaism.

Absolutely, that is why I was surprised that you criticized the rendering of the translation you recommended that I use. (NIV)

I personally prefer the New World Translation....I think it is far more accurate in keeping with the meanings of original language words than the others...but that is just me. Both the NIV and the KJV are very inaccurate in a lot of their renderings, IMO.

I'm not saying the NIV or KJV is perfect, I'm just saying they are better than that other one.
How can you tell which one is keeping to the original meaning if you are not familiar with the Hebrew?

 

[Deeje]

Jesus transcends religion.

Jesus belonged to the Jewish faith. God separated out a people for his own possession so that he could operate through them to show the world who the true God was, and what it meant to render acceptable worship...he also demonstrated what it meant when their worship became unacceptable. He hasn't changed to suit those who want to use Jesus' sacrifice as an excuse to keep sinning.

(Romans 8:30) God calls the sinner by the Holy Spirit through the Christian. If God has not chosen that person then they will not repent, our responses are actually pre-ordained by God.

What God foreordained is not pre-destined, because otherwise free will is a farce. What God foreordained is the outworking of his purpose....individuals must align themselves with the standards set out in the Bible to become part of that purpose. We have to qualify for everlasting life by exercising faith in the blood of Christ. Those who make no attempt to clean up their act will not qualify to be citizens in his kingdom. "Once saved, always saved" is wishful thinking. (Matt 24:13)

Heb 10:26-29
"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,  but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition.  Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three.  How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?"

And the truth is God does provide for the needs of those people anyway. (Matthew 5:45) We're just so used to thinking that American culture is the bare necessities when it's not.

I am not American thankfully.

(Romans 8:3) It's the wrong mentality to have. If we could keep the law perfectly Christ wouldn't have had to come.

You have a very black and white view of things. Who said anything about keeping God's law perfectly? He knows we can't but he also knows when people are doing their best.
You can't blame sin for what you do, because sinful acts are a choice. According to Jesus, there will be "many" at the judgment who feel confident that they practice the right kind of Christianity....yet he tells them that he has NEVER known them.....what does NEVER mean? (Matt 7:21-23) Why does he tell people who are "good" Christians in their own eyes that they have failed the test?

It's more of an issue of idolatry than it is dress code. If a person cares more about impressing people (or God) with their clothes that's an issue of pride and self worship. Because a person is not relying on God's grace with that way of thinking. And yes, that should convict you.

Very black and white again. If we do not respect God or his place of worship then we will not be worshipping him in the way he told his people to worship him. Look what he expected from the Jews...do you think he requires any less of us? Did Jesus say so?

Christians have the Spirit to guide them. (Romans 7:6)

Among other things, yes. But when you observe the practices of some it makes you wonder what kind of spirit they are imbibing?

No I just know a Pharisee when I see one.

Then you must consider Jesus a Pharisee. He laid down many requirements for Christians.....sounds like you think he didn't teach any.

Let me explain something to you. Everything that exists is created by God, God wants us to enjoy his creation. Why? Because it's his artwork. Therefore it's okay to get a picture of something edifying on your body like a rose or a heart or even... *gasp* Your wife's name, or... *gasp* Jesus' name. Because all that was created by and belongs to God.

Sounds like justification to me. I think NO tattoos means NO tattoos.

I want to remind you that Jesus also drank and pissed off the Pharisees all the time. (Matthew 11:19)

Nice language and terminology for a Christian.

Your Jesus isn't my Jesus, so we will see when the real Jesus stands up, won't we?

Speaking in tongues is speaking in different languages, it accomplishes the advancement of the Gospel.

Where? Nowhere that I can see. It happens in little charismatic cloisters behind closed doors. That is not how it was used in the first century. It can so easily be faked.

The Gospel still needs to be preached around the world. And it needs to be re-contextualized because we are moving into the post church age. (Romans 10:14-15)

You know the last time someone from any church called on me to offer me the "good news of God's kingdom"? Try NEVER. No church where I have ever lived, preaches except to the converted inside their own building.
Mormons have come to my door on occasion but there is no mention of the kingdom and they come with a different gospel.
Jehovah's Witnesses are the only united global brotherhood of believers who are known the world over for their preaching. They have one message in all languages.

You cannot make people get right by telling them to get right.

Yet Jesus did it all the time...and so did the apostles. (2 Pet 2:20-22) He told many to stop sinning. Forgiveness only comes when we stop deliberately breaking God's laws.(Acts 3:19)

(Ephesians 2:8-10) Jesus does the work in us and through us on his time, we don't have to be perfect. The command to be perfect as our heavenly father is is a goal that we will never be able to reach this side of eternity. If we could we would have a reason to boast.

Phil 2:12-15......there is no excuse to sin.

If Christianity is based on our performance we are all done. Because that means we have to be as good as God. Which is impossible. (Matthew 11:28-30)

"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?....
Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”  You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?...You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone....Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." (James 2:14-26)[/quote]

 

[RedDragon94]

Jesus belonged to the Jewish faith.

So I guess that means your Jewish?

God separated out a people for his own possession so that he could operate through them to show the world who the true God was, and what it meant to render acceptable worship...he also demonstrated what it meant when their worship became unacceptable.

So Israel thwarted the will and plan of God by their disobedience?

free will is a farce.

*nods*... Basically.

What God foreordained is not pre-destined,

Then what does the word foreordain mean?

What God foreordained is the outworking of his purpose....individuals must align themselves with the standards set out in the Bible to become part of that purpose.

So God is not sovereign (or in control of) redemption then. Whereas Psalm 27:1-3 says something differently.

We have to qualify for everlasting life by exercising faith in the blood of Christ.

Jesus has completed the work of redemption for us and he completes the work of redemption in us by the Holy Spirit. I do agree that our faith must be in him but the whole point of grace is that we don't have to prove ourselves.

Those who make no attempt to clean up their act will not qualify to be citizens in his kingdom.

The only way a person cannot qualify as a citizen in heaven is if God does not choose them.

(Matt 24:13)

Does that say one endures to the end by their own endurance?

Heb 10:26-29
"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,  but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition.  Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three.  How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?"

What it means is that people who practice sin after they claim to receive Jesus were never saved to begin with.

I am not American thankfully.

If you live in the western world you're spoiled was my point. What country are you in anyway?

He knows we can't but he also knows when people are doing their best.

He does not care about your best, your best is not good enough. (Isaiah 64:6)

Why does he tell people who are "good" Christians in their own eyes that they have failed the test?

Because they tried to work their way to him instead of allowing the grace of God to change them. They performed good works such as driving out demons, prophesying, and doing miracles. To do the will of the Father is to believe on Jesus. Your interpretation means that Jesus is contradicting himself. Look at verses 21-22. How is that not a contradiction?

You can't blame sin for what you do, because sinful acts are a choice.

That doesn't mean God doesn't direct our steps. (Proverbs 16:9) No I don't think God desires sin to occur, but it's apart of the plan.

Very black and white again.

You know Deeje, the Bible is very black and white.

Look what he expected from the Jews.

When did Jesus ever enforce a dress code?!

Among other things, yes.

All you need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit. The God of the universe lives inside of you as a Christian.

He laid down many requirements for Christians.

The only requirement to be accepted by God is the Holy Spirit's sanctifying power.

Sounds like justification to me. I think NO tattoos means NO tattoos.

I guess you want to keep kosher too?

Your Jesus isn't my Jesus, so we will see when the real Jesus stands up, won't we?

John 3:17

Where? Nowhere that I can see. It happens in little charismatic cloisters behind closed doors. That is not how it was used in the first century. It can so easily be faked.

You don't get the connection between advancing the Gospel and earthly languages? (Acts 2:1-6)

You know the last time someone from any church called on me to offer me the "good news of God's kingdom"? Try NEVER.

We're not tele-marketers! The Gospel is most effectively spread through personal relationships.

Yet Jesus did it all the time...and so did the apostles. (2 Pet 2:20-22)

What that means is that those who are not elect cannot turn from their sin because the Holy Spirit does not convict them.

Phil 2:12-15......there is no excuse to sin.

I'm not making one. (Matthew 23:4) You're just trying to make yourself feel better because you don't have ink in your skin. The truth is, you've got a worse problem Deeje, pride.

"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?....
Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”  You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?...You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone....Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

That means works are the inevitable result of faith, not that works justify us.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So I guess that means your Jewish?

He might be a Jehovah's witness..

So Israel thwarted the will and plan of God by their disobedience?

Why would you think that? Almighty God is not in need of anything .. it is us who are in need.

Then what does the word foreordain mean?

It means that the future is "already written", not that God wrote it .. this is due to God's omniscience.

The only way a person cannot qualify as a citizen in heaven is if God does not choose them.

True .. we'd better try to please God, then..

If you live in the western world you're spoiled was my point. What country are you in anyway?

His profile shows that he lives in Australia

 

[RedDragon94]

He might be a Jehovah's witness..



Why would you think that? Almighty God is not in need of anything .. it is us who are in need.


It means that the future is "already written", not that God wrote it .. this is due to God's omniscience.



True .. we'd better try to please God, then..


His profile shows that he lives in Australia

Alright thanks for the info. Don't you as a Muslim kind of agree with him though?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Alright thanks for the info. Don't you as a Muslim kind of agree with him though?

Yes .. there are many sins, but we should especially avoid the major ones.
eg. worshipping other than God, murder, adultery, usury

 

[RedDragon94]

murder, adultery, usury

Do you think that people that engage in these things are unforgivable?

 

[Katzpur]

Mormons have come to my door on occasion but there is no mention of the kingdom and they come with a different gospel.

Isn't it funny how people's perspectives differ. To me, it's the Jehovah's Witnesses who preach a different gospel.

 

[Deeje]

Isn't it funny how people's perspectives differ. To me, it's the Jehovah's Witnesses who preach a different gospel.

Were you raised as a Mormon Kat? That might explain it. I was raised in the Church of England but left because I found no truth there. I wanted to learn about the Christian faith but I didn't find much of it in church.

I checked out the Mormons once, but I could not for the life of me believe that we all came from heaven to live this life on purpose, and that Adam was somehow a hero by disobeying God. It is true that you don't believe that Adam and Eve could have had sex or children unless they sinned? I believe a Mormon told me that once.
The use of a book that has no historical back-up was also a bit much to swallow, as was the whole Joseph Smith encounter with an angel in the woods. You guys take so much on faith, but unsubstantiated non historical faith. I need something more substantial.

I need the Bible to be my only textbook and the guidance of those I trust to teach what the Bible actually says. It has to gel with what is in my heart and when Jesus said we would know the truth when we heard it....that wasn't my reaction to LDS teachings. It was to what JW's taught.

 

[Deeje]

So I guess that means your Jewish?

There is more than one definition of "Jewish". (Rom 2:28, 29; Gal 6:16)

So Israel thwarted the will and plan of God by their disobedience?

No, they just robbed themselves of the opportunity to rule with Christ in his kingdom.
Man's disobedience never thwarts God's purpose.

Then what does the word foreordain mean?

What God foreordained in Eden was the coming of a seed who would deal the devil a death blow. He purposed for a kingdom to bring about reconciliation with God.
The rulers in that kingdom were a predetermined number, but the individuals filling the places (apart from Jesus) were not predestined as ones who could not abuse their free will and lose their place.

As Paul said:
"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,  but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition." ( Heb 10:26, 27)
He was addressing fellow believers.

So God is not sovereign (or in control of) redemption then. Whereas Psalm 27:1-3 says something differently.

God is in control of his purpose...humans are in control of themselves.
If you don't shape up....you ship out. The new personality must dominate your actions. (Eph 4:17-24)

Jesus has completed the work of redemption for us and he completes the work of redemption in us by the Holy Spirit. I do agree that our faith must be in him but the whole point of grace is that we don't have to prove ourselves.

Whoever told you that has done you a great disservice.

Rev 2:10:
"Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison so that you may be fully put to the test, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Being fully put to the test is living up to our faith without wavering as Jesus and the apostles did. We all have to prove ourselves faithful to death otherwise we lose our right to life.

The only way a person cannot qualify as a citizen in heaven is if God does not choose them.

And why would God refuse to choose them? Because they are not interested in keeping God's commands or living by the teachings of the Christ.

2 Thess 2:7-9:
"But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."

Who is Jesus going to give an adverse judgment to? "Those who do not know God" along with "those who do not obey the gospel". Our obedience to Christ's teachings is an obligation.

Does that say one endures to the end by their own endurance?

No, but God will not support those who disobey him and think that Christ's sacrifice is a license to do whatever you like.

What it means is that people who practice sin after they claim to receive Jesus were never saved to begin with.

The Bible never says this. We can lose our salvation if we fail to keep to God's ways especially after coming to a knowledge of God's will.

2 Pet 2:20-22:
"Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire."

If you live in the western world you're spoiled was my point. What country are you in anyway?

I am Australian....and you are right, we do not really know what poverty is.

He does not care about your best, your best is not good enough. (Isaiah 64:6)

What the Israelites had to offer to God was the very best they had...he would accept nothing less.
Lame excuses are the same as lame sacrifices.

Mal 1:8
"And when you present a blind animal as a sacrifice, you say: “It is nothing bad.” And when you present a lame animal or a sick one: “It is nothing bad.”’”
“Try presenting them, please, to your governor. Will he be pleased with you or receive you with favor?”"

Because they tried to work their way to him instead of allowing the grace of God to change them. They performed good works such as driving out demons, prophesying, and doing miracles. To do the will of the Father is to believe on Jesus. Your interpretation means that Jesus is contradicting himself. Look at verses 21-22. How is that not a contradiction?

I am so sick of hearing about "grace" as if it was a "get out of jail free" ticket to do as you please. If you think that's what it is try it on come judgment day and see if the master accepts your excuses.

That doesn't mean God doesn't direct our steps. (Proverbs 16:9) No I don't think God desires sin to occur, but it's apart of the plan.

So what is the plan in your estimations?

You know Deeje, the Bible is very black and white.

Yes it is in some areas, but there are many grey areas that require us to work it out for ourselves, based on past history.

When did Jesus ever enforce a dress code?!

The Mosaic law required a dress code. Jesus was a law abiding Jew.....their clothing was distinctive, prescribed by law.

All you need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit. The God of the universe lives inside of you as a Christian.

Oh please! How do you think Christendom got so divided? People took the Bible and claimed that the voice in their head was holy spirit and formed their own church around it.

If all we needed was a Bible and holy spirit, everyone would be united in one belief....(1 Cor 1:10)

The only requirement to be accepted by God is the Holy Spirit's sanctifying power.

And we have to qualify for it by living a Christian life. God does not sanctify a disobedient heart.

I guess you want to keep kosher too?

Where I live, things are pretty kosher anyway.

John 3:17

The judging comes later.

You don't get the connection between advancing the Gospel and earthly languages? (Acts 2:1-6)

You think that speaking in tongues today is advancing the gospel? We have a better and more effective way....Christians preaching in all the world in their own language.
This why the tongues were given in the first century....now we preach in all languages so we don't need tongues, especially not the meaningless babble heard in charismatic churches..

We're not tele-marketers! The Gospel is most effectively spread through personal relationships.

That is not the way Jesus taught his disciples to preach. (Matt 10:11-15; Acts 5:42; 20:20)

What that means is that those who are not elect cannot turn from their sin because the Holy Spirit does not convict them.

Why would God elect those who disobey his laws? We can turn from sin...we are the captains of our own ship...we direct our own actions. You can't sin with impunity and expect God to just smile like an indulgent parent.
Just as he required certain behavior from his chosen nation, he requires the same from us. Who told you he didn't? (1 Thes 4:3-8)

That means works are the inevitable result of faith, not that works justify us.

It means that our works reflect the quality of our faith.
"Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you think that people that engage in these things are unforgivable?

If they don't sincerely repent, there is a distinct possibility

 

[Desert Snake]

Were you raised as a Mormon Kat? That might explain it. I was raised in the Church of England but left because I found no truth there. I wanted to learn about the Christian faith but I didn't find much of it in church.

I checked out the Mormons once, but I could not for the life of me believe that we all came from heaven to live this life on purpose, and that Adam was somehow a hero by disobeying God. It is true that you don't believe that Adam and Eve could have had sex or children unless they sinned? I believe a Mormon told me that once.
The use of a book that has no historical back-up was also a bit much to swallow, as was the whole Joseph Smith encounter with an angel in the woods. You guys take so much on faith, but unsubstantiated non historical faith. I need something more substantial.

I need the Bible to be my only textbook and the guidance of those I trust to teach what the Bible actually says. It has to gel with what is in my heart and when Jesus said we would know the truth when we heard it....that wasn't my reaction to LDS teachings. It was to what JW's taught.

You mean, the bible is your textbook, with your own /or church/, very unique, spin on it?

 

[Katzpur]

Were you raised as a Mormon Kat? That might explain it.

Give me a break. Yes, I was raised as a Mormon, but two-thirds of the membership of the Church today weren't. Had you been raised as a Jehovah's Witness, would you have remained one? Please don't try to imply that I'm gullible and that that I am a Mormon simply because I was raised by Mormon parents and was too lazy to do my own homework.

I was raised in the Church of England but left because I found no truth there. I wanted to learn about the Christian faith but I didn't find much of it in church.

Good for you. We should all be willing to examine our beliefs and never stop seeking for the truth.

I checked out the Mormons once, but I could not for the life of me believe that we all came from heaven to live this life on purpose, and that Adam was somehow a hero by disobeying God. It is true that you don't believe that Adam and Eve could have had sex or children unless they sinned? I believe a Mormon told me that once.

Well, that's an interesting spin you've put on our doctrine, but since it has nothing to do with the OP, I'm not going to bother responding to it.

The use of a book that has no historical back-up was also a bit much to swallow, as was the whole Joseph Smith encounter with an angel in the woods.

It wasn't an angel. It was God the Father and His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

You guys take so much on faith, but unsubstantiated non historical faith. I need something more substantial.

Yeah, so did Thomas, and you know how Jesus responded to his need for "something more substantial."

I need the Bible to be my only textbook and the guidance of those I trust to teach what the Bible actually says.

I need all of the truth I can get.

It has to gel with what is in my heart and when Jesus said we would know the truth when we heard it....that wasn't my reaction to LDS teachings. It was to what JW's taught.

Well then you are where you belong. I agree that it's pointless to join a religion if it doesn't ring true. After all, Jesus told Peter that his knowledge came from his Father in Heaven and not from the teachings of men.