Can an agnostic pray?

[Philos]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

P.

 

[Kemosloby]

Why go to a church to pray?

 

[danieldemol]

Anyone can pray if they want to

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Yes and after visiting some old temples i discover they have an aura, peace and tranquility making them appropriate to open up ones spirit and perhaps pray

 

[Philos]

Yes and after visiting some old temples i discover they have an aura, peace and tranquility making them appropriate to open up ones spirit and perhaps pray

Hi,

Yes, I was trying to think of an answer to the "why..church?" post and you have answered it perfectly for me.

Also, it doesn't matter to me which religion the church represents, but here in the UK, Christian churches are common, usually open and almost always empty. There are candles which we can light, to help focus on the loved one or the subject of the prayer.

I am almost certain that I am not praying to the 'Christian' God, but have some notion that whatever the metaphysics is, I am addressing it directly. Your words "..open up ones spirit" are most encouraging.

Thank you,

P.

 

[Altfish]

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

Both atheists and agnostics can pray if they want, no one's stopping them. Bit of a waste of effort though if you don't believe.

 

[Windwalker]

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

A believer will direct prayer to the object of their faith, namely God or some other figure of their religion. This activity is reaching out symbolically to something greater than themselves. And that activity has a psychological, emotional, and spiritual result.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

An atheist can pray as well, but the object of their faith is outside religious symbols, such as connecting with the beauty of nature or the universe, or some other thing that represents reality greater than themselves as the center. The results will be the same for them as for the believer.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

An agnostic may or may not choose to include a divine figure as the object or focus of prayer because they don't rule the existence of God out. It's still a potential symbol at they may choose to use. They simply don't like to define it as narrowly as certain religions do. Or they too can simply send the intention of the will outwards from themselves to some general 'higher Self' in some other symbolic fashion. The end result for them is the same as for the believer, or the atheist who reach out beyond themselves, beyond their egos to something greater than themselves.

there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Absolutely. What is happening is you are doing a form of focused meditation. Meditation takes many forms and practices. The deeper you take it, the greater the reward and benefit to you.

Any thoughts?

If you want to explore in a little greater depth what I briefly touched on here, I posted this in the following hyperlink sometime back you may find useful to you. Otherwise, feel free to explore any further questions here if you have any: Praying to god for help, does it really make any sense?

 

[rusra02]

I believe the true God will respond to sincere prayers; whether he does or not depends on the motives and attitude of the one praying, IMO. (Isaiah 1:15,16)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

P.

You can pray just to be thankful. Instead of to someone you pray to connect with whatever you feel when you pray. Verbal prayers dont need to address anyone anymore than saying something out loud as you get ready for work to keep your mind focused means youre talking anyone (and you may know youre not).

Anyone can pray. There doesnt need to be a listner since its your own spiritual well being not anyone else's.

Edit

Also, as long as you respect religious cultural norms and practices, there is nothing wrong praying in a church.

 

[Windwalker]

I wanted to add something interesting that came to mind in the how the believer's perspective or way of holding these things sees God as "answering prayer". There's something hidden in the Gospel of Mark that's a real gem that I think most Christians can't see. It's the story of the woman who reaches out through the crowd of people all pressing in on Jesus. The story has it that when she touched him, he felt "power" leave him, and she was healed. The story then has him singling her out of the crowd and says something rather remarkable. "Your faith has made you whole".

That is exactly what "prayer" is. It is "your faith". And the activity of exercising that is what heals us. It's not "God" sending down magic, but the "magic" in us healing us through us exercising it, in whichever manner or form that takes, be that with God as the object of faith, or Love, or Life, or Spirit, or the Universe, or Others, or.... fill in the blank with whatever represents that Ultimate Good for you. The story represents how we are transformed through faith. It's far more symbolic than being some 'magic' or 'miracle' thing. The story isn't about that, but about faith in everyone.

The only thing really that's different is how we mentally think about these things, not the reality of faith itself, which takes many forms. That faith is that "reaching" beyond ourselves. And some minds will conceive of it in mythological symbols, such as beings in a spirit world handing out answers to prayers from above, or in other ways more compatible with science and reason where faith does not need to deny those things in order to be exercised in us.

 

[Philos]

An agnostic may or may not choose to include a divine figure as the object or focus of prayer because they don't rule the existence of God out. It's still a potential symbol at they may choose to use. They simply don't like to define it as narrowly as certain religions do. Or they too can simply send the intention of the will outwards from themselves to some general 'higher Self' in some other symbolic fashion. The end result for them is the same as for the believer, or the atheist who reach out beyond themselves, beyond their egos to something greater than themselves.

Windwalker,

I value your whole post, but the lines above interest me the most.

As an agnostic, I don't feel that I 'choose' any object or focus of prayer. Its more like a radio telescope, beaming a message to wherever there may be a receiver of any nature. However, like the operator of the radio telescope, I would hope for the message to be understood, which does imply characteristics that I would want. Indeed, I would be disingenuous to deny that my prayer courts empathy, in the way that I feel empathy for others and myself.

I'm not convinced that an atheist would be doing the same thing as me if they 'pray' but that analysis is above my theological pay scale.

P.

 

[Philos]

I wanted to add something interesting that came to mind in the how the believer's perspective or way of holding these things sees God as "answering prayer". There's something hidden in the Gospel of Mark that's a real gem that I think most Christians can't see. It's the story of the woman who reaches out through the crowd of people all pressing in on Jesus. The story has it that when she touched him, he felt "power" leave him, and she was healed. The story then has him singling her out of the crowd and says something rather remarkable. "Your faith has made you whole".

That is exactly what "prayer" is. It is "your faith". And the activity of exercising that is what heals us. It's not "God" sending down magic, but the "magic" in us healing us through us exercising it, in whichever manner or form that takes, be that with God as the object of faith, or Love, or Life, or Spirit, or the Universe, or Others, or.... fill in the blank with whatever represents that Ultimate Good for you. The story represents how we are transformed through faith. It's far more symbolic than being some 'magic' or 'miracle' thing. The story isn't about that, but about faith in everyone.

The only thing really that's different is how we mentally think about these things, not the reality of faith itself, which takes many forms. That faith is that "reaching" beyond ourselves. And some minds will conceive of it in mythological symbols, such as beings in a spirit world handing out answers to prayers from above, or in other ways more compatible with science and reason where faith does not need to deny those things in order to be exercised in us.

Windwalker,

You have said something very strong in the lines above. Indeed, I do know that my prayer is true.

There is a writer, Martin Buber, who talked about the 'I and Thou' relationship. My prayer is of that nature, such that if it is heard, it will be heard. I do not have faith that it will be heard, but I have faith that it is true.

P.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Both atheists and agnostics can pray if they want, no one's stopping them. Bit of a waste of effort though if you don't believe.

"Bit of a waste of effort though if you don't believe."

Believe or don't believe; still a waste of effort.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

P.

Most believers seem to just make up the rules as they go, based on nothing but personal whim, so I think you are in the clear to do whatever you want. As long as you are not eating babies and stuff like that.

 

[Altfish]

"Bit of a waste of effort though if you don't believe."

Believe or don't believe; still a waste of effort.

True

 

[Liu]

I'm an agnostic and nevertheless I really like praying.

But I have concepts of the divine on which I focus while praying, so I seem to be in a slightly different position regarding that.

Also, prayer for me is often not about asking for something to happen, at least that's not the main point of it.

It's more about expressing my devotion and love towards my deity, independent of whether this deity exists as an actual external being or in whatever other fashion.

I find it difficult to imagine for a complete atheist to pray in any serious way. There are atheistic pagans and atheistic satanists, though, in which cases they believe in "deities" as symbols for aspects of reality or parts of the mind or subconscious. Those parts certainly exist, and can therefore be used as focal points for the prayer even if one doesn't believe in literal deities of them.

 

[Windwalker]

As an agnostic, I don't feel that I 'choose' any object or focus of prayer. Its more like a radio telescope, beaming a message to wherever there may be a receiver of any nature. However, like the operator of the radio telescope, I would hope for the message to be understood, which does imply characteristics that I would want.

This makes perfect sense to me. I think my other post I made about "your faith has made you whole" can kind of touch of this. What you are doing is taking what wells up within you and focusing it outward, into the universe with good will and intention, even if you don't know what that "God" or "Power" looks like. You're simply supplying an object of that "largeness" that you feel and giving it symbolic release. It's that "releasing" that is that exercising of faith.

There are lots of ways to do that sort of releasing on that level. This is exactly what meditation does, and it may or may not include a God figure. There may specific deity figures one focuses on in meditation. There may be a general sense of higher power. Or there may be no God at all. But all the activities are 'releasing' that infinite wellspring within us. It's all self-emptying. And when we self-empty, we can then be filled.

Indeed, I would be disingenuous to deny that my prayer courts empathy, in the way that I feel empathy for others and myself.

Absolutely. As you exercise that in yourself, you come to know it as yourself. I'm not sure if you read this quote from the other post I linked to, but I'll share it here as it really captures what is happening in this sort of directed prayer that you as agnostic could hopefully respect:

"But this is not God as an ontological other, set apart from the cosmos, from humans, and from creation at large. Rather, it is God as an archetypal summit of one's own Consciousness. ... By visualizing that identification 'we actually do become the deity. The subject is identified with the object of faith. The worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, those three are not separate'. At its peak, the soul becomes one, literally one, with the deity-form, with the dhyani-buddha, with (choose whatever term one prefers) God. One dissolves into Deity, as Deity - that Deity which, from the beginning, has been one's own Self or highest Archetype."

~Ken Wilber, Eye to Eye, pg. 85​

I realize something this can sound a little heady, but there is real substance to this. I think it may help you to realize that as you pray to "out there", or "up there" to whatever that is you hold forward in your mind you are directing this within you, that you are not at the end of the day actually separate from that! I love how he says in there, "The worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, those three are not separate."

This may be a little hard for people who are conditioned to think of God as a wholly external entity of sorts, but in reality this is what happens, and why you feel a transformation happen within you as you pray like this. "Your faith has made you whole". It's all connected, and as you exercise that in you, you bring those three, the worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, all together. You become that Love in the world.

This is exciting stuff to me!

I'm not convinced that an atheist would be doing the same thing as me if they 'pray' but that analysis is above my theological pay scale.

Zen Buddhism gets to that same place without using God as part of their meditation. It's not the object of faith that does the work, but the exercising of faith in however that is focused. Don't confuse faith with "beliefs".

 

[Windwalker]

There is a writer, Martin Buber, who talked about the 'I and Thou' relationship.

Oh yes, I'm familiar with that. This is that "Spirit in 2nd person" approach I touched on in that other thread.

My prayer is of that nature, such that if it is heard, it will be heard. I do not have faith that it will be heard, but I have faith that it is true.

Wow, that's beautiful. "I have faith that is true". And I think that's the thing. You're touching on something powerful here. I'm not going to explore unpacking that here at the moment, but this has given me some other deeper thoughts I'd love to explore later. I have to go focus on some mundane crap, like work right now.

 

[BSM1]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

P.

At least the Aggie has a 50/50 chance of winning.

 

[Quintessence]

A few follow-up questions for our OP -

• When you talk about "prayer," what do you mean? What do you believe prayer is? I ask because prayer (if it is called by that term) serves many different functions in different religious traditions. Included amongst those religious traditions are non-theistic ones.
• You talk about a "listener" in your breakdown of three options. What is this listener? Who or what is listening? Is a listener really necessary?

I ask these questions because the practices of my religion seem to contradict some of the assumptions in the OP. I don't use the word "prayer" in my tradition, really, but if by "prayer" we loosely mean "speaking to or communicating to the gods" that is something that is part of my path. However, I would not call the gods "listeners" given the gods I worship by and large do not speak nor understand English.

In other words, while the OP states "A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener" that's not how and why it works for me. I do not pray because I believe there is a listener. I don't, in fact, believe I am being listened to at all. I speak to the gods to sing of their glories and to honor them and respect them. It's a gesture of gratitude and thankfulness.

Thus, it stands to reason that if a theist like myself can pray to gods that don't listen as a way of giving thanks, so can an atheist and so can an agnostic.