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Can an Atheist be a UU?

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
And I remind you again that this is a DIR. It's not the place for debate, and CERTAINLY not the place for bashing.

To elaborate for the new folks, this section of the forum is for discussion about and among UUs. Each belief system has its own section called a DIR. Debates are held in another section of the forum. I did publicly invite Adam Lee here to address the concerns many of us have with his articles and I imagine that is how you found us. If you would like to debate the issue of Atheism and the UU Church I invite you to start a thread in the Religious Debate section, I have no doubts that it will be a lively discussion.
 

flies

New Member
1) I didn't "attack" you.
You wrote, "every example you've given has been twisted in your 'translations.'" This is not an attack against me, personally, but it is an attack on my ideas. Without an explanation of why you disagree with me, it's hard for me to see your remarks as anything other than a rude dismissal.
3) You realize debating in this area is forbidden?
I was not the one who opened this topic up for discussion.

Thank you for demonstrating my point.
what point would that be? How did I demonstrate it?

Which one?
I was referring to the second quote, which begins "Looking at the religious aspects...", but the first, shorter quotation would also work.

No, he isn't.
Please explain why you think so. I have made an honest attempt to explain my views, and I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same.

And I remind you again that this is a DIR. It's not the place for debate, and CERTAINLY not the place for bashing.
"bashing" meaning what? I don't understand the point of discussing an article if only one point of view is permissible.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Flies, go read the rules, 10 in particular. Then start a response thread if you're so inclined.
 

flies

New Member
Obviously I'm new around here, and I am not familiar with the etiquette. I will keep the rules in mind in the future.

Trey invited response from Adam, so I took it that he was interested in the atheist response to what's written here in this thread. Apparently, he forgot to warn us that the thread he linked to was not the place for us to voice those opinions.

I remain baffled as to why you would call me out for misinterpreting Buehrens or UU doctrine without explaining where I'm going wrong. Now you're telling me to shut up and shove off (edit: this bit is due to ruffled feathers. That's not really what you're doing. I stand by the rest of this post.) when I merely ask you to explain yourself. If the forum rules demand such rudeness as you have displayed to me, they ought to change.
 
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Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
You're asking me to debate, which is not permitted in a DIR. In fact, unless you're UU yourself, you're not supposed to be voicing opinions at all. I am not being rude, *I* am abiding by the rules.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
10. Discuss Individual Religions Forums
The DIR forums are for the express use for discussion by that specific group. They are not to be used for debate by anyone. People of other groups or faiths may post respectful questions to increase their understanding. Questions of a rhetorical or argumentative nature or that counter the beliefs of that DIR are not permitted. Only posts that comply with the tenets or spirit of that DIR are permitted. DIR areas are not to be used as cover to bash others outside the faith. The DIR forums are strictly moderated and posts are subject to editing or removal.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
If the forum rules demand such rudeness as you have displayed to me, they ought to change.

Now flies, I don't think anyone is being rude, we all have to follow the rules and they have helped to keep the forums a very civil area. Some might consider it over moderated but most of us do not. There is a place for debates and trust me, you will get plenty of participation so please, create a thread and let the debate begin.
 

bicker

Unitarian Universalist
And I remind you again that this is a DIR. It's not the place for debate, and CERTAINLY not the place for bashing.
To be clear, this is not a place for bashing, especially with regard to, Unitarian Universalism. It is a valid place for UUs to discuss their viewpoints regarding their religious faith. Such discussions may not necessarily be consistent with each other. I wouldn't necessarily call that "debate" though.
 

HumanistUU

New Member
As stated before I am a UU of several years. I've given 10's of thousands of dollars to my congregation, many hundreds of hours (thousands?) of volunteering. Do I qualify to post here, or does my being an atheist mean I have to find a debate thread?

I don't see how "flies" comments above are twisting Buehrens meaning in what he wrote. And these words from the ending of Buehrens' reply to Lee:

"...We have plenty of room even for authentic, non-violent "atheists" or skeptics. But I will not allow those filled with murderous hatred of religion to get away with pretending that zealous atheism has not at times been a demonic pseudo-religion."

I guess you can just tell me I need to get better reading comprehension skills, but I don't think it is twisting those words to read them as very hostile. I'm an authentic, non-violent atheist, so I guess he is supposedly leaving me out of the class of people he is accusing. But I'm also zealous, so I'm not sure I get to qualify as one of the "house-atheists".
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
As stated before I am a UU of several years. I've given 10's of thousands of dollars to my congregation, many hundreds of hours (thousands?) of volunteering. Do I qualify to post here, or does my being an atheist mean I have to find a debate thread?
*puts on mod hat*
UUs and ONLY UUs may post their opinions in the UU DIR... just as Muslims and only Muslims may post theirs in the Islam DIR; Christians in the Christian DIR, and so on.

Members unaffiliated with a given DIR's stated religion are limited to respectful questions aimed at improving understanding.

NO ONE, regardless of membership in a given DIR, may debate in said areas.

If this is unclear, start a thread in Site Feedback, and the staff will HAPPILY clarify for you.
*takes off mod hat*

You and flies seem to be taking adherence to the rules for anti-atheist hostility. I'm not sure why.

I don't see how "flies" comments above are twisting Buehrens meaning in what he wrote.
No? Taking phrases - not even sentences! - out of context to support one's preconceived notions isn't twisting in your book?

And these words from the ending of Buehrens' reply to Lee:
...We have plenty of room even for authentic, non-violent "atheists" or skeptics. But I will not allow those filled with murderous hatred of religion to get away with pretending that zealous atheism has not at times been a demonic pseudo-religion
formatting altered by Storm
OK, I hadn't seen that quote. It's certainly heated, but without the context, I'm not sure that I would call it hostile. Do you have that context, and if so, would you mind posting it?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Mod hat addendum:

If anyone (UU or not) wishes to debate any point raised in this thread, you are required to start a response thread in an appropriate area of the forum.
 

HumanistUU

New Member
The context of the quote is available in the link at #5 comment, which was Buehrens' response to the questions or request for clarification raised in the blog post which began this thread.

In comment #5 Trey of Diamonds writes:

I thought the letter, while maybe blunt, was fairly reasonable. Am I wrong? Since I'm not an atheist I might have missed something.

So it is now odd that since atheists are pointing out, yes he was wrong. And is failing to read the contents, context and all, from the perspective of someone who is an atheist and a UU.

So unless this was supposed to be thread to pile on with comments like 'yeah, those atheist UUs sure are thin skinned', then the whole thread is probably misclassified. But I don't understand how the thread and opening comments are appropriate for this forum, but the viewpoints of atheist UUs are not. UUs are allowed to disagree and try to persuade, etc. It is a fundamental part of the religion.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
So unless this was supposed to be thread to pile on with comments like 'yeah, those atheist UUs sure are thin skinned', then the whole thread is probably misclassified. But I don't understand how the thread and opening comments are appropriate for this forum, but the viewpoints of atheist UUs are not. UUs are allowed to disagree and try to persuade, etc. It is a fundamental part of the religion.

*sigh* Ok, I'll solve the issue by creating a thread in the debate section and I'll post a link to it here.

More to come...
 

applewuud

Active Member
....This mean-spirited slur, similar to other caustic language we've heard from Buehrens, implies that atheists can never make meaningful contributions to any social reform effort. This is obviously false and historically ignorant: as I've mentioned before, American freethinkers have played a major part in the abolitionist movement, the battle for civil rights, the feminist movement - Margaret Sanger's motto, after all, was "No Gods, No Masters" - and many more.....

Buehrens isn't saying atheists can never make meaningful contributions to social reform in America, or play a major part. Historically, they/we did. But also historically, social reform made its greatest strides when religious impulses weren't excluded from the discussion. The Progressive era in America was largely started by nonconformists, but it took off and made its greatest strides when books like Social Christianity made the case for taxing the rich on theological grounds. Civil rights were championed by humanists from the turn of the century onward, but when their ideas were joined with the thinking of Dr. Martin Luther King, that's when things really changed.

I think that's what Buehrens was trying to say, and probably what the book he's reviewing is talking about. (Anyone read THAT?)

BTW, the Unitarians have been nurturing to non-theists for a LOT longer than a few decades. What's happening in the last decade is a trend back to being accepting of "the language of reverence" and the development of a different kind of theism, instead of dismissing all possibility of that as "backsliding into superstition". There's a difference between accepting atheism as a valid life path and being anti-theistic, being a church that criticizes anyone with "supernatural" ideas.
 
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