Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

[#H.E.B.Knowledge]

I tend to feel that the Bible was put together by those who tried their best to understand God in the context of their culture and oral traditions. Therefore, I feel it's best to take a look at the various teachings, and use that which seems to make the most sense in today's world.

When we look at the creation accounts, why should we look at them in a literalistic manner but, instead, look at the morals and values that can be found within.

Totally agree. But I don't believe that the Bible should be worshipped like it is. I don't hear a religion being formed out of the story about The Three Little Pigs. The story has teaches a lesson, but the story isn't portrayed as an actual event.

 

[metis]

And when we consider these Laws from the Tanakh, we need to remember that these were given at Sinai wheras we had no prisons or jails, thus limiting what we could do with those who threatened society. Once we established towns and cities, prisons and jails were built, therefore the harshness of the original Law was no longer necessary.

 

[Thief]

The whole Bible shouldn't be taken literally. What's the point of believing the bible is "God's Word" but you don't believe in the beginning of the book? It's like believing in Dr. Suess's "Green Eggs and Ham" as an actual event but you don't believe that the eggs were "green". What sense does it make?

Stir in a certain mushroom....the eggs turn green.
Does that shed light on what you have read?

 

[Thief]

I tend to feel that the Bible was put together by those who tried their best to understand God in the context of their culture and oral traditions. Therefore, I feel it's best to take a look at the various teachings, and use that which seems to make the most sense in today's world.

When we look at the creation accounts, why should we look at them in a literalistic manner but, instead, look at the morals and values that can be found within.

Surely you're not trying to say?....Moses did not meet God.

 

[metis]

Surely you're not trying to say?....Moses did not meet God.

Something like that would virtually impossible to confirm or prove wrong, so why should I make an assumption one way or another?

 

[captainbryce]

I would invite you and others to check out the debate between Hugh Ross and Kent Hovind. They go over some of the very stuff that you mention, and each one makes such a compelling case (Kent Hovind is a YEC, and Hugh Ross is a OEC) for their positions that I am completely torn between the two. I am open to both views. The debate was very engaging and stimulating, and I would recommend it to anyone that has questions that are similar to yours. The debate can be found on youtube.

[youtube]TaQr-G-YPW0[/youtube]
Young Earth vs Old Earth debate - YouTube

 

[CG Didymus]

I tend to feel that the Bible was put together by those who tried their best to understand God in the context of their culture and oral traditions. Therefore, I feel it's best to take a look at the various teachings, and use that which seems to make the most sense in today's world.

When we look at the creation accounts, why should we look at them in a literalistic manner but, instead, look at the morals and values that can be found within.

That's what I think happened. Even with the Bible in written form, every culture that takes it as their own adapts it to fit themselves. But, I understand why some people take as literal, because the stories are written as if they were real events. But then, so are the stories from other religions and cultures. So what is the common thread? The stories have meaning and moral and spiritual teachings for those people. Do the stories make sense today? That is very questionable. But some people in some religions need "their" stories to be taken as literal as possible or their beliefs and interpretations crumble.

 

[Ouroboros]

I tend to feel that the Bible was put together by those who tried their best to understand God in the context of their culture and oral traditions. Therefore, I feel it's best to take a look at the various teachings, and use that which seems to make the most sense in today's world.

Yup.

I see religious holy books and faith as humanity's search to understand life beyond just the physical. It's the attempt of finding a comprehensive and uniform answer to all of reality. It's like the search for a unified field theory.

When we look at the creation accounts, why should we look at them in a literalistic manner but, instead, look at the morals and values that can be found within.

Agree. And the concepts and ideas in there. For instance, I can't help but think of Adam and Eve story as an allegory for how technology, knowledge, and ego can have a damaging power of us. It's not just about knowing how the world works, but also feeling a connection to the world. The fall was about losing that connection to the Universe and existence as such. Sumtin' like that.

 

[Thief]

Yup.

I see religious holy books and faith as humanity's search to understand life beyond just the physical. It's the attempt of finding a comprehensive and uniform answer to all of reality. It's like the search for a unified field theory.


Agree. And the concepts and ideas in there. For instance, I can't help but think of Adam and Eve story as an allegory for how technology, knowledge, and ego can have a damaging power of us. It's not just about knowing how the world works, but also feeling a connection to the world. The fall was about losing that connection to the Universe and existence as such. Sumtin' like that.

I see Chapter Two as a divergence of Man from his previous animal form.
I see it with technical intervention....
ideal living conditions (petri dish/garden)....anesthesia...surgery....cloning....
genetic engineering...something like that.

 

[Thief]

Something like that would virtually impossible to confirm or prove wrong, so why should I make an assumption one way or another?

No assumption on my part.
What?....God is not allowed to talk to an old man?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

No assumption on my part.
What?....God is not allowed to talk to an old man?

I suppose if one existed God could...good luck finding a historical moses though.

 

[greentwiga]

Why can't one find a historical Moses? Why can't the story of Adam and Eve be historical? Both fit wonderfully within known historical facts. It is important that the spiritual lessons are paramount, but if you are willing to examine the facts, rather than dismiss because of prejudgement, you can see the truth of the stories.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why can't one find a historical Moses? Why can't the story of Adam and Eve be historical? Both fit wonderfully within known historical facts. It is important that the spiritual lessons are paramount, but if you are willing to examine the facts, rather than dismiss because of prejudgement, you can see the truth of the stories.

To take it literal the timeline has to be literal also. So 6000 years ago two people made a whole bunch of people that lived several centuries old. 4000 years ago a world-wide flood happened and drowned all but Noah's family. From them all of humanity came into being?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Why can't one find a historical Moses? Why can't the story of Adam and Eve be historical? Both fit wonderfully within known historical facts. It is important that the spiritual lessons are paramount, but if you are willing to examine the facts, rather than dismiss because of prejudgement, you can see the truth of the stories.

There is a difference between truth and historical fact.

The stories may indeed have truths to them, I.e a combination of various stories and tales brought together by a group of nomadic individuals who settled down in an area. However, as of yet findings have not been able to identify a historical Moses, or Abraham, or Isaac, or Jacob, or Joseph...what have been found are stories from collected cultures in the area that bear some semblance to the stories recorded in the Bible but with different characters, or different timelines.

But since you mentioned facts, what facts are there of a historical Adam and Eve? Or a Historical Moses? I'm always interested in information I may have missed

 

[greentwiga]

Actually, according to our interpretation it is 6,000 years ago. Does it really mean literal fathers and sons? In our culture, it does, but theirs? If you add up the total ages of the men, you get around 12,000 BC. Look for the invention of agriculture between then and 4,000 BC

 

[greentwiga]

There is a difference between truth and historical fact.

The stories may indeed have truths to them, I.e a combination of various stories and tales brought together by a group of nomadic individuals who settled down in an area. However, as of yet findings have not been able to identify a historical Moses, or Abraham, or Isaac, or Jacob, or Joseph...what have been found are stories from collected cultures in the area that bear some semblance to the stories recorded in the Bible but with different characters, or different timelines.

But since you mentioned facts, what facts are there of a historical Adam and Eve? Or a Historical Moses? I'm always interested in information I may have missed

Look at the location for Eden. find where the fig trees grew between the Tigris and Euphrates, before domestication. Locate the one and only mountain in the center of the region. That is where wheat was domesticated, according to the Bible. Now, where do the five German scientists say wheat was domesticated.
That is just a start. There is a lot more about the garden. Moses would be another thread, but it is also rich, if you use scientific absolute dating techniques.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Look at the location for Eden. find where the fig trees grew between the Tigris and Euphrates, before domestication. Locate the one and only mountain in the center of the region. That is where wheat was domesticated, according to the Bible. Now, where do the five German scientists say wheat was domesticated.
That is just a start. There is a lot more about the garden. Moses would be another thread, but it is also rich, if you use scientific absolute dating techniques.

Spider-man swings through New York. New York is a real place, but Spider Man is not.

The knowledge and writing of these stories used historical backdrops and possibly historical characters but as of yet and I say yet because I believe that facts change with evidence, the existence of particular historical characters such as Moses or Abraham are up in the air. Which again doesn't mean they did not exist (though apparently archaeologist have pretty much given up on finding evidence of the historical fathers--maybe someone can clarify this for me), or that they were not composites of actual individuals who existed.

As for Wheat

Wheat is one of the first cereals known to have been domesticated, and wheat's ability to self-pollinate greatly facilitated the selection of many distinct domesticated varieties. The archaeological record suggests that this first occurred in the regions known as the Fertile Crescent. Recent findings narrow the first domestication of wheat down to a small region of southeastern Turkey,[12] and domesticated Einkorn wheat at Nevalı Çori, 40 mi (64 km) northwest of Gobekli Tepe in Turkey—has been dated to 9,000 BCE.[13] However evidence for the exploitation of wild barley has been dated to 23,000 BCE and some say this is also true of pre-domesticated wheat.[14]

Do the Tigris and Euphrates cut through Turkey?

 

[Thief]

I suppose if one existed God could...good luck finding a historical moses though.

Leaning to history as a crutch?
That won't work.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Leaning to history as a crutch?
That won't work.

Those who forget their past are doomed to have others rewrite them.

 

[metis]

No assumption on my part.
What?....God is not allowed to talk to an old man?

But how is it not an assumption on your part? Were you there to witness this conversation?

This is not to say it didn't or couldn't have happened, but that there literally is no way to confirm it. And if one cannot confirm it, why believe it? What's wrong with saying "I don't know"?

Instead, let me suggest a different approach: study the 613 Laws of Moses and see which make sense and can be applied to your life.