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Can a Sufi reach a level in which hes to longer accountable to God?

fenrisx

Member
I would argue no, with the potential interpretation that what might be meant is that once you achieve a certain level of mastery along the Path, your personal development may theoretically place you at a point where the point becomes moot. Sufism seeks to love God after all as opposed to fearing him. Similar perhaps to achieved a state of Buddha hood in that path after enough progress.
 
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SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
This reminds me of stories about Sufis who would get drunk during Ramadan.

Which I feel was to say it's not WHAT we do, but WHY we do it and practice austerities and rituals in the first place.

I could be wrong, but this is the 'non-attachment'/'renunciation of worldly definitions' I see and am reminded of.

:namaste
SageTree
 
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DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Some Sufis are said to have "reached" a level where in fact they have achieved oneness with God and no longer distinguish between God and things that are not God. At this point they have complete surrender to God are completely absorbed in/by/with God and no longer have a separate nature from God. So it would follow that because they have fully surrendered themselves to God and no longer distinguish between God and not God, then things like swearing and like have no inherent evil nature because they see all things as God.

But this is very controversial in some circles.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
Some Sufis are said to have "reached" a level where in fact they have achieved oneness with God and no longer distinguish between God and things that are not God. At this point they have complete surrender to God are completely absorbed in/by/with God and no longer have a separate nature from God. So it would follow that because they have fully surrendered themselves to God and no longer distinguish between God and not God, then things like swearing and like have no inherent evil nature because they see all things as God.

But this is very controversial in some circles.


Nicely stated.


Usually I feel like I'm the one doing the talking and another is summing up a similar point with a few words...

This is essentially what I was getting at in brief (non-attachment/renunciation of worldly definitions)...
They've gone beyond or arrived at a point where 'right' and 'wrong' are perceptions.
 
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DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Nicely stated.


Usually I feel like I'm the one doing the talking and another is summing up a similar point with a few words...

This is essentially what I was getting at in brief (non-attachment)...
They've gone beyond or arrived at a point where 'right' and 'wrong' are perceptions.

Oops. I guess we just got at the same point from different perspectives :confused:
 

muslim-

Active Member
The other thing I'd have to say I noticed is this is the second video with this man's involvement today....

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/121990-aljazeera-documentary-sufism.html

Is there more to that than coincidence?

Respectfully said,
SageTree

Im not sure what you mean by that but I dont know the guy (or know anyone that knows him) at all if thats what you mean. I dont believe in Sufism at all (I follow the way of the salaf) , but I know hes a prominent Sufi "Master" so wanted to see what Sufis here thought, especially that I had read some posts in which some even consider Sufism as a "field" (for lack of a better word) that isn't related to any particular religion.

By the way thank you for the message you sent, im still trying to figure out how to post a reply as its only allowing private messages!
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
Im not sure what you mean by that but I dont know the guy (or know anyone that knows him) at all if thats what you mean. I dont believe in Sufism at all (I follow the way of the salaf) , but I know hes a prominent Sufi "Master" so wanted to see what Sufis here thought, especially that I had read some posts in which some even consider Sufism as a "field" (for lack of a better word) that isn't related to any particular religion.

By the way thank you for the message you sent, im still trying to figure out how to post a reply as its only allowing private messages!


Thanks for explaining.I see now.

To reply with a private message is the 'quote' button.
replying with a visitor message is to hit 'view conversation'

Is that what you mean?
 

muslim-

Active Member
Thanks for explaining.I see now.

To reply with a private message is the 'quote' button.
replying with a visitor message is to hit 'view conversation'

Is that what you mean?

Yes, I click on view conversation but get no box to type in a reply. All I can see is options of approving and deleting etc.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
I think that means you are clicked 'friendship' notification perhaps?

Go to your profile, by clicking on your name and click 'view conversation', which is what I think you want to reply to me.

I'm out for this evening, speak with you tomorrow Lord willing :)

SageTree
 

muslim-

Active Member
I think that means you are clicked 'friendship' notification perhaps?

Go to your profile, by clicking on your name and click 'view conversation', which is what I think you want to reply to me.

I'm out for this evening, speak with you tomorrow Lord willing :)

SageTree

I did click view conversation but it doesn't give me a box to reply in. But thanks anyway :)
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
I think it has to do with how long you have been a member. There is a certain time frame until you are able to put messages on other peoples profiles. I cant find the actual paragraph containing said information though.
 

muslim-

Active Member
I think it has to do with how long you have been a member. There is a certain time frame until you are able to put messages on other peoples profiles. I cant find the actual paragraph containing said information though.

Thank you. I thought that might be the case but didnt know for sure.
 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
Some Sufis are said to have "reached" a level where in fact they have achieved oneness with God and no longer distinguish between God and things that are not God. At this point they have complete surrender to God are completely absorbed in/by/with God and no longer have a separate nature from God. So it would follow that because they have fully surrendered themselves to God and no longer distinguish between God and not God, then things like swearing and like have no inherent evil nature because they see all things as God.

But this is very controversial in some circles.

Sometimes people say things in the state of intoxication which should not be given relevance by others. Imam Ghazali took a lenient view of such expressions of some of the Sufis, who uttered things like, "I am the Creative Truth", "Within this Robe is naught but God" etc. He never condemned them, and the most he said regarding them was this,

The worlds of passionate lovers in the state of ecstasy should be concealed and not spoken of.

Regards.
 

muslim-

Active Member
Sometimes people say things in the state of intoxication which should not be given relevance by others. Imam Ghazali took a lenient view of such expressions of some of the Sufis, who uttered things like, "I am the Creative Truth", "Within this Robe is naught but God" etc. He never condemned them, and the most he said regarding them was this,



Regards.

You didnt provide a reference for the quote, but anyhow, that statement about not speaking of the beliefs, is pretty widespread in Sufi and Baatini cultures (Sufism, Shiasm, Alawi, Isma'eeli etc) in general. This is why sometimes discussing things with them, it becomes hard because sadly, they arent clear to others about their beliefs.

Anyhow, back to Al Ghazzali, it is important to know that he went through many stages in his life. The following explains this. (I didnt write it)

Adh-Dhahabi narrated in his book, that Muhammad ibn al-Waleed al-Tartooshi said, "…he became a Sufi and forsook knowledge and its people, then he got involved with 'inspiration' - those who claim to have spiritual knowledge and the insinuating whispers of the Shaytan. Then he mixed that with the views of the philosophers and the symbolic phrases of al-Hallaaj. He started to criticize the fuqaha (jurists) and the scholars of Ilmul-Kalaam. He almost went astray from the religion altogether when he wrote al-Ihya [i.e., Ihya Uloom al-Deen]. He started to speak of the inspiration and symbolic words of the Sufis although he was not qualified to do that and had no deep knowledge of such atters. Hence he failed and filled his book with fabricated reports, "I (ad-Dhahabi) say, "as for al-Ihya, it contains many false ahadeeth and it contains much that is good. I wish that it did not contain etiquette, rituals and asceticism that are in accordance with the ways of the philosophers and deviant Sufis. We ask Allah for beneficial knowledge.

Do you know what beneficial knowledge is? It is that which Allah revealed in the Qur'aan, which was explained by the Messenger in word and deed, and the type of knowledge which we are not forbidden to acquire. The Prophet said, "Whoever turns away from my Sunnah does not belong to me." So, my brother, you must ponder over the Words of Allah and persist in studying al-Saheehayn (Saheeh al-Bukharee and Saheeh Muslim), Sunan al-Nasa'ee, Riyadh an-Nawawi and al-Adhkaar by an-Nawawi, and then you will succeed and prosper. Beware of the opinions of the philosophers, the practice of spiritual exercises, the starvation of monks, and the nonsense talk of those who stay alone for long periods in their monasteries. All goodness is to be found in following the pure and tolerant way of the haneefs. And seek the help of Allah. O Allah, guide us to Your straight path.”

At the end of his life, al-Ghazzali (rahimahullah) returned to the belief of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah. He focused on the Qur'aan and the Sunnah and condemned Ilmul-Kalaam and its proponents. He advised the Ummah to come back to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger , and to act in accordance with them as was the way of the Sahabah.

Shaikhul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (rahimahullah) said, "After that he (al-Ghazzali) came back to the path of the scholars of hadeeth and wrote Iljaam al-Awwaam an Ilm al-Kalaam."
[Siyar A'laam an-Nubula (19/340]
[Majmoo (4/72)]

A glance at 'Iljaam al-Awwaam an Ilm al-Kalaam ' will prove to us that al-Ghazzali had indeed changed in many ways:

1. In this book he advocated the belief of the salaf and pointed out that the way of the salaf was the truth, and that whoever went against them was an innovator or follower of bidah.

2. He emphatically denounced ta'weel (interpretation of the Attributes of Allah in a manner that differs from their apparent meaning). He advocated affirming the Attributes of Allah and not misinterpreting them in a manner that would lead to denying the attributes of Allah.

3. He emphatically denounced the scholars of Ilmul-Kalaam and described all their principles and standards as reprehensible innovations, which had harmed a great number of people and created trouble for the Muslims. Al-Ghazzali said, "The harm caused to a great number of people is something that has been seen, witnessed and experienced. The evil that has resulted since Ilmul-Kalaam began has become widespread, even though people at the time of the Sahabah forbade that. This is also indicated by the fact that the Messenger and the Sahabah, by consensus, did not follow the way of the scholars of Ilmul-Kalaam when they produced arguments, evidence and analysis. That was not because they were incapable of doing so. If they had thought that it was something good, they would have done it in the best manner, and they would have studied the matter hard, more than they did with regard to the division of the estate among the heirs.”

(Now I, Muslim- continue) ..

Some however say he still had a remaining of beliefs on certain issues from here and there..

They'd quote his closest companion, Abu Bakr ibn al-Arabi who refuted his ideas saying, "Our shaykh Abu Haamid went deep into philosophy then he wanted to come out of it but he was unable to. There were narrated from him opinions which sound like the Baatini way of speaking, and that may be verified by looking in al-Ghazzali's books."

The point isnt his beliefs towards the end of his life, but that he went through many stages in his life, embracing something, then writing a book refuting it and so on. So this should always be taken into consideration when quoting him.
 
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A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
Perhaps this should be moved to the debates section (I was just warned for debating in the non debate section).

The quote in question is from the book, "Biographical encyclopaedia of Sufis: Central Asia and Middle East By N. Hanif" (Pg 166 on google books).

I am aware of all what you have said, but am not sure what you intend to establish here. Do you claim that Imam Ghazali turned away from Sufism towards the end? Quite on the contrary, he turned away from Ilm-Kalam, philosophy and authoritarianism towards the end. In fact, I would say that Islamic philosophy never recovered from the attacks of Imam Ghazali entirely (his works such as The Incoherence of the Philosophers were most notable in that direction). I think you have a misunderstanding regarding the Sufism meant by Imam Ghazali, and particularly regarding what are the things Imam Ghazali turned away from and towards where.

At the end of his life at the side of his home he built a school for teaching fiqh, which always had been his main area of teaching, as well as a Sufi monastery for those in search of prayer, spiritual learning and ascetic practice. Ghazali himself undertook for the first time intensive study of hadith or the traditions regarding the prophet. He continued writing till his very last days and passed away on Monday 14 Jumada II, 505.

Anyway if you want to read of the amazing journey of Imam Ghazali first hand you can read his own book "The deliverance from error" here. It is a short book and I am sure you would find it revealing.

Regards
 

Alulu

Member
Sheikh Ibn Taymiyya also acknowledged explicitly that sufis can be in a state of absentmindedness in which they utter things that are normally not accepted. He mentions fana fillah, a sufi term meaning 'annihilation in God'. A state of mind where one visions God everywhere and none but Him, to such an extent that in this state of mind he even thinks of himself as non-existent because He is drowned in the love and presence of the Almighty.

It has however always been a controversial subject as well. What all scholars agree on is that one who is not sane is not to be accountable according to Islamic jurisprudence. Such as an old lady that became dement or someone who is mentally disabled. And from this point of view comes the question in if that applies to certain people in their spiritual states as well, where at least they SEEM to lose themselves.

Extra note: Ghazali did die as a sufi and did not condemn Ilm al kalam as a whole at the end of his life. He mentions quite explicitly in one of his latter books that it is needed sometimes but prefers to abstain from when it is not necessary.
 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
Extra note: Ghazali did die as a sufi and did not condemn Ilm al kalam as a whole at the end of his life. He mentions quite explicitly in one of his latter books that it is needed sometimes but prefers to abstain from when it is not necessary.

I agree to what you said. When I said he turned away from Ilm-e-Kalam I meant that he turned away from it in his pursuit of understanding the true nature of things, and found that sort of knowledge inadequate. And that is all.
 
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