Can a JW please answer this one question, pretty please?

[RedhorseWoman]

You should have been disgusted. Interestingly, of the many I have known, I can´t imagine one of them making a statement like that.

I pinned them down on this issue once. I asked a couple of them if they ate meat, they said yes. I asked them if they bought kosher meat exclusively, they said no.

Of course the conclusion was that if an animal is not slaughtered in the kosher manner, there will be residual blood in the meat.

My question, if you knowingly eat meat with blood in it, how can someone receiving blood to save their life be criticized ? ( I had recently got out of the hospital, where I received 6 pints of blood over a period of 35 days)

There response was quite good I thought. First, they said no one should criticize anyone for having blood transfusions. Further, they said they interpret the the command in the NT to avoid blood to include blood transfusions.

Finally, they said they wished I hadn´t brought up the meat in the supermarket !

We all laughed.

And yet, JWs will accept almost all fractions of blood, and they will also accept an organ transplant, which will almost inevitably contain some amount of whole blood. They eat meat, frequently cooked rare, and declare that the blood they are consuming is not blood, but "meat juice."

When the initial ban on blood transfusions was put into effect (sometime in the 60s, I think) no fractions were allowed, and organ transplants were also not allowed (the WTS declared transplants to be a form of cannibalism.) Blood in any form was forbidden, and we were instructed to check any pet food we bought to ensure that no blood products were being given to our pets. We also were instructed not to use any fertilizer in our gardens that contained blood meal (which I never understood, since the command indicated that the animal blood should be poured out on the ground.) And, of course, what were we to do if we caught our cat or dog consuming a mouse or some other creature that hadn't been bled? Such a dilemma!

Many JWs at that time were freaked out by candy bars...yes, candy bars...because many candy bars contained lecithin. I often tried to reason with my fellow JWs by telling them that blood lecithin would not be used in candy bars and that the lecithin in those items was plant based, but they generally preferred to stay away from candy bars so that they wouldn't "offend Jehovah."

Their stance now is really, in my opinion, quite hypocritical.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

I'm glad you have had pleasant experiences!

You are correct, about residual blood in meat. But yet, God still made that command.
So, we must try to remove as much as we can.

In line with this, We avoid the 4 main components of blood - plasma, RBC's, WBC's, and platelets. (They are removed from meat.)
However, accepting blood fractions is a personal matter.

Do you wash your meat and wring it out well? Perhaps soak it overnight in salted water to try to remove all blood? Probably not.

Can you show any scripture wherein God commands anyone to refrain from accepting freely donated human blood used in a medical procedure? Can you show any scripture where anything other than pouring out an animal's blood on the ground in order to show respect for life is indicated? Can you show any scripture that commands people to sacrifice LIFE so that the symbol of life can be worshiped?

Can you show any scripture that indicates that blood fractions are allowed and which fractions are allowable, or is this twist simply what your leaders have decided God wants?

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Yes, store-bought meat has already been bled... The four basic components have already been removed.

Care to explain the process by which the "four basic components" of blood are removed from meat, thereby making the remaining blood allowable? I didn't realize that there was any special process being utilized by butchers to make residual blood in meat acceptable for JWs. Please post a link explaining this process. And, is this a process utilized worldwide or only in specific areas?

 

[RedhorseWoman]

I don´t think the removal of blood from market bought meat is practiced by some of your brothers and sisters. At least the ones I have known didn´t do it.

They don't. They just call it "meat juice" and pretend that it isn't blood.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

I'm glad you said that.....because the attitude of the poster to whom you are responding is want to be negative about everything associated with God or the Bible and is very hostile to JW's. We have only one side of that story and quite frankly, I can't imagine any of my brothers saying something Iike that either. Our decision not to have blood transfusions is ours, it's not something we would force on others. I am wondering if the story is actually retold with any accuracy, or just hatefully distorted?

Most JWs would have enough sense not to attack a "worldly" person like that, but despite what you wish to believe about your "brothers" some JWs are just, shall we say, jerks who say horrible things and do horrible things. When people recount bad experiences with JWs, it doesn't automatically indicate that they are lying or trying to "persecute" you and your brothers.

That is the point. The rules regarding the slaughter of animals in abattoirs, usually requires the bleeding necessary to meet the requirements of God's law. We have to understand that the Pharisees took God's law to a ridiculous degree, meaning that Kosher prepared food goes way beyond any requirement ever outlined in God's law. Jesus criticised the Pharisees for this very thing.

LOL The Pharisees weren't the only ones taking God's law to a ridiculous degree...JWs do the same thing. The law stated that an animal's blood should be poured out on the ground and not eaten in order to show respect for the life of the animal. JWs have taken that simple law and twisted it so that the symbol of life is now more important to them than an actual human life.

Initially, as I previously stated, we were told to make sure our PETS didn't eat any food with blood products in it. We were told not to use FERTILIZER with blood meal in it. Many JWs were afraid to eat CANDY BARS utilizing plant lecithin because they believed it was blood lecithin.

Talk about taking God's law to a ridiculous degree!!

As long as the animal's blood was poured out on the ground, symbolically returning the animal's life to God, then that is all that was necessary. The law was not to consume blood as such. It emphasised its sacredness to God, representing the life of the creature. Used in accord with God's law, it atoned for sin.

Life was always the most important thing. JWs today worship the symbol of life and sacrifice actual life to that symbol.

I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully you are recovering well.
I am wondering though, if a JW with the same medical situation was to go through it without blood and made a better recovery, would you change your mind? It is because of this that many hospitals are now going "bloodless". The success rate among JW's undergoing procedures routinely requiring blood, was so good that many doctors have completely re-evaluated their position on the use of autologous blood transfusions. Our personal experience is that we recover better without them.
Wouldn't we expect a law of God to be beneficial?

Sometimes, the only viable treatment is a blood transfusion. Elective procedures can often be performed successfully without blood, but in many instances, blood is the only thing that will save a life. It's about time that JWs realized the difference.

Avoiding the consumption of blood is reiterated in scripture right from the time God first gave man permission to eat animal flesh. He told Noah not to consume the blood. He repeated the command in Israel's law and it was repeated again as a "necessary" thing for Christians.....so to God it is very important.

The manner of consumption is not important at all. When a person cannot eat by mouth, they are often fed intravenously. So to us consuming blood through transfusion is still technically "eating" it.

A person suffering from malnutrition will NOT be given a blood transfusion. Blood that is transfused is NOT "food" and a person given a blood transfusion for malnutrition would starve to death. That argument is bogus, and I'm sure you know that so why keep trotting it out?

 

[Deeje]

Explain exactly who are the dead.
What does it mean, the resurrection of the Dead
So who's the dead

Judging by the ones that Jesus resurrected, I'd say that they are people who stopped breathing.

(Luke 8:40-56; John 8:11-17; John 11:17-44)

There's no one in the graves.
All of except a dead body corps.

Exactly...and because there is no conscious part of man that survived death, there is no one outside of the grave (sheol) either. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10)

You do know that no one goes to heaven,
All must come before the Judgement seat of Jesus Christ first..

Oh dear, you've just undone the whole kingdom arrangement!

On the night before his death Jesus instituted a new covenant with his 11 apostles faithful apostles.....Judas had left by this time to orchestrate Jesus' arrest and be paid his 30 pieces of silver.

Jesus' covenant for a kingdom meant that those who would share in the rulership of this earth with him, would receive an anointing with God's spirit that would be a token of their choosing...their "heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1) So it was to heaven that Jesus said he was going to "prepare a place" for them in his Father's house. (John 14:2-3)

Not all Christians go to heaven, however.....only those anointed by God for positions in the kingdom will do so, and they have no need of judgment because they have already received their approval from God if they die faithful. (Revelation 2:10)
These will be 'kings and priests' who will rule over earthly subjects and intercede for them. (Revelation 20:6) We can look forward to an awesome future under their divine guidance and rulership. (Revelation 21:2-4)

I don't know where you get your ideas but I am fairly certain that they are not shared by many others.....are they?
Who are your brethren? Where do you meet together for worship? Can you at least point me to a website so that I can check out their beliefs?

 

[Jedster]

What those JWs said to you was unforgivable and I can understand why you were disgusted. Usually, JWs are a bit more circumspect with regard to what "worldly" people do with regard to medical treatments, even if they, themselves, believe such a treatment is against God's will.

They had absolutely no right to criticize you on this matter.

Agree.
Even though the people here believed they were right. I go by the phrase "The right words at the wrong time are the wrong words".

 

[Deeje]

Sir I feel you have asked the WRONG PEOPLE this question. The JW do not know the answers to your questions.

Oh but we do....I provided them. Have you got better ones? Please present them...

They have their own ever-changing bible, their own ever-mutating doctrines and they have
terrified generations of their own people with predictions of the return of Christ and end of the world on
a regular basis - predictions which did not come true.

LOL....Did we? An ever changing Bible? I think we have revised it a couple of times but then so have many other translations...even the old KJV...but you knew that....right?
We updated our understanding of the original languages as well as making statements clearer in more up to date terminology. So evil that!

Ever mutating doctrines?
Proverbs 4:18 says that as dawn approaches the light on the path gets brighter....if it isn't getting brighter then you need to change direction...you're going the wrong way.
God's truth is revealed progressively...as it always has been. We are happy to catch up.

We "terrified people" by telling them the truth about what God is going to do with his own planet? You think it doesn't need cleaning up? Its coming, ready or not....we just don't know when. (Matthew 24:36-39)
The predictions were actually Jesus' one prophesy on the "end of the age"....you can read it in Matthew 24:3-14, but I have a feeling that you already know it.
We got the timing wrong a few times but that's OK, it weeded out those who were serving a year rather than serving God for however long it takes to complete his purpose for this earth. All the faithful ones are still here, enjoying the Christian love and unity that we expect.
The unfaithful ones are just standing outside bellyaching apparently.....

To understand their "authority" you need to go back to their founders, beginning with the Millerites, then
Russel and finally Rutherford.

Perhaps we should talk about the founders of Christendom too....? You really should consult the history of the church and see where all their doctrines came from....not from the Bible, I can assure you. You want to pick on them too...or just us?

When I see them logging their hours, studying their publications, rejecting higher education and
shunning or being shunned - it breaks my heart.

You see them doing this do you? Ex-JW or just another hater? No matter....same mind set.

And you know, when I see priests and ministers of religion in the military condoning the bloodshed in war...that breaks my heart. When I see supposed "Christians" promoting pagan doctrines and practices adopted from false worship and palming them off as "Christian" under a new name, that really breaks my heart. I guess that there are important things to get heartbroken over....what we do breaks no laws of God or men...it just upsets those who want to have their cake and eat it too.

So, just to be fair, you really need to tell the whole of Christendom to clean up their backyard too, before you start throwing your rubbish into ours. OK?

I see that you are are follower of "none"....

I hope you and 'none' have a nice day....

 

[SA Huguenot]

Oh dear...no wonder no one came back...what was the point?

Believe whatever you wish...

the point is very clear. if the JW's say God will take my mind or memories, and store it for the ressurrection, I want to know why cant I call it "ME". my spirit that will not die?
yet JW's like to play with words, and tells me that God will take my "Programme, and reboot me in heaven.
My claim is simple. If this "Programmme" was concious during this time and God placed it in a new body, then it is an immortal entity!
If this "Programme" is not a living thing, but somehow nothing more than "Programmable instinct" that gets switched on after life, ...
IT IS NOTHING OF ME THAT LIVES HERE AND NOW...BUT SOME OTHER CREATION.

JW's, I want to know one thing from you!

WHAT OF ME NOW LIVING WILL ONE DAY LIVE IN HEAVEN WITH GOD, IF NOT SPIRIT?
IF IT IS NOT AS MUCH AS ONE SINGLE CELL OF WHAT IS NOW HERE ON EARTH RECOGNISABLE AS ME, THEN YOUR GOD IS WORTHLESS IN MY SALVATION AND WE ARE ALL JUST DOOMED TO HAVE THIS MISRABLE LIFE WE HAVE NOW.

Remember now, I want to know
What of me living now, will enter heaven?
See how the Jw's living false prophets denies your salvation through Jesus Christ.
according to their own reasoning, not a single human being that ever lived, will ever be with God in heaven.

 

[Deeje]

WHAT OF ME NOW LIVING WILL ONE DAY LIVE IN HEAVEN WITH GOD, IF NOT SPIRIT?
IF IT IS NOT AS MUCH AS ONE SINGLE CELL OF WHAT IS NOW HERE ON EARTH RECOGNISABLE AS ME, THEN YOUR GOD IS WORTHLESS IN MY SALVATION AND WE ARE ALL JUST DOOMED TO HAVE THIS MISRABLE LIFE WE HAVE NOW.

You have already made up your mind on this...so who can tell you any different? Nothing survives death......there is nothing to survive. Its a hard concept for you apparently...but where were you before your parents conceived you? There is your answer. Adam was told that he would simply go back to where he was before God created him. (Genesis 3:19)

Go and enjoy your miserable life, if that is what you think.....I don't know what you want from us? We have nothing you want to hear.

BTW...internet shouting is very bad manners.

 

[oldbadger]

I couldn't comment on the level of creepy, but at least they use correct modern understandable English, No 'thou's 'thee's etc.
& they don't denigrate the Hebrew Scripture by calling it 'The old testament', rather the 'Hebrew testament'.

Yes, I can read their bible with more ease.

OK..... I have always called it thde 'OT' for decades, but no JW has ever been so confrontational or contentious as to correct me. They are very polite.
But now that I know, I will try to get used to calling it the 'Hebrew Testament' in future.

Thanks for that info.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Yes, I can read their bible with more ease.

OK..... I have always called it thde 'OT' for decades, but no JW has ever been so confrontational or contentious as to correct me. They are very polite.
But now that I know, I will try to get used to calling it the 'Hebrew Testament' in future.

Thanks for that info.

Well I like to adhere to what YHWH tells us.
He personally told us that the Old Testament is the Old Testament.
And He will give us a New Testament.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Only JW's that makes rules that no one knows about it seems.

 

[SA Huguenot]

You have already made up your mind on this...so who can tell you any different? Nothing survives death......there is nothing to survive. Its a hard concept for you apparently...but where were you before your parents conceived you? There is your answer. Adam was told that he would simply go back to where he was before God created him. (Genesis 3:19)

Go and enjoy your miserable life, if that is what you think.....I don't know what you want from us? We have nothing you want to hear.

BTW...internet shouting is very bad manners.

I decided to write in capitals, because you dont want to tell me what of me will go to heaven.

 

[Deeje]

I decided to write in capitals, because you dont want to tell me what of me will go to heaven.

I'm sorry...I thought you were an adult? Forgive me, I didn't realize I was talking to a child.

Let me just say this....according to my studies of the scriptures not one molecule of you will go to heaven. How many ways would you like me to say it?

When people die, all their molecules stay right here on earth. Some of them may even be absorbed into other biological matter but God doesn't need a single one of them to reconstruct a human.
He will produce a new body with all their memories restored. They will recognize themselves and so will resurrected members of their immediate family.....isn't it wonderful? Now you run along and tell daddy all about it..OK?

 

[Deeje]

Yes, I can read their bible with more ease.

OK..... I have always called it thde 'OT' for decades, but no JW has ever been so confrontational or contentious as to correct me. They are very polite.
But now that I know, I will try to get used to calling it the 'Hebrew Testament' in future.

Thanks for that info.

Hey OB...just for the record we tend to steer clear of the "old"/"new" concept of scripture because we don't see the Bible in those terms. We see all of the Bible as relevant and important. So for us its the Hebrew scriptures and the Christian Greek scriptures. All are God's word to us.

I sometimes use the old/new terminology when speaking to those who are more comfortable with it, but amongst ourselves we do not use those terms generally.

 

[PruePhillip]

I'm sorry...I thought you were an adult? Forgive me, I didn't realize I was talking to a child.

Let me just say this....according to my studies of the scriptures not one molecule of you will go to heaven. How many ways would you like me to say it?

When people die, all their molecules stay right here on earth. Some of them may even be absorbed into other biological matter but God doesn't need a single one of them to reconstruct a human.
He will produce a new body with all their memories restored. They will recognize themselves and so will resurrected members of their immediate family.....isn't it wonderful? Now you run along and tell daddy all about it..OK?

Is this Miller's, Russel's or Rutherford's interpretation?

 

[SA Huguenot]

I'm sorry...I thought you were an adult? Forgive me, I didn't realize I was talking to a child.

Let me just say this....according to my studies of the scriptures not one molecule of you will go to heaven. How many ways would you like me to say it?

When people die, all their molecules stay right here on earth. Some of them may even be absorbed into other biological matter but God doesn't need a single one of them to reconstruct a human.
He will produce a new body with all their memories restored. They will recognize themselves and so will resurrected members of their immediate family.....isn't it wonderful? Now you run along and tell daddy all about it..OK?

I dont understand why you are so adament that, what we have now, will not be able to enter heaven.

Quite simply I said from the start that I agree with the fact that no cell in our bodies will enter heaven.
Never did I complain about that.

My only question is,
What of me , now here living on earth, will enter heaven?
You answered, nothing.
Great, I dont want to be a JW ever, because I go for the ultimate goal where I as a human can enter into everlasting life, conciously knowing I lived, conciously know I am dead, and conciously know I am ressurrected to God, and conciously know I am in heaven as the same person who lived on earth.

If you tell me that even my conciousness will die, and I will be re programmed by God as a re run of something that was on earth, you have a new creation. not me.

Now, there are many passages where God says humans have a living entity that goes to a place where the dead spirits are kept, where they are concious about their environment, and Jesus himself declared it in that regard.
So why dont you believe that this "Conciousness" is what we as Christians describe as our immortal spirit?
The only reason for your agression is that you dont like to ask such questions, because the "Prophets" of the JW's dont like what I ask, therefore you should also dislike it.

The JW's god lived in Brooklyn, and relocated to Upper New York

 

[Faithofchristian]

Judging by the ones that Jesus resurrected, I'd say that they are people who stopped breathing.

(Luke 8:40-56; John 8:11-17; John 11:17-44)



Exactly...and because there is no conscious part of man that survived death, there is no one outside of the grave (sheol) either. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10)



Oh dear, you've just undone the whole kingdom arrangement!

On the night before his death Jesus instituted a new covenant with his 11 apostles faithful apostles.....Judas had left by this time to orchestrate Jesus' arrest and be paid his 30 pieces of silver.

Jesus' covenant for a kingdom meant that those who would share in the rulership of this earth with him, would receive an anointing with God's spirit that would be a token of their choosing...their "heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1) So it was to heaven that Jesus said he was going to "prepare a place" for them in his Father's house. (John 14:2-3)

Not all Christians go to heaven, however.....only those anointed by God for positions in the kingdom will do so, and they have no need of judgment because they have already received their approval from God if they die faithful. (Revelation 2:10)
These will be 'kings and priests' who will rule over earthly subjects and intercede for them. (Revelation 20:6) We can look forward to an awesome future under their divine guidance and rulership. (Revelation 21:2-4)

I don't know where you get your ideas but I am fairly certain that they are not shared by many others.....are they?
Who are your brethren? Where do you meet together for worship? Can you at least point me to a website so that I can check out their beliefs?

You take a person's body as being dead, that the person themselves are dead
False.
The body is all that dies, the person themselves do not die.

As there is no one dead to God and Jesus Christ.
The spirit that is within the body does not die, but is eternal. Only God can destroy the Spirit within the body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust
(body) return to the earth as it was,
And the Spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
Therefore there's no one in the graves, only a dead body corps that's decaying back to dust of the earth from where it was taken from.
And we ourselves ( spirit beings) return back to God. Therefore the body does, but the Spirit never does, but is eternal that never does. Only God can destroy the Spirit.

As for Revelation 20:6, this is after Christ Jesus has returned and we are not of flesh and blood, but are spirit beings. And further more no one leaves the earth,
Jesus Christ at this time has established his kingdom here on earth, so no one is going anywhere. Everyone will be spirit beings here on earth.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52,
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

Therefore at the sounding of the last Trump, everyone will be changed from the body of flesh and blood to the Spirit being .

Have you any idea what the last Trump is?
According to the book of Revelation.
What's happening that causes the last Trump to sound in the book of Revelation?

Jesus Christ can not return until the last last prophecy of Revelation happens first, which brings about the last Trump to sound.
What is the last Trump?

 

[BilliardsBall]

When I was still a young man, here in the 80's, I totally lost any belief in God.
I did however decide to try to learn from all religions and never turned anyone away when they by accident, or by visits crossed my path.
Well, I was visited by many religious sects, but in this thread we will discuss a question I asked the Watchtower Tract and Bible society, or as better known, the Jehovah Witnesses.
By accident I stay opposite the biggest printing operations in the World, the one in South Africa, Roodepoort.

The Question:
What of a person goes to heaven?
As I went to Bible studies with JW's, I learned the following "pillars of JW" if I may call it as such.
1. No human has a Spirit living within themself. We are only Flesh and Blood, with a breath of life that keeps us alive like a clockwork. This breath of life returns to God when we die, but it is not a"Spirit" in the sense of an immortal person.
2. No Flesh and Blood can enter heaven. this is impossible, but they remain in the grave.
3. There are 2 types of people in the ressurection, the one typw is 144000 elect that will go to heaven, and the rest are JW's who will live on the Earth for a thousand years.

My question is, If these ellect dont have a living immortal spirit living in their bodies, what will go to heaven?
Now, JW's tried to answer me numerous times as they came knocking on my door, and every time they told me that they will come back to me and they will answer my question.
many so called "Elders" did visit me, and the conversation goes like this.

• Look, you will not go to heaven, you will stay here on earth in the milenium.
• But I dont want to keep on living for a mere 1 000 years of eternity, I want it all, I want to live with God in heaven!
• Only the Ellect 144000 will go there.
• OK, so what of them will go to heaven? I mean, their Flesh and Blood is in the grave, and with no Spirit, what goes to heaven?
• No, God will recreate them as they were here on earth when they were living!
• Wait, are you telling that God will make some other beings representing His followers he had here on Earth?
• No, God will take the memories of these people, and that is what will enter heaven!
• OK, so the memories is immortal and my mind will then get a new body, this means that inside of me I have an immortal mind, can we not say this is the Spirit that can not die but after death will continue to live!
• No, this is not what I say, We definately do not have anything inside of us that is immortal.
• OK, so what of me sitting here NOW will go to heaven? I mean, If there is at least a single cell, or hair that will go to God, and I will be concious about attaining salvation, why bother? If there is nothing of me here on Earth that will go to heaven, why even worship God? I can just as well start to steal and kill to have a better life while I am here!
• Can I get someone to answer you? We have excelent Bible teachers that knows mort than I.
• Please do.

So, lets' see if I can get an answer after +- 40 years?

Please never confuse "excellent Bible teachers" with "selling what Watchtower sells as correct Bible understanding"!

 

[ecco]

The Bible's formula for life is simple.....
A body + spirit (breath) = a soul.

At death, the "spirit" has left the body because the last breath has just been expelled from the lungs. The soul is then dead.

Dejee! Did you really just say that life is a body and breath? Really?

You just refuted all your arguments about a fetus being a person. Do you not know that a fetus does not breath?