Can an ethical life be lived without reference to the supernatural?

[Kenny]

Very good! And perhaps what is ethical may vary from situation to situation, as well. Consider flooded downtown New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. What if a man is stranded with his daughter, who has serious diabetes, and desperately needs insulin. The drug store owner, being better off, has closed up and escaped. There's nobody around to help. What should he consider himself, in this situation, justified in doing? Notice I didn't say "ethical" in doing, merely justified.

Absolutely, and then again, we can add to the story. If Katrina was an obvious flood and the drug store owner, being wiser, knew that there will probably be no drug store to help anyway and thought of saving his family vs the man who had the daughter and didn't consider the daughter and the reality of the storm making no provision for her diabetes, was he justified in being stranded with the need of insulin? Was he justified in not getting a greyhound or moving to a more secure location provided by the government?

I can't answer for God, obviously, and neither can you, though our reasons are radically different. But as always, I contend that if there were a deity such as you seem to propose, there is no reason that any of us should not know what that deity needs us to know. Again, notice that doesn't interfere with "free will." Knowing, and deciding to act on that knowledge, are quite different things.

True. And perhaps He has. Then we have the free-will. Most likely God has told people not to commit murder... then again, if someone murders, is it because God didn't tell them? Or the problem of free will?

Then there is a deeper question, if we all understand and agree on ethics, who put that in man? Was it an evolution or was it a DNA put in by God Himself?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Absolutely, and then again, we can add to the story. If Katrina was an obvious flood and the drug store owner, being wiser, knew that there will probably be no drug store to help anyway and thought of saving his family vs the man who had the daughter and didn't consider the daughter and the reality of the storm making no provision for her diabetes, was he justified in being stranded with the need of insulin? Was he justified in not getting a greyhound or moving to a more secure location provided by the government?

I find it interesting how often you find a way to blame people, rather than to ever see them as victims -- even if it's only victims of their own lack of foresight.

What I notice, too, is that you didn't even answer the question asked (about what that man -- given the circumstance in which he found himself, for whatever reason), which is what might he now be justified in doing.

True. And perhaps He has. Then we have the free-will. Most likely God has told people not to commit murder... then again, if someone murders, is it because God didn't tell them? Or the problem of free will?

You are ducking my response to your own question!! Your question had to do with "Are there things that people may think is ethical but their God doesn't?"

So let me try to present a case that isn't quite as obvious as murder -- let's consider whether there are millions of humans who in all deep, sincere honesty believe that it is ethical to sell your daughter into sexual slavery to a man she doesn't love (and it was once billions, as arranged marriages, with varying degrees of coercion, were the norm around the world). In fact, there are families that murder or mutilate those daughters who attempt to choose for themselves. Now, do we know whether God thinks that daughters should have their husbands chosen for them, whether they are happy with the choice or not? Do you know for certain that God thinks that their happiness and ability to love the man that is going to have access to her body is not a consideration?

Then there is a deeper question, if we all understand and agree on ethics, who put that in man? Was it an evolution or was it a DNA put in by God Himself?

Your question (who put that in man), in and of itself, shows what you cannot imagine. The very use of a personal pronoun to account for a natural development in the evolution of our species shows that you can't really even think about that as a natural development. So unfortunately, that is not a "deeper" question at all. In fact, it's quite shallow, given what we know about human nature.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Now, I see that you were just playing around.

I doubt he's playing around. Christians will often use that verse to promote their idea we are all filthy, dirty cretins just because we were born and that no matter what were lowly worms.

 

[Kenny]

I find it interesting how often you find a way to blame people, rather than to ever see them as victims -- even if it's only victims of their own lack of foresight.

What I notice, too, is that you didn't even answer the question asked (about what that man -- given the circumstance in which he found himself, for whatever reason), which is what might he now be justified in doing.

I find it interesting how often you find a way to blame God instead of having people to own up to their responsibilities.

There are victims, but If they are victims of their own lack of foresight, it still wasn't God's fault... HOWEVER, we should help people even when they are guilty or not guilty.

Now... I take into account that you are an atheist and, in so many cases, demonstrated that you are anti-Christian. So I take that into account when you write something.

(Of course, you could take the other side of the coin and say that of me)

You are ducking my response to your own question!! Your question had to do with "Are there things that people may think is ethical but their God doesn't?"

To be honest... I really didn't see a good response. Just a story that supported your viewpoint. Did you have a question?

So let me try to present a case that isn't quite as obvious as murder -- let's consider whether there are millions of humans who in all deep, sincere honesty believe that it is ethical to sell your daughter into sexual slavery to a man she doesn't love (and it was once billions, as arranged marriages, with varying degrees of coercion, were the norm around the world). In fact, there are families that murder or mutilate those daughters who attempt to choose for themselves. Now, do we know whether God thinks that daughters should have their husbands chosen for them, whether they are happy with the choice or not? Do you know for certain that God thinks that their happiness and ability to love the man that is going to have access to her body is not a consideration?

As you said before, and I agree, there are things that we don't know because we are not all knowing.

What people do, doesn't necessarily mean God is in agreement with. And there are things that God permitted, even when He didn't agree or like it either. There are some things that, in a biblical perspective, we know that God wouldn't like. Like murder.

Your question (who put that in man), in and of itself, shows what you cannot imagine. The very use of a personal pronoun to account for a natural development in the evolution of our species shows that you can't really even think about that as a natural development. So unfortunately, that is not a "deeper" question at all. In fact, it's quite shallow, given what we know about human nature.

The other side of the coin is that it is apparent that you cannot imagine. The very use of a personal pronoun is because I have a personal God and not some made up being.

It is a deeper question.. and spoken by others:

 

[Revoltingest]

God just isn't needed, and it's abit worrisome that some people seem to think they would act immorality without. A proper sense of being pro-social, something nature almost nearly always just gives to us because we are social animals, is all you to be moral and should be all you need to understand that people will generally behave morally.

Also, we observe that one's religion doesn't always
limit their behavior to their own professed standards.
People are gonna be who they are, religious beliefs
not withstanding, eh.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Also, we observe that one's religion doesn't always
limit their behavior to their own professed standards.
People are gonna be who they are, religious beliefs
not withstanding, eh.

Yeah. You'd almost think it's too much to ask that people be judged on what they do, rather than who they say they are.

 

[Tumah]

I doubt he's playing around. Christians will often use that verse to promote their idea we are all filthy, dirty cretins just because we were born and that no matter what were lowly worms.

That would be ridiculous. The context is clearly the prophet voicing a confession and supplication on behalf of the nation for their sins after the destruction of the Temple. The beginning of the book of Isaiah was the prophet condemning the nation for their sins and and warning of the coming retribution. The end of the book is the repentance for those sins after the retribution. Why would anyone understand that verse to be a blanket statement about the human condition?

 

[Rival]

That would be ridiculous. The context is clearly the prophet voicing a confession and supplication on behalf of the nation for their sins after the destruction of the Temple. The beginning of the book of Isaiah was the prophet condemning the nation for their sins and and warning of the coming retribution. The end of the book is the repentance for those sins after the retribution. Why would anyone understand that verse to be a blanket statement about the human condition?

Expecting even 50% of Christians to have read the whole Book of Isaiah is giving them way too much credit. Many only know Isaiah 53 and Isaiah 7.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why would anyone understand that verse to be a blanket statement about the human condition?

It take awhile to explain the specifics, but in a nut shell Christians have twisted and distorted the Tanakh so much that in the understanding it became the "OT." For many of them, that includes taking bits from the aforementioned verse to focus on the "filthy rags" part to promote their idea that just being born makes one filthy, sinful, and guilty.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It may also help to know Christians specialize in wholesale promotion and distribution of shame and guilt.