can a priest really forgive sin?

[lilithu]

Do you think a priest has the power to forgive and purify a sinner?

In all honesty, I don't know whether priests have that power or not. But I do know that I have many a time wished that I believed my ministers could do that for me, and have told them so.

A friend of mine who is kind of a Catholic atheist told me that even tho he no longer believes in the teachings of the church, the experience of being forgiven by a priest was extremely moving and something that he continues to carry with him as a positive about the church.

I tend to agree with Guitar's Cry that the act of confession itself is cleansing regardless of whether the priest has any special powers. And if a person goes to a priest asking for forgiveness, it seems to me that at the very least that person is giving the priest said power to forgive him or her. So who are we to question otherwise?

Does the church have the right to excommunicate a person?

Umm... why not? Why wouldn't any religion have the right to exclude people from that religion?

Does the church have the right to play G-D?

No, but in what way is the church playing G-d? That's a question that posed as a question but is really making a statement of condemnation.

Is this a heresy on the churches behalf?

Is what a heresy on the church's behalf? The only substantive question that I've seen here is whether or not priests have the power to forgive, and either way it hardly seems like heresy.

 

[XAAX]

If anyone wants to learn about Catholicism, don't read Peter De Rosa's material. The dude is one angry anti-catholic. His works is so heavily baised that one doesn't have to be a catholic to spot it. It's mixed with half-truths and lies right by each other. There is many non-catholics with much more accurate works then him.

jmaster, I'm more then happy to be part of this thread but you have quite a few questions that can get lengthy to respond to. Can you possibly narrow this thread down to priest really forgive sins?

Don't know anything about this guy you are talking about, but I will say that this is the typical response from people when someone says something about their faith that comes a little to close to the truth...Its always...half truths...or misleading statements...What does this mean? The truths are interpreted different from yours?

Since the question has been asked, No, in my opinion, a priest has about as much ability to affect this as an atheist. No one can affect Karma that way. Although I do not believe in Sin (man made concept), someone can do evil. Now what you do after isn't going to matter one bit. You will still get the karmic repercussions for those actions. Think of it as a pendulum, if you start is swinging, it’s going to come back to you...

 

[lilithu]

Since the question has been asked, No, in my opinion, a priest has about as much ability to affect this as an atheist. No one can affect Karma that way. Although I do not believe in Sin (man made concept), someone can do evil. Now what you do after isn't going to matter one bit. You will still get the karmic repercussions for those actions. Think of it as a pendulum, if you start is swinging, it’s going to come back to you...

Forgiveness is not about getting out of the repercussions of karma. A murderer can be forgiven by his/her victim's family and yet still have to serve a jail sentence (or worse). Forgiveness is spiritual - being forgiven allows one to rebuild, to heal one's soul.

 

[XAAX]

Forgiveness is not about getting out of the repercussions of karma. A murderer can be forgiven by his/her victim's family and yet still have to serve a jail sentence (or worse). Forgiveness is spiritual - being forgiven allows one to rebuild, to heal one's soul.

I wasn't speaking on the being forgiven in the human sense of the word as in forgiving someone for their actions. You don't need anyone to give you this type of forgiveness for spirituality. It is a personal decision that one makes within themselves. Even once you make the decision to change your actions, you will still receive what you deserve for your actions. There are no get out of jail free cards in spirituality. Balance has to be maintained...

 

[lilithu]

I wasn't speaking on the being forgiven in the human sense of the word as in forgiving someone for their actions. You don't need anyone to give you this type of forgiveness for spirituality. It is a personal decision that one makes within themselves.

That's your opinion. That's not the way that it works in Judaism. And not the way that it works in Christianity. And my opinion is that I agree with Judaism and Christianity. You're view is too individualistic for my tastes.

 

[maggie2]

Hi all, i read a book a while ago called 'Vicars of Christ-Dark side of the Papacy' it was very interesting with regards to some (many) of the freaks who have worn the Papal tiara. How they were regarded as earthly reps for G-D defied me. although modern Popes act more like they are meant to, do they or indeed the church really have as much power as we are lead to believe?

Do you think a priest has the power to forgive and purify a sinner?
Does the church have the right to excommunicate a person?
Does the church have the right to play G-D?
Is this a heresy on the churches behalf?

I would have to agree that this author is very anti-Catholic. And I also agree that you need to read something that is more moderate.

IMO the Catholic church, just like any church has had some awful leaders and some aswsome ones. It is an imperfect organization, just like any other.

As to your specific questions:

1. I personally don't think a priest has the power to forgive sin. However, I'm not a Catholic, so I wouldn't believe that anyway. Additionally I don't really believe in sin as it is presented in the Christian church so it would be hard for me to believe anyone could 'forgive' it.

2. I don't see why they wouldn't have the right to excommunicate someone. It's a private organization with it's own rules.

3. No one has the right to play God, whether a church or an individual; at least not in the sense that you seem to be referring to.

4. If Catholics believe this then why would it be a heresy to them? It may be so to me, who doesn't believe it, but I'm not part of their church so why would I call it a heresy? It's just something I don't believe.

 

[Ðanisty]

very good point, but if i commit a great sin, tell someone which eases my guilt, does that mean the sin is forgiven? just because i feel less guilty?

I don't know that it affects the sin itself, but I believe it helps a lot of people move on to the point where they can begin making ammends.

Don't know anything about this guy you are talking about, but I will say that this is the typical response from people when someone says something about their faith that comes a little to close to the truth...Its always...half truths...or misleading statements...What does this mean? The truths are interpreted different from yours?

Just curious, what kind of response would you expect when someone says something about their faith that is that doesn't come close to the truth? How would such a reaction be any different? You're implying that a person can't honestly disagree...that to do so is always some sort of admission of guilt. :areyoucra

 

[XAAX]

That's your opinion. That's not the way that it works in Judaism. And not the way that it works in Christianity. And my opinion is that I agree with Judaism and Christianity. You're view is too individualistic for my tastes.

Oh, you can't gain this yourself...Ok lilithu, you are forgiven for your sins...does that work better for you? Why do you think you need someone to tell you that? When you "stand before God", it will only be you, no one else to be your go between...I would recommend getting better acquainted on your own before that time comes...

 

[lilithu]

Just curious, what kind of response would you expect when someone says something about their faith that is that doesn't come close to the truth? How would such a reaction be any different? You're implying that a person can't honestly disagree...that to do so is always some sort of admission of guilt. :areyoucra

Frubals. If one is going to question the motives of someone else, the reasoning cannot be circular. It cannot be the case that the person's very objections is proof of guilt.

 

[XAAX]

Just curious, what kind of response would you expect when someone says something about their faith that is that doesn't come close to the truth? How would such a reaction be any different? You're implying that a person can't honestly disagree...that to do so is always some sort of admission of guilt. :areyoucra

It's just a response to so many arguments I see on here. Because someone explains things that could be just as true as someone belief, the only argument they throw out there is, these are half truths. Are they or are they the same truths with a different interpretation. If so they are just as valid and shouldn't be said to be incorrect simply because one disagrees with it.

 

[XAAX]

Frubals. If one is going to question the motives of someone else, the reasoning cannot be circular. It cannot be the case that the person's very objections is proof of guilt.

Sometimes due to the lack of logical reasoning in religions these types of circular paradoxes are created all by themselves. They just are acknowledged...

 

[lilithu]

Oh, you can't gain this yourself...Ok lilithu, you are forgiven for your sins...does that work better for you?

In the Jewish tradition, only those whom I have wronged have the power to forgive me (as I have the power to forgive those who have wronged me). And in the Christian tradition it comes from the clergy. In either case, you don't fit the bill. Seriously, try understanding a tradition before you ridicule it.

Why do you think you need someone to tell you that? When you "stand before God", it will only be you, no one else to be your go between...I would recommend getting better acquainted on your own before that time comes...

Why do you think that you can do it all by yourself? I am not asking for a go-between between me and God. Ultimately, I alone am accountable. But I'm just not so arrogant so as to believe that I can do be my best all on my own. Left to one's own devices, an individual can delude him/herself into all sorts of rationalizations. It is within the bonds of community that we are our best selves.

 

[lilithu]

Sometimes due to the lack of logical reasoning in religions these types of circular paradoxes are created all by themselves. They just are acknowledged...

Oh yay, more circular reasoning.

 

[XAAX]

Seriously, try understanding a tradition before you ridicule it.

Been there, done that, why do you think I would be trying to explain it to you?

Why do you think that you can do it all by yourself? I am not asking for a go-between between me and God. Ultimately, I alone am accountable. But I'm just not so arrogant so as to believe that I can do be my best all on my own.

I can do it myself, just as everyone else can when they stop deluding themselves with ridiculous superstitious notions from religions. That is true, you alone are accountable, it is also true, that you alone are the only one who can change yourself spiritually.

Left to one's own devices, an individual can delude him/herself into all sorts of rationalizations.

I guess their methods worked on you. With that statement you have confirmed it. Oh we can't think for ourselves, who knows what logical reasoning we might come up with. :biglaugh:

 

[lilithu]

Been there, done that, why do you think I would be trying to explain it to you?

Yeah, well I've already tried your route and found it lacking, so there.

 

[jmaster78]

this is just an idea i had while reading your replies so it could be completely wrong.

G-D is not on the other end of a microphone hidden in the confession booth. G-D is in our hearts, whether we know it or not, whether we deny it, whether we don't want him there, whether we do, he is still there sinner or saint. when we confess be it to a priest, friend, councellor or even stranger, it is our heart that confesses, the moving of our lips and the sound that comes out is just a physical side effect. If being in the presence of a priest helps the heart open more easily, then this is a good thing, but if someones guilt or their want to repent is strong enough then there is no need for a priest.


does that make sence?

 

[lilithu]

this is just an idea i had while reading your replies so it could be completely wrong.

G-D is not on the other end of a microphone hidden in the confession booth. G-D is in our hearts, whether we know it or not, whether we deny it, whether we don't want him there, whether we do, he is still there sinner or saint. when we confess be it to a priest, friend, councellor or even stranger, it is our heart that confesses, the moving of our lips and the sound that comes out is just a physical side effect. If being in the presence of a priest helps the heart open more easily, then this is a good thing, but if someones guilt or their want to repent is strong enough then there is no need for a priest.


does that make sence?

I would mostly agree with that. Then again, I'm not Catholic.

What I would like to emphasize however, is that the act of confession to someone else, is a powerful act. Yes, if someone wants to repent strongly enough, it could be a purely internal dialogue, but I think you and I both know from experience that it is one thing to feel sorry for something and another to actually say the words. The speaking to someone else is much harder, and so there is power in the act of doing it.

Because I am not Catholic, I personally don't think it needs to be a priest on the other end. It could be a trusted someone. I think the key element is a deep sense of trust. It's hard to spill your guts for fear of being judged, etc. Otoh, I understand the value of it being a priest and not personal a friend, lest one strain the friendship with the confession.

I also have the sense that you think two persons are listening during the confession, the person to whom we're speaking - via lips, sound, and ear - and God - via our hearts. I do agree with that, but I also believe that the two are not separate from each other. I believe that humans have divinity within them and therefore a confession to a human is a confession to God.

For me, yes, it's true that God is in my own heart but that by itself is only a small spark. And it will stay small if kept isolated. True communion with God comes thru the interaction with the divinity in others. Together, the divinity in each of us is strengthened. When Christians say that God is love, I think that's a large part of what is meant. God is in relationships, in the interactions between people. A spirituality that is purely individual cannot be as strong as one in community.

 

[jmaster78]

I would mostly agree with that. Then again, I'm not Catholic.

What I would like to emphasize however, is that the act of confession to someone else, is a powerful act. Yes, if someone wants to repent strongly enough, it could be a purely internal dialogue, but I think you and I both know from experience that it is one thing to feel sorry for something and another to actually say the words. The speaking to someone else is much harder, and so there is power in the act of doing it.

Because I am not Catholic, I personally don't think it needs to be a priest on the other end. It could be a trusted someone. I think the key element is a deep sense of trust. It's hard to spill your guts for fear of being judged, etc. Otoh, I understand the value of it being a priest and not personal a friend, lest one strain the friendship with the confession.

I also have the sense that you think two persons are listening during the confession, the person to whom we're speaking - via lips, sound, and ear - and God - via our hearts. I do agree with that, but I also believe that the two are not separate from each other. I believe that humans have divinity within them and therefore a confession to a human is a confession to God.

For me, yes, it's true that God is in my own heart but that by itself is only a small spark. And it will stay small if kept isolated. True communion with God comes thru the interaction with the divinity in others. Together, the divinity in each of us is strengthened. When Christians say that God is love, I think that's a large part of what is meant. God is in relationships, in the interactions between people. A spirituality that is purely individual cannot be as strong as one in community.

It is true that in almost all cases the act of confessiong to another person is harder therefore it is a more humbling and powerful act, a sign that the person truely recognises their sin and wishes to repent. But sometimes confessions are not as pure as they should be, in the past people have used this show of regret to lure others into a false sence of security etc. I know this is very rare, but my point is you can fool someone else, but you cant fool G-D for he truely knows what is in your heart. That we would both agree i think.

I definitely agree with you on the point of confessing to another person as a way of opening up and saying 'this is who i am, this is what i've done, i want to change who i am.' G-D can make you a better person if you let him, but so can other people, people you might have to face everyday, who can help steer you in the right direction.

If a priest or someone else listens to your confession, tells you your forgiven then washes their hands of the matter, this isn't as beneficial as it could be, if they keep in contact with you like a good doctor visits his patients after surgery this is much better. This is where the benefits of confessing to another person really help. But it depends on the other person.

 

[wizanda]

Even Christ/Yeshua said he sent the sins...God chooses and is judge, no one else.

 

[Apostle_Yohanan]

Hi all, i read a book a while ago called 'Vicars of Christ-Dark side of the Papacy' it was very interesting with regards to some (many) of the freaks who have worn the Papal tiara. How they were regarded as earthly reps for G-D defied me. although modern Popes act more like they are meant to, do they or indeed the church really have as much power as we are lead to believe?

Do you think a priest has the power to forgive and purify a sinner?
Does the church have the right to excommunicate a person?
Does the church have the right to play G-D?
Is this a heresy on the churches behalf?

Hey jmaster ,i'm am going to attempt to answer your question and i hope that this gives you a little closure on your question.Firstly, i am not speaking as a catholic or a christian am speaking as a man that has a belief in Yahveh(G-D) and everything that he stands for.Q#1 ? .Matt 23:9 states
(And do not call anyone on earth your father, for One is your Father, He who is in the heavens.) the problem with this is that the papacy practices the opposite of this warning, saying Forgive me father for i have sinned acording to the holy scriptures is a trangression of the word.If you look in the entire bible there is not one verse that shows any application of the emissaries ever forgiving people as if they had the power
to do so.It was always said by them first to repent so your heavenly father will forgive your sins.Q #2 ? The church does have the right to excummunicate one that is rebellious and non-repentive(1Corinthians 5:1-5)States...
1Co 5:1 It is commonly reported that there is whoring among you, and such whoring as is not even named among the gentiles, so as one to have his father’s wife!
1Co 5:2 And you have been puffed up, and did not rather mourn, so that he who has done this deed, be removed from among you!
1Co 5:3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged the one who did this, as though I were present.
1Co 5:4 In the Name of our Master יהושע Messiah, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Master יהושע Messiah,
1Co 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, in order that his spirit be saved in the day of the Master יהושע.



Q. #3 ? No the church does not have the right to play G-D,All we are on earth is YAHVEH P.R people,we are suppose to be an example to others that don't know him, so by our actions they may come to know him...He does give us power(Ability) to prosper in health,wealth,mind body and spirit.Matt 6:33(Seek ye first the kingdom of Elohim and all his rightousness and all things shall be added unto you).. and also give us the power to heal the sick,Raise the dead ,cast of devils.feed the hungry and so on
Mat 10:5 יהושע sent these twelve out, having commanded them, saying, "Do not go into the way of the gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Shomeronites,
Mat 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.
Mat 10:7 "And as you go, proclaim, saying, ‘The reign of the heavens has drawn near.’
Mat 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. You have received without paying, give without being paid.

Brother Jmaster i understand your (concern ,your gripe,your issues or what ever you want to call them) with the church. i also have concerns with certain teaches and institutionalized doctrines of the church.We are the authurity we are embassadors for the kingdom of heaven.I know that some of us make this walk look unattractive and make some unbelievers out their turn their noses up at us but all i can say is that seek and you will find the answers that you have been looking for,i promise if you asked the heaven for knowledge and understand in his ultimate plan of things he will answer just believe and put forth your best effort it will not go in vain...but remember ..to much who it is giving ..much is required..one more thing before i go a wise man once told me that intellects will never understand the scriptures because they use their own intellect to interpret what inprets it's self.the bible is not a science book, it's living and it' speak let it interpret it's self to you all you have to do is be quiet and listen.......Shalom