Can Authenticity of Quran be proven?

[TagliatelliMonster]

All the earliest mosques face Petra, not Mecca. Something changed, and the Quran had to be changed to reflect it.

Maybe the architect that designed the first mosques was really bad at orienting himself and made the same mistake every time?

 

[Samael_Khan]

I know apparantly there are stories that there were several Qurans, and uthman burned them all, and kept only one. How do we know this story is not fabricated?

And therein lies the problem. There are only claims, no actual evidence.

 

[sooda]

Maybe the architect that designed the first mosques was really bad at orienting himself and made the same mistake every time?

That is an error.. They didn't face Petra .. They faced Jerusalem.

 

[Samael_Khan]

That is an error.. They didn't face Petra .. They faced Jerusalem.

Have you checked out the reasons why some people say that the muslims faced Petra?

Apparently it has to do with the early descriptions of the place they faced as resembling Petra rather than Jerusalem and it is claimed that Mecca only existes from 74AD onwards.

 

[sooda]

Have you checked out the reasons why some people say that the muslims faced Petra?

Apparently it has to do with the early descriptions of the place they faced as resembling Petra rather than Jerusalem and it is claimed that Mecca only existes from 74AD onwards.

Based on descriptions? Maybe they were referencing Ma'dain Saleh... Its the sister city to Petra and they look much alike.

Mecca wouldn't have been important until the 5-6th century AD so why is 74 AD an important date?

 

[Samael_Khan]

Based on descriptions? Maybe they were referencing Ma'dain Saleh... Its the sister city to Petra and they look much alike.

Just a correction: I meant 740 AD.

I listened to a couple of videos a while ago about it so I don't know the exact details. They also said that archaeology revealed that the qibla of the early mosques faced Petra. It is an interesting thing to look up since people really wanna get into the archaeological history of Islam, the same as they do with Biblical history. Unfortunately the Saudi government are destroying historical sites in their country and building over them because they want to prevent those places from being venerated.

 

[sooda]

Just a correction: I meant 740 AD.

I listened to a couple of videos a while ago about it so I don't know the exact details. They also said that archaeology revealed that the qibla of the early mosques faced Petra. It is an interesting thing to look up since people really wanna get into the archaeological history of Islam, the same as they do with Biblical history. Unfortunately the Saudi government are destroying historical sites in their country and building over them because they want to prevent those places from being venerated.

No, the SAG is NOT destroying archaelogical sites... although I have heard that tired lie from outsiders all my life. Over the decades as these sites were uncovered the SAG has fenced them to protect them.. In more recent years (past 30 years) they have restored them for the Saudi people.

Hegra Madain Saleh in Saudi Arabia | blueabaya.com ...
The Mysterious Ancient City of Hegra (Mada’in Saleh) in Saudi Arabiamadain-saleh-saudi-arabia.html
the history of madain saleh Historically, Hegra had a lucrative position in the desert with an underground water supply that permitted agriculture, which in turn made it one of several indispensable stops along the incense trade route from Yemen to the Levant.

 

[Audie]

Can Authenticity of the Quran be proven logically and scientifically? Can it be proved it is all what Muhammad had said, and it was written as Muhammmad had said, and remained unchanged? Or is this just a belief held by those who believe in the Quran?


Note: As a Bahai, I believe the Quran is Authentic and a revelation from God, because Bahai Scriptures confirms this.

However In our modern day, to prove authenticity of a document, it has to be signed by the Author, or the handwriting of author can be verified to match with the original script. None of these are available regarding the Quran (to the best of my knowledge) as there is no Quran in handwriting of Muhammad, nor, Muhammad ever signed or sealed a copy of Quran to confirm it.

Pick a quote that makes some definite statement on a
matter that is contradicted by science.

 

[Samael_Khan]

No, the SAG is NOT destroying archaelogical sites... although I have heard that tired lie from outsiders all my life. Over the decades as these sites were uncovered the SAG has fenced them to protect them.. In more recent years (past 30 years) they have restored them for the Saudi people.

Hegra Madain Saleh in Saudi Arabia | blueabaya.com ...
The Mysterious Ancient City of Hegra (Mada’in Saleh) in Saudi Arabiamadain-saleh-saudi-arabia.html
the history of madain saleh Historically, Hegra had a lucrative position in the desert with an underground water supply that permitted agriculture, which in turn made it one of several indispensable stops along the incense trade route from Yemen to the Levant.

Do you have a link where that proves that they aren't destroying the sites? I have heard the claim from both muslims and non muslims. Even looking up on google I found these claims:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sua...e..69i57j33.7859j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia

And thanks I will check out that link.

 

[sooda]

Do you have a link where that proves that they aren't destroying the sites? I have heard the claim from both muslims and non muslims. Even looking up on google I found these claims:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sua...e..69i57j33.7859j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia

And thanks I will check out that link.

They don't destroy historic sites.. They did have to take down a house that Muahmmed lived in to make room for the huge increase in Pillgrims to Mecca.

King Salman was minister of the interior and tourism when he was still just a prince. He's very proud of their historic preservation efforts and he should be.

The Al Nahda Society is also extremely supportive of historic preservation.

Even the Nestorian Christian graves in Tarout are preserved since they were found in the early 1950s.

There are lots of pinheads who yap about KSA because they can get away with it, but none of them have ever lived in Arabia nor even visited.

 

[Samael_Khan]

They don't destroy historic sites.. They did have to take down a house that Muahmmed lived in to make room for the huge increase in Pillgrims to Mecca.

King Salman was minister of the interior and tourism when he was still just a prince. He's very proud of their historic preservation efforts and he should be.

The Al Nahda Society is also extremely supportive of historic preservation.

Even the Nestorian Christian graves in Tarout are preserved since they were found in the early 1950s.

There are lots of pinheads who yap about KSA because they can get away with it, but none of them have ever lived in Arabia nor even visited.

Do you have any links to confirm what you are saying?

 

[sooda]

Do you have any links to confirm what you are saying?

Look it up yourself.. I don't much like being accused of lying.

 

[Augustus]

Actually, the authenticity of the Quran can be DISproven. All the earliest mosques face toward Petra rather than Mecca. At some point things changed and the manuscripts were altered.

This theory is far from a confirmed fact and has attracted minimal scholarly attention let alone support.

It relies on a completely unproven assumption that Early Muslims had a highly accurate means of calculating direction, which they quickly forgot about within a couple of decades, as we know that Muslims were praying in very approximate directions in the late 7th C, and that precision was not particularly important to them.

So:

Mid 7th C: Precision was important and possible
Late 7th C: Precision was unimportant and impossible

Jacob of Edessa, (late 7th C), note the cardinal directions:

Your question is vain... for it is not to the south that the Jews pray, nor either do the Muslims (mhaggriiye). The Jews who live in Egypt, and also the Muslims there, as I saw with my own eyes and will now set out for you, prayed to the east, and still do, both peoples-the Jews towards Jerusalem and the Muslims towards the Ka'ba. And those Jews who are to the south of Jerusalem pray to the north; and those in the land of Babel, in J:Iira and in Ba~ra, pray to the west. And also the Muslims who are there pray to the west, towards the Ka'ba; and those who are to the south of the Ka'ba pray to the north, towards that place. So from all this that has been said, it is clear that it is not to the south that the Jews and Muslims here in the regions of Syria pray, but towards Jerusalem or the Ka'ba, the patriarchal places of their races.

Also given that factionalism was already rife in the Muslim world, pulling off an 8th C Switcheroo and getting everyone to quietly acquiesce to it would have been no mean feat.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Look it up yourself.. I don't much like being accused of lying.

I did look it up myself. I even gave you those links. They contradict what you are saying. Therefore clearly a supportive link for your claim is difficult to find so I was hoping that you could present me with one since you usually provide me with links when we are discussing a subject.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Did Muslims pray towards Jerusalem - Answers
Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's QuestionsMuslims_pray_towards_Jerusalem
Sep 20, 2010 · Yes, when prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was in Mecca (Makkah), He and all Muslims were praying towards direction of Al-Qods (Jerusalem). After immigration to al-Madinah (Medina) he was ordered, and all Muslims, by God (Allah in Arabic) to pray facing direction of Kaaba, or Mecca, or Saudi Arabia (depending where you are.

Thank you.

 

[sooda]

This theory is far from a confirmed fact and has attracted minimal scholarly attention let alone support.

It relies on a completely unproven assumption that Early Muslims had a highly accurate means of calculating direction, which they quickly forgot about within a couple of decades, as we know that Muslims were praying in very approximate directions in the late 7th C, and that precision was not particularly important to them.

So:

Mid 7th C: Precision was important and possible
Late 7th C: Precision was unimportant and impossible

Jacob of Edessa, (late 7th C), note the cardinal directions:

Your question is vain... for it is not to the south that the Jews pray, nor either do the Muslims (mhaggriiye). The Jews who live in Egypt, and also the Muslims there, as I saw with my own eyes and will now set out for you, prayed to the east, and still do, both peoples-the Jews towards Jerusalem and the Muslims towards the Ka'ba. And those Jews who are to the south of Jerusalem pray to the north; and those in the land of Babel, in J:Iira and in Ba~ra, pray to the west. And also the Muslims who are there pray to the west, towards the Ka'ba; and those who are to the south of the Ka'ba pray to the north, towards that place. So from all this that has been said, it is clear that it is not to the south that the Jews and Muslims here in the regions of Syria pray, but towards Jerusalem or the Ka'ba, the patriarchal places of their races.

Also given that factionalism was already rife in the Muslim world, pulling off an 8th C Switcheroo and getting everyone to quietly acquiesce to it would have been no mean feat.

Arabs were very much in demand as navigators.. even during the exploration of the new world. They didn't "forget".. They used a Kamal to navigate Latitude from about the 10th century AD.

 

[sooda]

I did look it up myself. I even gave you those links. They contradict what you are saying. Therefore clearly a supportive link for your claim is difficult to find so I was hoping that you could present me with one since you usually provide me with links when we are discussing a subject.

LOL.. You have never set foot in Arabia like most of the pundits.

1. Top 10 Historic Places In Saudi Arabia You Must Visit
   https://expatbio.com/historic-places-in-saudi-arabia
   Dec 17, 2019 · These historic places in Saudi Arabia do get merit attention from the tourist, because of the fascinating and unique appeals that it offers to the eye. Here Is the Look at the Top 10 Historic Places in Saudi Arabia. 1.Al-Hijr
   
   
2. Historic Sites in Saudi Arabia - Trip Historic
   https://www.triphistoric.com/explore/articles/historic-sites-in-saudi-arabia
   There's a host of top Historic Sites in Saudi Arabia to visit and among the very best are the al-Haram Mosque and Fort Al Faqir. Our database of Historic Sites in Saudi Arabia is growing all the time, but we may not cover them all. So, if you know of other Saudi Arabian cultural places…
   
   
3. List of World Heritage Sites in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Saudi_Arabia
   The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) World Heritage Convention that was established in 1972, is concerning with the protection and preservation of cultural or natural heritage. There are 5 UNESCO World Heritage Sites in …
   

 

[firedragon]

Can Authenticity of the Quran be proven logically and scientifically? Can it be proved it is all what Muhammad had said, and it was written as Muhammmad had said, and remained unchanged? Or is this just a belief held by those who believe in the Quran?


Note: As a Bahai, I believe the Quran is Authentic and a revelation from God, because Bahai Scriptures confirms this.

However In our modern day, to prove authenticity of a document, it has to be signed by the Author, or the handwriting of author can be verified to match with the original script. None of these are available regarding the Quran (to the best of my knowledge) as there is no Quran in handwriting of Muhammad, nor, Muhammad ever signed or sealed a copy of Quran to confirm it.

Well put brother. Well put.

Please clarify which one goes along with your position.
1. You are 100% sure there is no Quran handwritten by Muhammed in existence.
2. You are 100% sure there is no Quran ever handwritten by Muhammed. Basically Muhammed never wrote a book called Quran. Maybe he narrated it.
3. He may have written a Quran by his own hand but evidence has not surfaced to prove this way or that way.

Please tell me which one is your position or if you have another position i havent thought of.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

All the earliest mosques face Petra, not Mecca. Something changed, and the Quran had to be changed to reflect it.

What does the Quran have to do with petra or mecca? Both of these words dont exist in the Quran. So your whole thesis that because of a city and its direction or two an ancient book that doesnt mention those is either because you think there is a correlation because someone told you or maybe you have some evidence to help you.

 

[firedragon]

I know apparantly there are stories that there were several Qurans, and uthman burned them all, and kept only one. How do we know this story is not fabricated?

Keeping aside that this story is found centuries after the time of the Quran or Muhammed, you dont seem to have actually read this hadith. You should just to get a better idea of what the story says, and that should be done way before even analysing if the story is correct and is valid. Hope you understand.