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Can a Genesis God be Explained from a Science Perspective? (part 1)

Dante Writer

Active Member
You just can't stay out of the old quote mine, I guess bad habits are hard to break

  1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
    synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead;
  2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
    "a moon god"


There is no quote mining and just another example of your lack of reading comprehension.

I made it clear that I was using the KJV narration of Genesis.

That therefore would eliminate the second part of that definition.

God- (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

I posted that in my OP so there was no confusion of the definition I was applying.

Once again you fail in your attempt to argue semantics and avoid any substantive debate on the topic.

If you do not like my discussions- start your own because I am not going to tolerate your immature and disrespectful tactics to take my discussions off topic.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Then let's clarify the relationship of the the words "god" and "supernatural" by working from the other end;

supernatural
  1. of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil

  2. departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature; attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)
That's much clearer, no? Even god with a capital "G" is there.
 
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Dante Writer

Active Member
Then let's clarify the relationship of the the words "god" and "supernatural" by working from the other end;

supernatural
  1. of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil

  2. departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature; attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)


No that is just a lame excuse to not accept the definition provided and to try and distract from the topic.

If you want to debate that go start your own discussion on that interpretation please.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Wow- that is quite the theory or imagination you have there!

You say- "Nothing has ever come into existence."
You say- "the laws of physics are also merely properties of energy-mass-space-time quartet) have always existed in some form or the other."

The scientists say:

" Before the Big Bang, there were no laws of physics, no time and certainly no particles."

http://resources.schoolscience.co.uk/pparc/14-16/particles/particlesbigbang1.html

Did you get that- Before the Big Bang, there were no laws of physics, no time, and certainly no particles.

Care to try again?
I have no need, since I have taken undergrad courses and read graduate textbooks in cosmology, I know what I am talking about. Not everything you find in highly simplified internet introductions to cosmology is actually even halfway accurate. There is a nice little 40 page summary of the topic available in amazon as a Kindle short. I would advice you to read it before commenting on this topic further,

The Big Bang was not the beginning of time. Before the Big Bang, there was a tiny fraction of a second during which a process called inflation expanded a seed much smaller than the nucleus of an atom into a fireball the size of a basketball -- the Big Bang itself. From this fireball, the Universe as we know it developed. The origin of the seed from which the Universe began is not known with certainty, but as John Gribbin explains the most likely explanation is that it was a fluctuation of quantum energy in an eternal sea of cosmic energy. And that means that other seeds must surely have inflated to become other universes, bubbles in the cosmic sea. It is even possible that a collision between our universe and another bubble on the sea of eternity may have left an imprint on the cosmic background radiation, the echo of the Big Bang itself.

John Gribbin is an award winning science writer best known for his book In Search of Schrodinger's Cat. He studied astrophysics under Fred Hoyle in Cambridge, and is now a Visiting Fellow in Astronomy at the University of Sussex.

An easy way to conceive of(very very roughly) what is being thought today as to be the picture of the total universe is to consider it like an ice-crystal that was solidified from and expanding in an ocean of quantum chaos (very confusingly callled nothing by several researchers). The regularities of the crystalline lattice structure of this space-time-matter-energy ice (which physicists call the De-Sitter space) is what is seen as the laws of physics. Both the quantum chaos and the universe space-time crystal is made of the same stuff and have the same properties, but the manifestation of these properties are different, with the crystal regularity being a more special and symmetry-constrained expression of the general law properties of matter-energy-space-time stuff. What those general law-properties are likely to be are currently being investigated. An example will be the quantum gravity solutions based in the spin-foam model of spacetime.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Well, we could say everything is just imagination and we are not even having this discussion.

There are theories to that but I do exist as far as my intelligence and senses are capable of interpreting so I have to start from that point.

Thanks for sharing!


I would like to explore this idea of imagination for a moment.
Since most think of it as a childish kind of thing anyway, let us start there.
When we were a child our imagination was our best tool, the use of it could turn us into a super hero.
The focus of a child is an amazing thing to witness.

All of this power in the hands of those without the power of reason to use it.
What if...imagine, that we as adults could use that focus, the power of our imagination, to turn ourselves into whatever we want to be.

All we have to do is to Pre-Tend our way there.
In other words, focus on what we want so intently that everything we do leads us in the direction of what we want.
Through our imagination (focus) every act we take Pre-Tends to the things that we need to get done in order to get to the place we want to go.

This may sound strange at first but i assure you that through the use of the imagination one can find direction in their life.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
There are theories to that but I do exist as far as my intelligence and senses are capable of interpreting so I have to start from that point.

Thanks for sharing!

One of the theories is that we live in a holographic universe and we ourselves are in fact a hologram.
This means of course that we are all a slice of the whole which contains everything that the whole contains but is not the whole.
So it seems like we are the whole picture but we are only a slice.

The implications:
If we contain all that the whole contains, then in order to know something about our origins we would only have to come to know ourselves.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
No that is just a lame excuse to not accept the definition provided and to try and distract from the topic.

If you want to debate that go start your own discussion on that interpretation please.
It would appear to more valid than yours. Always remember, you get to have your own opinion, but not your own facts, or your own word definitions, unless you are Shakespeare and he got his own words.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I just wonder why you do have these one sides challenges that are heavily anti-science and pro-religion every time? Do you have any challenges that do the opposite where you challenge established religion and pro-science? I don't think a single one of them so far has. I just wonder why?
Exactly, and I simply am very reluctant to blindly swallow his "I have no religious beliefs" line. I just asked him a couple of questions a few minutes ago about this on another thread, so I'll be interested in getting his response.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
To me, I'm more curious about where you're going with all these questions rather than the questions themselves.

Your being brought down the rabbit hole where something makes everything nonsensical.
The thought experiments are just that, our own thoughts are being manipulated into confusion.
It is his experiment, not ours.
We do not participate, we are the subjects.

Welcome to the rabbit hole.

“But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here.”
Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland


“Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?'
'That depends a good deal on where you want to get to,' said the Cat.
'I don't much care where -' said Alice.
'Then it doesn't matter which way you go,' said the Cat.
'- so long as I get SOMEWHERE,' Alice added as an explanation.
'Oh, you're sure to do that,' said the Cat, 'if you only walk long enough.”
Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are Laws of nature and science that exist and control and direct everything in this Universe. We have only discovered some of those laws and man did not invent the laws and man like all forms in the Universe must follow those laws.

The Laws of energy, gravity, relativity, conservation, thermodynamics etc. exist and seem to be present in the entire Universe and the laws are what holds everything together and directs all actions in the Universe. The laws apply to all particles from the sub atomic quarks to planets and living organisms like humans.
"The road back to reality, we suggest, begins by making two affirmations about nature: the uniqueness of the universe and the reality of time. These together have an immediate consequence which is the central hypothesis of our program: that the laws of nature evolve, and they do so through mechanisms that can be discovered and probed experimentally because they concern the past."
Unger, R. M., & Smolin, L. (2014). The singular universe and the reality of time. Cambridge University Press.

"Time-dependent laws have been considered occasionally (see, for example, Smolin , 2008 ), as well as observational tests carried out to look for evidence that some of the so-called fundamental constants of physics may in fact have changed slowly over cosmological time scales (Barrow , 2002 ). Particle physics suggests that the laws we observe today may actually be only effective laws, valid at relatively low energy, emergent from the big bang as the universe cooled from Planck temperatures . String theory suggests a mathematical landscape of different low-energy laws, with the possibility of different regimes in different cosmic patches, or universes – a variant on the multiverse theory (Susskind , 2005)"
Davies, P. (2010). Universe from bit. In P. Davies & N. H. Gregersen (Eds.) Information and the Nature of Reality: From Physics to Metaphysics (pp. 65-91). Cambridge University Press.

"This essay is part of a larger project whose aim is radically to reconfigure the practice of science on a cosmological scale in order to admit three theses: (1) the reality of time, (2) the evolution of laws with respect to that time and (3) the uniqueness of the single causally closed universe that unfolds in time."
Smolin, L. (2015). Temporal naturalism. Studies in History and Philosophy of Science Part B: Studies in History and Philosophy of Modern Physics, 52, 86-102.

"Many things in Nature which we thought to be eternal, like the fixed stars, atoms, or quantities such as mass, turned out to be only temporary forms. Now the only thing which is believed to be of eternal stature is the law of Nature. In a contribution to a symposium at the Pontifical Academy of Science on 'Understanding Reality: The Role of Culture and Science' I tried to explain why I do not think that this is necessarily so and that also the laws may evolve in the course of the history of the universe. Herewith I would like to submit this heresy to a wider scientific public..."
Thirring, W. (1995). Do the laws of nature evolve. In M. P. Murphy (Ed.) What is life? The Next Fifty Years (pp. 131-136). Cambridge University Press.


Your body matter is held together by those laws and the energy that we call life inside your body is also a result of those laws. Without those laws there would be no form possible as the laws dictate how particles and matter stick together and how energy responds.


“It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”
Wigner, E. (1983). Remarks on the mind–body question. In J.A. Wheeler & W.H. Zurek (Eds.) Quantum Theory and Measurement (pp. 168-181). Princeton University Press.


"'Metabolism' as discussed here has no meaning in a machine. It also would have no meaning if we had all the chemical components of the organism in jars on a lab bench...Pull things apart as reductionism asks us to do and something essential about the system is lost. Philosophically this has revolutionary consequences. The acceptance of this idea means that one recognizes ontological status for something other than mere atoms and molecules"
Mikulecky, D. C. (2005). The Circle That Never Ends: Can Complexity be Made Simple? In D. Bonchev & D. H. Rouvray (Eds.) Complexity in Chemistry, Biology, and Ecology (Mathematical and Computational Chemistry) (pp. 97-153). Springer.

"systems biology is concerned with the relationship between molecules and cells; it treats cells as organized, or organizing, molecular systems having both molecular and cellular properties. It is concerned with how life or the functional properties thereof that are not yet in the molecules, emerge from the particular organization of and interactions between its molecular processes. It uses models to describe particular cells and generalizes over various cell types and organisms to arrive at new theories of cells as molecular systems. It is concerned with explaining and predicting cellular behaviour on the basis of molecular behaviour...It shies away from reduction of the system under study to a collection of elementary particles. Indeed, it seems to violate many of the philosophical foundations of physics, often in ways unprecedented even by modern physics." (emphasis added)
from the editor's introduction to Boogerd, F., Bruggeman, F. J., Hofmeyr, J. H. S., & Westerhoff, H. V. (Eds.). (2007). Systems Bioogy. Elsevier.

The Laws dictate how the Universe acts and it is through those laws that planets form and solar systems like the one we live in form. If no Laws were present there would be no Universe as we know it.

"But it is becoming increasingly apparent that we are not gadgets and neither is the universe...At the very least we need a naturalism that does not straitjacket our understanding of complex systems such as the human brain to failed metaphors coming from an early twentieth-century formulation of what it is to make a computation. Why can’t the brain be a physical system that does not happen to be a programmable digital computer? Are we sure there are not still new principles to be discovered in complex systems, biology, and neuroscience?
The root of the crisis in naturalism is its being wedded to the picture that the universe is a machine. This in turn is a consequence of the idea that nature is governed by laws which are timeless, immutable and mathematical. The path out of crisis is to embrace a new form of naturalism based on the reality of time and the evolution of laws.” pp. 356-357
Unger, R. M., & Smolin, L. (2014). The Singular Universe and the Reality of Time: A Proposal in Natural Philosophy. Cambridge University Press.


“We can no longer speak of the behavior of the particle independently of the process of observation. As a final consequence, the natural laws formulated mathematically in quantum theory no longer deal with the elementary particles themselves but with our knowledge of them. Nor is it any longer possible to ask whether or not these particles exist in space and time objectively...”
Heisenberg, W. (1958). The Physicist’s Conception of Nature. Hutchinson & Co

“Was the world wave function waiting to jump for thousands of millions of years until a single-celled living creature appeared? Or did it have to wait a little longer for some highly qualified measurer, – with a Ph.D.?”
Bell, J. S. (1981). Quantum Mechanics for Cosmologists. In C. Isham, R. Penrose, & D. Sciama (Eds.) Quantum Gravity 2 (pp. 611-637). Oxford University Press.

"We now know that the moon is demonstrably not there when nobody looks."
Mermin, N. D. (1981). Quantum mysteries for anyone. The Journal of Philosophy, 78(7), 397-408.

“The only reality is mind and observations”
Henry, R. C. (2005). The mental universe. Nature, 436(7047), 29-29.

The Laws are separate from the Universe and do not have shape or form and the Laws simply exist and is an entity separate from the universe that has always existed. The big bang as described by science could not happen without those laws so the laws existed before that event. All action and reaction is dictated by the Laws.
All "laws" of physics break down just after the big bang, and are certainly not compatible with the big bang itself.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Evidence is the difference between faith and confidence. The requirement for and production of evidence is the great divide, it defines the absence of common ground.

Where is the evidence for the existence of the physical world, that does not rely on trust (faith, or confidence) in physical perception? I'm keenly interested in this made up great divide you allude to.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
@Dante Writer presumably wants a discussion on science and Genesis 1.1 suggesting that he claims some understanding of both. Genesis was written in Biblical Hebrew. I'd like to know what he believes it says.

Okay.

This "like to know what he believes it says" is translating and not (in anyway) related to interpretation?
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
All you need to is open a dictionary ... it's right there for you.

Interesting that you rely on the dictionary for definition of the term.

Shall we do this with the term faith?

1 complete trust or confidence in someone or something: this restores one's faith in politicians.
2 strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
• a system of religious belief: the Christian faith.
• a strongly held belief or theory: the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe.
How about the term confidence?

the feeling or belief that one can rely on someone or something; firm trust: we had every confidence in the staff | he had gained the young man's confidence.
• the state of feeling certain about the truth of something: it is not possible to say with confidence how much of the increase in sea levels is due to melting glaciers.
• a feeling of self-assurance arising from one's appreciation of one's own abilities or qualities: she's brimming with confidence | [ in sing. ] : he would walk up those steps with a confidence he didn't feel.
Hey, let's just pick one definition that suits us, ignore all other ones (especially if they are the primary, or first, definition) and pretend like our use is entirely accurate? C'mon, it'll be fun!
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Where is the evidence for the existence of the physical world, that does not rely on trust (faith, or confidence) in physical perception? I'm keenly interested in this made up great divide you allude to.
Rather simple, evidence for the existence of the physical world is found in shared common observations. The "great divide' that you pretend keen interest in is nothing more than the requirement in science for such evidence while religion often happily depends on "personal" special knowledge.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Interesting that you rely on the dictionary for definition of the term.

Shall we do this with the term faith?

1 complete trust or confidence in someone or something: this restores one's faith in politicians.
2 strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
• a system of religious belief: the Christian faith.
• a strongly held belief or theory: the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe.
How about the term confidence?

the feeling or belief that one can rely on someone or something; firm trust: we had every confidence in the staff | he had gained the young man's confidence.
• the state of feeling certain about the truth of something: it is not possible to say with confidence how much of the increase in sea levels is due to melting glaciers.
• a feeling of self-assurance arising from one's appreciation of one's own abilities or qualities: she's brimming with confidence | [ in sing. ] : he would walk up those steps with a confidence he didn't feel.
Hey, let's just pick one definition that suits us, ignore all other ones (especially if they are the primary, or first, definition) and pretend like our use is entirely accurate? C'mon, it'll be fun!
Picking one is your game, my point is that there are many and that, in conversation, agreement as to definitions are important and that playing semantic games with disparate meanings to attempt to confound your interlocutor may be tactically effective, but it is intellectually dishonest.
 
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