Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

[Ouroboros]

I need to consider that Ouro

Sounds good to me. And don't worry, if you don't agree, I'm all okay with that too.

 

[greentwiga]

There is no geography where four rivers are present as described in the story, nor are mountains mentioned. Rivers don't have to lie along mountains. There are no mountains where the Missouri and Mississippi, or the Mississippi and Ohio converge.

Bread doesn't have to be made from wheat.

You're reaching.

No, you are right, the watershed divide does not have to be on a mountain. Much of the divide between the Tigris and Euphrates is on extremely flat land. The divide between three or four rivers, though is a point. Sort of like the meeting of three or four states (four corners between Ariz, Utah, Colo, New Mexico). Now look between the Tigris and Euphrates. Locate the 200 mm Isohyet line. Locate the 7,000 Feet line. Now look on Google Earth or any other geological map at the area in the trapezoid so defined. Tell me all the locations within the area that can be said to feed four rivers. Though two of the rivers that I stated are tributaries of the Tigris and Euphrates, they do have their own names. All four are fed from the same snow-pack. If you find another spot in that area that feeds four rivers, I'll consider that. Notice that I am generous with my lines. It is more like the 250 isohyet line and 3-4,000 foot line for the best growing, but I'll consider the larger area.

Tell me all the substances that people of the middle east living in the stone or bronze age made bread out of. No wish lists. Support your statement. If you can define another area by the new bread substance, I'll consider that. Remember that there is a reason that the first farmers were all found along the Taurus and Zagros Mountains, between the 200 mm isohyet line and the 7,000 foot line. Both Wheats, Barley, Chickpeas, lentils, flax, peas, and bitter vetch, the original farming package all grew only in this area. It is crescent shaped. Because the Bible limits itself to between the two main rivers, I limit to that area.

 

[sojourner]

No, you are right, the watershed divide does not have to be on a mountain. Much of the divide between the Tigris and Euphrates is on extremely flat land. The divide between three or four rivers, though is a point. Sort of like the meeting of three or four states (four corners between Ariz, Utah, Colo, New Mexico). Now look between the Tigris and Euphrates. Locate the 200 mm Isohyet line. Locate the 7,000 Feet line. Now look on Google Earth or any other geological map at the area in the trapezoid so defined. Tell me all the locations within the area that can be said to feed four rivers. Though two of the rivers that I stated are tributaries of the Tigris and Euphrates, they do have their own names. All four are fed from the same snow-pack. If you find another spot in that area that feeds four rivers, I'll consider that. Notice that I am generous with my lines. It is more like the 250 isohyet line and 3-4,000 foot line for the best growing, but I'll consider the larger area.

Tell me all the substances that people of the middle east living in the stone or bronze age made bread out of. No wish lists. Support your statement. If you can define another area by the new bread substance, I'll consider that. Remember that there is a reason that the first farmers were all found along the Taurus and Zagros Mountains, between the 200 mm isohyet line and the 7,000 foot line. Both Wheats, Barley, Chickpeas, lentils, flax, peas, and bitter vetch, the original farming package all grew only in this area. It is crescent shaped. Because the Bible limits itself to between the two main rivers, I limit to that area.

Here' the reality: Those four rivers don't exist, and never have.

 

[Aman777]

Here' the reality: Those four rivers don't exist, and never have.

Dear Readers, Some think that God was just lying to us in Genesis. He really meant to tell us that we evolved from some unknown Ape and swung out of the trees and began teaching at the University. So instead, He just made up some story about 4 rivers. Can we believe ANYthing these people tell us? Of course not. God Bless all of you and all of the False Teachers too.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Dear Readers, Some think that God was just lying to us in Genesis. He really meant to tell us that we evolved from some unknown Ape and swung out of the trees and began teaching at the University. So instead, He just made up some story about 4 rivers. Can we believe ANYthing these people tell us? Of course not. God Bless all of you and all of the False Teachers too.

In Love,
Aman

Nah. It makes soo much more sense that we are actually dirt people that ate a piece of fruit because a magic talking snake said so.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Dear Readers, Some think that God was just lying to us in Genesis. He really meant to tell us that we evolved from some unknown Ape and swung out of the trees and began teaching at the University. So instead, He just made up some story about 4 rivers. Can we believe ANYthing these people tell us? Of course not. God Bless all of you and all of the False Teachers too.

In Love,
Aman

Yea. Down with all that thar fancy schmancy book lernin n' what-not. I dun need no unuhversity ejuhcatun az long az I got Jeezus!

 

[outhouse]

No, you are right, the watershed divide does not have to be on a mountain. Much of the divide between the Tigris and Euphrates is on extremely flat land. The divide between three or four rivers, though is a point. Sort of like the meeting of three or four states (four corners between Ariz, Utah, Colo, New Mexico). Now look between the Tigris and Euphrates. Locate the 200 mm Isohyet line. Locate the 7,000 Feet line. Now look on Google Earth or any other geological map at the area in the trapezoid so defined. Tell me all the locations within the area that can be said to feed four rivers. Though two of the rivers that I stated are tributaries of the Tigris and Euphrates, they do have their own names. All four are fed from the same snow-pack. If you find another spot in that area that feeds four rivers, I'll consider that. Notice that I am generous with my lines. It is more like the 250 isohyet line and 3-4,000 foot line for the best growing, but I'll consider the larger area.

Tell me all the substances that people of the middle east living in the stone or bronze age made bread out of. No wish lists. Support your statement. If you can define another area by the new bread substance, I'll consider that. Remember that there is a reason that the first farmers were all found along the Taurus and Zagros Mountains, between the 200 mm isohyet line and the 7,000 foot line. Both Wheats, Barley, Chickpeas, lentils, flax, peas, and bitter vetch, the original farming package all grew only in this area. It is crescent shaped. Because the Bible limits itself to between the two main rivers, I limit to that area.

word salad


No real meaning and no real history either

 

[greentwiga]

Here' the reality: Those four rivers don't exist, and never have.

So you won't look. You would rather keep your beliefs than look for the truth.

 

[Iti oj]

So you won't look. You would rather keep your beliefs than look for the truth.

Use Google map, show me where. Your the one keeping beliefs and not looking....

Can you suggest a single reason to believe that didn't boil down to an authoritarian argument?

 

[sojourner]

Dear Readers, Some think that God was just lying to us in Genesis. He really meant to tell us that we evolved from some unknown Ape and swung out of the trees and began teaching at the University. So instead, He just made up some story about 4 rivers. Can we believe ANYthing these people tell us? Of course not. God Bless all of you and all of the False Teachers too.

In Love,
Aman

No one's saying "God was lying to us in Genesis." Some are saying that the best literary criticism shows us that the the creation myths in Genesis are myths -- not literal science or literal history -- and shouldn't be read as literal science or literal history. And lack of scientific evidence of what's put forth is further evidence of its mythic character.

Further, none of us are insisting that "God wrote Genesis." Human beings wrote Genesis.

Your argument means nothing.

 

[outhouse]

So you won't look. .

No you dont look.

Look at the Mesopotamians who had a first man called Adamu.



Look at reality that man factually evolved and this myth has no basis in reality.

 

[Thief]

No one's saying "God was lying to us in Genesis." Some are saying that the best literary criticism shows us that the the creation myths in Genesis are myths -- not literal science or literal history -- and shouldn't be read as literal science or literal history. And lack of scientific evidence of what's put forth is further evidence of its mythic character.

Further, none of us are insisting that "God wrote Genesis." Human beings wrote Genesis.

Your argument means nothing.

Evidence won't happen.
But you will get your answer, soon enough.

 

[greentwiga]

No you dont look.

Look at the Mesopotamians who had a first man called Adamu.



Look at reality that man factually evolved and this myth has no basis in reality.

I challenged you to look at Google Earth or an Atlas at the area that I mentioned. Either you will be intellectually honest and do it, or you will duck the issue by bringing up something not relevant to looking at the area.

 

[greentwiga]

Use Google map, show me where. Your the one keeping beliefs and not looking....

Can you suggest a single reason to believe that didn't boil down to an authoritarian argument?

As I said before, Find the Mountain, Karacadag (or Karaca Mtn) It is west of the City, Diyarkabar on the Tigris, and East of Haran and SanliUrfa, on the Balikh, a tributary of the Euphrates. It is North of the Al Khabur, and south of the ancient farming village, Cayonu, fed by a river coming off the north side of Karacadag. It is easy to find.

Your authoritarian argument statement is obscure. Besides I deal with verifiable specifics. I don't argue about unverifiable theories or arguments.

 

[outhouse]

I challenged you to look .

Look at the Mesopotamians who had a first man called Adamu.

 

[Robert.Evans]

So many things don't add up in Genesis. Like the Sun and stars, not only were they created after the Earth, but created after plants?

Everything comes from the higher-consciousness first (logos) and must be seen that way first. All other things following will be error one way or another. It must be seen that way to understand it. One is before and the other is the quantum effect. Without an observer, it does not exist.

But then, I was wondering; Adam gets kicked out of Eden and has to till the soil? This is based on Gen 4:23 and 4:2 where Adam is sent out to "cultivate" the ground and his son Cain was a "tiller" of the ground. What did they till it with? Did God make them a plow and a hoe or something?

You are assuming that this 'adam' is the first one. It is a poor assumption.

And then Abel, why was he keeping flocks? Weren't they vegetarians? Was it for wool? Did God make Eve a loom and Abel some shears?

Again, he also has a wife later. Where does she come from? So clearly not the first people on planet earth, nor does it say that they were... that is what we read in. It speaks of a certain group of people in a certain land.

I see Genesis as religious poetry, but some Christians, and I guess some Jews, see it as literal. Ken Ham on his TV show Answers in Genesis, insists that it must be taken literal, that it is foundational, without it the whole of the Bible falls. What do you think.

It is literal... but in what way? It must be understood to see what it means 'literally'. Without that understanding, it is not wise to take it too literally, otherwise we would miss where it shows that we have evolved... as everything must as all things are consciously evolving .

 

[Robert.Evans]

Look at the Mesopotamians who had a first man called Adamu.

They would have... the consciousness evolves in a fractal way... we would expect to see the same things repeated. It would be more of a worry if it did not.

 

[`mud]

"... they are different ripples on a single ocean... "

Waterspider's ripples...to the end of the pond and back,
and to come again, out, then back, and out again.
The gentle impressions of the dimpled surface,
the texture of yesterday, and back again into tomorrow.
There isn't ever a now, it fleets by too suddenly.
Like the flow of the story of Genesis,
to the edge and back, and back and forth,
it's a story....enjoy it !
We don't have to understand it.
~
'mud

 

[Thief]

Waterspider's ripples...to the end of the pond and back,
and to come again, out, then back, and out again.
The gentle impressions of the dimpled surface,
the texture of yesterday, and back again into tomorrow.
There isn't ever a now, it fleets by too suddenly.
Like the flow of the story of Genesis,
to the edge and back, and back and forth,
it's a story....enjoy it !
We don't have to understand it.
~
'mud

You had me up to the last line.
Not much point in keeping a story if you don't seek the point.

The first four lines are really nice.

 

[`mud]

Just a story, nothing more.
Just enjoy.
~
'mud