Can drugs and/or alcohol lead us to greater spirituality?

[Sunstone]

Can drugs and/or alcohol lead us to greater sprirituality? If so, under what circumstances can they do this? If not, do they actually decrease our spirituality or are they neutral? What do you think?

 

[robtex]

I had a friend in college whom was Catholic and 1/2 mexican. He had relatives who were Christians in mexico and every few years he would go down to see them. They lived pretty deep in Mexico --not near the border but I am not sure of the exact location. He went down there while we were in school and they had a religious ceremony going on and my roommie partipated. They went up to the hils for days hiking and set-up camp. They had mushrooms and each person was suppose to go into a differnt part of a cave they had found and spend the night while using mushrooms. Than they all talked about their "visions" the next day.

My friend went into his section after doing his drugs and layed down to see his "vision". In his vision he says he spoke to Jesus Christ who came into the cave sat down and talked to him. When he came back he told me that he knew it was the drugs talking but it was such a real experience to him. The locals apparently did this infrequently to connect with God.

 

[fromthe heart]

Can drugs and/or alcohol lead us to greater sprirituality? If so, under what circumstances can they do this? If not, do they actually decrease our spirituality or are they neutral? What do you think?

To me these things can enhance who you really are inside...but to say they can enhance spirituality..well never got into that because it always seemed wrong to do so for me. I know if you fast long enough it will clear your mind and you can feel a greater depth of what you are made of inside. It seems fasting in the Bible lead to truths not known but I never heard that wine did.

 

[TheTrendyCynic]

At the heart of any drug experience (especially psychadelics like mushroom, peyote and LSD) is an altered mental state. It is hard to describe this altered mental state as better or worse than normal, as even characteristics that are traditionally thought to be impeded by drug use (mental clarity, for example) can actually be enhanced. Certainly, though, conscious mental control is loosened, but when considering the divine a loss of control may in fact be a benefit.

I'm a casual user of mushrooms and LSD and, while an atheist, I can certainly understand how these substances would allow someone greater freedom to explore concepts and ideas that would otherwise be outside the range of everyday thought. It's just important to write down what you've conceived as it happens and study it the morning after, when your enhanced mental control will better allow you to apply logic to what you 'discovered' and sift the nonsensical from the inspired.

While many might frown on drug use for various reasons, both secular and religious, it is important to recognize that, like everything else in the world, they are not black and white. I see the experience of the occasional altered head space to far outweigh the minimal dangers of responsible use, and think my life is richer for them.

 

[Druidus]

Salvia Divinorum

Sound Tribe’s rhythmic mantras distributed themselves evenly throughout my space like smoke and transcended all previously adopted auditory boundaries; it was nearing one o’clock in the morning and it was the second journey my mind had made into the expanses of Salvia divinorum’s undefinable halls of enlightenment. The room was completely dark save for a half string of Christmas lights that adorned the wall above a dark computer desk; the only sounds were the melodic ones of Sector 9, and there had been candles lit, but decidedly blown out due to the fact that I was unsure of myself and whether or not I could handle fire in my soon-to-come altered state. The sage was packed into the bowl of a small bong.

I sparked the bowl with a butane lighter and by the time I has exhaled it I had begun to feel its influence. My mind spun around itself as I floated in and out of sobriety, feeling the strong sense of euphoria often associated with marijuana. By the second or third hit, I had felt completely absorbed into a new fabrication of consciousness; I felt as the Prince Siddhartha must of felt while sitting under the legendary Bodhi tree, pearls of enlightenment descending into his very being from every aspect of life. There was a powerful energy which surrounded me, and I felt as though I was being taught; I felt as though I was being guided into and surrounded by a divine wisdom. So far, however, none of these apparitions were hallucinogenic in nature.

By the third or fourth or fifth hit (I began to lose count), I had reached a position in consciousness far beyond myself. My mind and soul and body were three different entities existing in harmony within the same boundary of my soma. I was filled with a great peace and feeling of euphoria and calmness. With closed eyes, I was able to imagine vivid images of an idyllic blue sky, in which expanses of soft, white clouds were floating. I was laying on my left side, in my bed at this time, and though I am certain I was laying on a completely level plane, I began to experience a feeling as though my center of gravity had decidedly removed itself from my body and was now hovering in the space to my right side. I felt as though my bed had rotated into the air, with a steep downgrade; following, I began to convincingly feel as though I was rolling off the surface and felt as though I was about to fall to the floor; I had to physically hold the sheets in order to keep from ending up on the ground. Despite the terror this may have imposed upon some people, it was not at all an unpleasant feeling. I had a sitter present, and when I opened my eyes from these images, looking toward him, my visions were as follows:

His hand, which was holding the bong, began to glow with a white-blue color (much like that of a blue flame) but it radiated a cold energy, much like ice would in a spiritual world. His fingers began to appear thicker than natural, as the icy color spread from his fingertips to his wrist. Following, a violently pink hue outlined his hand and a second outer color of a deeper, darker blue, surrounded that. Both of these colors spread outward in a crystalline manner so that they somewhat resembled ice and somewhat resembled the fur of an animal. His entire hand was now glowing, all three colors, with a radiant light that echoed warmth and coldness, strength and submission.

This tri-color pattern soon spread up his arm and onto his face, until his entire essence was no longer his own and he had transformed into a creature of immense understanding, power, and wisdom. The mouth and nasal area of his face were the last to change, but as they did they elongated together until they reached the shape of an animal’s muzzle. Shapes similar to ears adorned the crown of his head and he was surrounded with the same pink and blue aura as previously stated. I recognized this new being as existing in the form of a Great White Bear, whose nature was both eternal and instant, who was filled with both great knowledge and a desire to learn; he was one with whom I could relate and yet was one so consecrated and greatly beyond my scope that I would always strive to reach his divinity; he radiated truth, enlightenment, peace, suffering, wisdom, eternity, impermanence, and perfection. He was the summation of all the great powers of the universe and in his was harnessed all truths which have existed since the dawn of the age of time.

Then these thoughts appeared in my head; I do not remember thinking them nor did the Great White Bear speak these things to me. Rather, I believe he taught me these things through silence and meditation because that is the communication of the divine. It seems apparent that telepathic communications, or Crystal Monkeys, are quite common in Salvia use. He said that there is a path that we all must travel upon and that this path is surrounded on all sides by a great mass of existence - an infinite oblivion of eternity. He taught that we must all tread on this path which is as weak as dust, but it is held together and secured in the consciousness by our faith and search for knowledge and enlightenment; if we fail to yearn for either of these three things, our path crumbles to dust piece by piece until we are no longer able to tread upon it because the weight of our imperfections it cannot hold. Once we fall from this path, we must once again traverse it from its origin.

He said that there is a Gate at the end of this long road, and behind it there exists an eternal reward which awaits those who reach it. It is also known that one must travel this path by experience and learning, for those are the ways to move forward. owever, before he could deliver his further teachings, I was disconnected from his aura and lost from his vision.

The remainder of the experience, which lasted until only about 1:45 am, was spent experiencing pleasant euphoria and extreme cotton mouth and tiredness. In the morning I awoke with a slight headache, presumably from the dehydration; I remembered none of my dreams or anything that may have happened between my visions and my descent into sleep. However, the essence of the Great White Bear has left an influence with me that I shall never erase from my mind; Salvia has brought me to a deeper understanding of conscious existence and yet only given me cause to attain a profound definition of enlightenment.

'There is no burning for him who has completed the journey, who is free of sorrows and all else, and who has broken off all chains.'
-The Dhammapada

 

[t3gah]

Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison both believed that drugs and alcohol could lead them to a new plain of existence. In both of their cases they were right because now they are decaying in graves.

Didn't Janis Joplin also try the high way?

 

[kreeden]

Many cultures { including Christian at times } have used drugs as a means to farther Spiritual awareness . Our word assassin comes from such a group { Muslem in this case } . I believe that drugs can be a tool to open one's mind , but at the same time I believe that they aren't really needed , nor would I " trust " the experience myself .

I have a Belgium friend who was honoured to have been able to take part in the Blue Deer Ritual of the HuichoL People . She says that it was an experience that she will never forget , but that she has no desire to take peyote again , nor would she had without the guidance of a Shaman .

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

Drugs and alcohol don't altar the state of mind per se, simply speed up, or slow down the way certain parts of the brain function. Drugs can create their own visions by stimulation certain parts of the brain, but how could this in any way be some kind of message from a god? I don't think drugs or alcohol can enhance spirituality, simply delude the mind.

 

[TheTrendyCynic]

Drugs and alcohol don't altar the state of mind per se, simply speed up, or slow down the way certain parts of the brain function.

This is a misleading statement; even if it is true, every possible definition of 'altered state' could likely be explained by a drug influencing the speed at which different parts of the brain function.

From my own experiences, I assure you that every possible definition of 'altered state' is fully possible under the influence of powerful hallucinogens/psychadelics like LSD, mushrooms, ketamine, peyote, salvia and others. It's impossible to describe the experience; sense transferrence ('seeing' sounds, 'hearing' colors, 'smelling' people touch you, etc), subliminal hypersensitivity (reading body language or consciously ignoring obvious cues, giving rise to illusions of mind reading and deep bonding) and ego death (seeing yourself with cold clarity, with protective masks/denials stripped away). A complete loss of logical rationality fills in the gaps, combining visual/auditory/tactile hallucinations with an infinite capacity to make illogical connections that seem perfectly sound at the time: "I have money in my wallet... money is the root of all evil... trees have roots... money in the ground will make an evil tree... the trees are evil... Ahhhhhh! Must pick all the money off the ground or the trees will eat me!"

Trust me. Boiling down an acid trip to 'simply speeding up parts of the brain' is like describing a nuclear holocaust as 'simply chucking some plutonium out of a plane.'

Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison both believed that drugs and alcohol could lead them to a new plain of existence. In both of their cases they were right because now they are decaying in graves.

Didn't Janis Joplin also try the high way?

It's a clinical fact that alcohol is more physiologically dangerous, neurotoxic and addictive than many illegal drugs, including marijuana, mushrooms, LSD, ketamine and salvia. People under the influence of marijuana experience increased awareness and paranoid hypercautiousness, as opposed to the aggression and invincibility one experiences when drunk (often leading people to drive against their better judgment). You included alcohol in your condemnation, so perhaps you're aware of these things, but I find that so few people are. It's an absolutely unforgivable sin in our society that drunk drivers are slapped on the wrist only to kill again while harmless marijuana offenders lose scholarships or rot in prison -- and I challenge you to find the reason why. There isn't one.

 

[Druidus]

TrendyCynic, you are awesome! Of course alcohol is far more dangerous than marijuana. Marijuana actually even increases IQ points by a small amount, if used properly (according to one university). It is quite sad that we have such injustices in our society. Concensual/Victimless "crimes" should not be considered crimes.

By the way, I love your sig!

 

[Lightkeeper]

AA, National Council of Alcholism, Naranon would say that alcohol and drugs are an impediment to spirituality. They also state that a person using drugs and alcohol thinks they are God. I have lived with both drug and alcohol users and also marijuana users and have noticed a great lack of spirituality and ability to deal with life. Staying sober is the best high.

 

[TheTrendyCynic]

Marijuana actually even increases IQ points by a small amount, if used properly (according to one university).

The Green University of British Columbia, perhaps? This strikes me as extremely unlikely; could you post a source for this information? I'd be interested in reading more.

Concensual/Victimless "crimes" should not be considered crimes.

I completely agree; moreover, I do not recognize the right of a government to enforce punishment for victimless crimes. Just as it is moral to lie to a criminal when he asks you where you keep your money, it would be moral for me to resort to deceit to protect my right to whatever I wish to put into my body.

AA, National Council of Alcholism, Naranon would say that alcohol and drugs are an impediment to spirituality.

Look at your sources -- that's kind of like referring to High Times as a source defending the use of marijuana as being good for you. Those organizations are certainly biased against drug and alcohol use, calling into question any assertions they'd make in support of that angle.

I have lived with both drug and alcohol users and also marijuana users and have noticed a great lack of spirituality and ability to deal with life. Staying sober is the best high.

Using drugs is not without cost, obviously. Any benefits gleaned from drug use (and you are being intellectually dishonest if you make a blanket assertion that there aren't any) will also come with negative side effects. The choice that one should be offered is whether or not they believe the benefits outweigh the negatives. Those who use psychadelic experiences to attain transcendant states of consciousness for religious purposes, those who use the ego-death of mushrooms or acid to self-analyze and those who use substances to open their minds to ponder the unponderable would be among those who could honestly answer yes to that choice -- in those cases, I would argue that use of illicit substances benefits the lives of those people, and they have a right to use those substances.

But it is important to be aware of the downsides. Marijuana use, as an example, causes almost all of the problems associated with tobacco smoking (though it is safer -- it is not physically addictive, it is a brachiodilator (opens your lungs) instead of a brachioconstrictor (closes your lungs, like tobacco), and users tend to smoke less than cigarette smokers). It also has a detrimental affect on your mind; regular use causes a 'fog' of sorts to build up, dulling your thoughts and robbing you of motivation. This effect is gradual, and it's responsible for the "burnt-out stoner" stereotype. Stopping marijuana use remedies this effect; there is no evidence of permanent damage caused by prolonged marijuana use. Marijuana is psychologically addictive, and the power of psychological addiction is something people tend to underestimate.

Unfortunately, too few people are made aware of the truth behind drug use. The government considers fair treatment of the subject to be anathema; being honest would necessarily weaken their stance, and they cannot allow any quarter to be given in the laughably ineffective War on Drugs. The consequence of this is a failure of knowledge: People are not armed to make smart decisions, and that is never good. In some cases, government fanaticism can awaken the opposite belief in the minds of intelligent youngsters disillusioned with the government's tactics, yet ignorant of the true problems associated with drug use. "If," they think, "the government is clearly biased against drug use, I can't trust what they say. Everything negative I've heard about drugs has been from the government, or from government-sponsored programs, or from parents and teachers just repeating what the government has said... so why should I trust any of them? Why should I trust any of their warnings?"

I'm sure you can imagine the problems associated with such reasoning.

 

[Druidus]

The Green University of British Columbia, perhaps? This strikes me as extremely unlikely; could you post a source for this information? I'd be interested in reading more.

Heavy Pot Use Lowers IQ By Jennifer Warner
WebMD Feature Reviewed By Gary Vogin, MD

April 2, 2002 -- Smoking five or more marijuana joints a week can make you feel stupid -- really. A new study shows heavy marijuana use can actually lower your IQ (intelligence quotient).
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Researchers say it's one of the first studies to look at the long-term effects of marijuana on intelligence. Although the immediate, mind-numbing effects of marijuana are well known, it's been difficult to study the long-term effects on users because researchers often don't have a starting point before marijuana use began on which to base their measurements.
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In this study, which appears in the April 2 issue of the Canadian Medical Association Journal, researchers compared the IQ scores of 70 participants before they started smoking pot (aged 9-12) with their current scores at age 17-20. Among heavy users who currently smoked more than five joints a week, IQ scores dropped by an average of 4.1 points.
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Researchers say that drop might seem minor, but it's about the same degree of IQ reduction found among children who were exposed to an average of three drinks a day in the womb. And it's more than the decline found in children exposed to cocaine in the womb or to low levels of lead as infants.
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But among light users (fewer than five joints a week), researchers found gains in IQ scores of about 5.8 points. Former users and non-users also had slight increases in their scores -- of 3.5 and 2.6, respectively.
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The study authors say these finding have several limitations and should be interpreted with caution. The size of the study was small and did not look at the length of marijuana use. The young age of the participants may have also tempered some of the potential long-term effects of the drug.
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Researchers say that marijuana has grown in popularity among youth in the last four years, so more study is needed to fully understand the consequences of both current and previous marijuana use.
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http://my.webmd.com/content/article/18/1685_53047

It was Carleton University, Canada's Capitol University.

It might not seem like much, but if you had an IQ of 124.2 (Not far out of the normal range), those extra points could put you into the highly gifted range. Of course, that number is only the average, but no light users of marijuana had a decrease in scores.

 

[michel]

I can't talk about drugs; I've never tried any. But alcohol.... somehow alcohol allows me to relax, lose my inhibitions, and well, I guess 'In vino veritas' allows me to bore every one to death with talk of all the kinds of subjects I love to talk about, but never get the opportunity.....

Hey guys, this forum means I can give up alcohol!!:jiggy::jiggy:

 

[TheTrendyCynic]

Very interesting -- thank you for posting that, Druidus. I hope someone else looks at the possible beneficial effect marijuana can have on IQ, perhaps only to dismiss this study's findings as a statistical anomaly brought about by the small sample group.

I agree with the findings of the study -- I'm also confident that, if the study continued after the heavy users ceased smoking, their mental clarity would return (though still diminished, as one can't dismiss the effects that continous marijuana use throughout their schooling would have on their mental development). Interesting that this possibility wasn't looked at.

These sample group studies need to take into account third causes, and they never seem to do so. If you take a group of students who began smoking marijuana at the age of 9, then it is a reasonable possibility -- certainly reasonable enough to warrant investigation -- that their development has suffered in other ways. Perhaps their parents are neglectful, perhaps they fell in with a bad crowd, etc. Regardless, these factors should be looked at and reported as possible causes of both marijuana use and reduced IQ, compared with those average, studious students whose more resposible focus on studies (and the benefits to intelligence that implies) might prevent them from experimenting with drugs.

The study isn't wrong; it affirms what is already known. It was probably conducted responsibly and likely did look at those factors. I just wish those contributing issues were reported in that article, just to add a bit more credibility to the study's conclusions.

 

[Circle_One]

Can drugs and/or alcohol lead us to greater sprirituality? If so, under what circumstances can they do this? If not, do they actually decrease our spirituality or are they neutral? What do you think?

I don't think one can say, with absolute fact whether drugs and alcohol enhance or decrease spirituality because it's not something that can be proven scientifically. However, it can be proven, or disproven internally, with oneself.

I think it depends on the user and so it is up to the user to make their own opinions on whether these substances enhance or decrease their own spirituality. I know many witches, Druids and other Pagan societies and religions do now and have in times past, used psychedellic drugs as a means of "opening their minds" so to speak, during festivals, rituals, invocations and rites.

 

[SoulTYPE]

Both can cause the mind to engage false thoughts, so yes, it has the possibility of FALSLY increasing our spirtuality.

 

[robtex]

I would make the comment that for a large percentage of the religious population their religious interactions on a personal basis with God is primarly an emotional transaction. When people say they feel God in their hearts, lives ect they mean that the idea of God creates an emotional feeling of them as opposed to they physically touch God.

Drugs are used a mood alteration mechanism. Any common recreation drug either brings up mellows you about by bringing you down or causes hallucinations.

In regards to the mood altering drugs if many recreational drugs can alter mood and one's personal relationship is God is based largely in their emotions I would see how they would have a strong likelyhood to commliment each other as mutually enhancing devices.

With regards to the hallucinagins, euphoria can be achieved by created the precrievable reality of God by hallucinations. Meaning since one cannot see hear or touch Gods drugs that are hallucingins can bridge that gap and reality by making that possible. This could be an intigation of euphoria.

In short recreational drugs that are mood altering in nature compliment ones interaciton in God which is also mood altering and hallucingins can make the impossible seem possible making recreationsal drugs a possible religious enhancing experience.

 

[TheTrendyCynic]

Both can cause the mind to engage false thoughts, so yes, it has the possibility of FALSLY increasing our spirtuality.

And what, pray tell, is a 'false thought?' That sounds vaguely Orwellian

Is it not logical, at least within the scope of an Earth-based faith, that the mind-altering effects of organic drugs (mushrooms, for example) might be seen as a gift from the deity being worshipped as a means of communicating with or contemplating the incomprehensible? The necessary and unsupported premise ('there is a God') aside, I see that as being logically sound.

Drugs are used a mood alteration mechanism.

That's a generalization I disagree with. While drugs do have mood altering effects, they also have mind altering effects. They affect how you think -- in many cases, this leads to nonsensical connections and fairly silly revelations, but beneficial outcomes are also possible (self-analysis, empathy, oneness, etc). I think it's fair to say that, when using psychadelics for spiritual purposes, the user is more interested in the mind altering effects than the mood altering effects, more interested in the thoughts being stimluated by the drug than the emotions being stimulated.

 

[SoulTYPE]

See, there are strong tablets I take that have codine in them. They have the same effect as drugs, in a mind altering way. They make me (and no, they aren't antideps), and trust me, they CAN increase your spirituailty