Can explicit atheists ever really understand atheism?

[Ishmael]

Woo Woo sites only tell us that you do not understand what you oppose.

Lucky for us Proselytism - Wikipedia isn't illegal in this country.

But getting back to the "I can't believe anything that might be a myth" theory that has been espoused, may I courteously recommend two of my favorite books for your edification:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6130/6130-pdf.pdf

http://www.boyle.kyschools.us/UserFiles/88/The Odyssey.pdf

Homer is a charmer isn't he?

Guess we can disregard everything written in both those volumes of classical literature as just another case of mythological mummery.

No need to study them at all to see if there be any anthropological, archeological, philosophical or even spiritual significance recorded.

Please don't get me wrong, I do not strongly oppose any form of atheism because everyone has a right to their beliefs or non-beliefs.

What I oppose are those who oppress others for theirs.

If you say, "There is NO God!" I will say, "There is and He has spoken to me." If you then say, "You are insane!" I will say, "Use the Scientific Method to Prove it."

IF all you are saying is that at the present time you have seen no empirical proof of the God in which I and at least 144,000 others do faithfully believe; nor any other for that matter. I will say humbly, "just wait."

The End—the Coming of the Son of Man (21:25-38) - The IVP New Testament Commentary Series - Bible Gateway

Son of man (Christianity) - Wikipedia

Second Coming - Wikipedia

Till then,

May Grace & Peace & Love be multiplied to us all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Lucky for us Proselytism - Wikipedia isn't illegal in this country.

But getting back to the "I can't believe anything that might be a myth" theory that has been espoused, may I courteously recommend two of my favorite books for your edification:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6130/6130-pdf.pdf

http://www.boyle.kyschools.us/UserFiles/88/The Odyssey.pdf

Homer is a charmer isn't he?

Guess we can disregard everything written in both those volumes of classical literature as just another case of mythological mummery.

No need to study them at all to see if there be any anthropological, archeological, philosophical or even spiritual significance recorded.

Please don't get me wrong, I do not strongly oppose any form of atheism because everyone has a right to their beliefs or non-beliefs.

What I oppose are those who oppress others for theirs.

If you say, "There is NO God!" I will say, "There is and He has spoken to me." If you then say, "You are insane!" I will say, "Use the Scientific Method to Prove it."

IF all you are saying is that at the present time you have seen no empirical proof of the God in which I and at least 144,000 others do faithfully believe; nor any other for that matter. I will say humbly, "just wait."

The End—the Coming of the Son of Man (21:25-38) - The IVP New Testament Commentary Series - Bible Gateway

Son of man (Christianity) - Wikipedia

Second Coming - Wikipedia

Till then,

May Grace & Peace & Love be multiplied to us all.

Can you debate properly and honestly? That means no strawman arguments as you used in your post. If you make a claim you need to be able to support it. Avoid nonsense when at all possible. In other words, be polite.

It might help if you learned what evidence is. You have no "empirical proof". You do not even have empirical evidence that supports your claims.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But getting back to the "I can't believe anything that might be a myth" theory that has been espoused, may I courteously recommend two of my favorite books for your edification:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6130/6130-pdf.pdf

http://www.boyle.kyschools.us/UserFiles/88/The Odyssey.pdf

Homer is a charmer isn't he?

Guess we can disregard everything written in both those volumes of classical literature as just another case of mythological mummery.

No need to study them at all to see if there be any anthropological, archeological, philosophical or even spiritual significance recorded.

This is no better than a strawman. Nobody has said that there isn't value in myth, or that there is nothing worthwhile to be found in stories that are fictional or fictionalized accounts, merely that it is foolish to believe something to be true if you have good reason to believe it is myth. Homer's Odyssey has incredible artistic and historical merit and worth, but that doesn't mean that we should believe its contents to be literally and historically accurate.

Please don't get me wrong, I do not strongly oppose any form of atheism because everyone has a right to their beliefs or non-beliefs.

What I oppose are those who oppress others for theirs.

If you say, "There is NO God!" I will say, "There is and He has spoken to me." If you then say, "You are insane!" I will say, "Use the Scientific Method to Prove it."

So, do you believe that anyone who claims to hear voices in their head cannot be deemed to be suffering from delusions?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Cognitive dissonance is t possible for certain people.

I would imagine we all have levels of dissonance we can cope with.

 

[joe1776]

You probably just fooled yourself. Sadly the Million Dollar Challenge is over, but bear in mind for all of the years that it existed no one was able to pass it.

You reveal yourself as a pseudo-skeptic. You don't know me or have any idea of my IQ but you jump to the conclusion that I probably fooled myself because my claim doesn't confirm your bias.

Moreover, you aren't skeptical of Randi's million dollar challenge despite the evidence that James Randi made his living for many years as an expert in deception, didn't allow pairs to challenge and didn't arrange for an independent arbitration process to decide whether a challenge succeeded. That should be enough evidence on its face to cause doubt.

And finally, your statement that "Knowledge is demonstrable, if you can't show it, you don't know it" would mean that you don't really know anything that has ever happened to you unless you could demonstrate it to others. It's a ridiculous statement.

 

[Desert Snake]

And finally, your statement that "Knowledge is demonstrable, if you can't show it, you don't know it" would mean that you don't really know anything that has ever happened to you unless you could demonstrate it to others. It's a ridiculous statement.

Agreed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You reveal yourself as a pseudo-skeptic. You don't know me or have any idea of my IQ but you jump to the conclusion that I probably fooled myself because my claim doesn't confirm your bias.

Please watch the false claims and personal attacks. I did not attack your intelligence, I merely drew a rational conclusion. Your irrational attack merely adds support to that conclusion.

Moreover, you aren't skeptical of Randi's million dollar challenge despite the evidence that James Randi made his living for many years as an expert in deception, didn't allow pairs to challenge and didn't arrange for an independent arbitration process to decide whether a challenge succeeded. That should be enough evidence on its face to cause doubt.

Now you put the burden of proof even more strongly upon yourself with an attack on Randi. A!omg with a ridiculous demand. You do not seem to understand the testing that he did at all. Nor do you understand why a third-party observer would be almost worthless.

And finally, your statement that "Knowledge is demonstrable, if you can't show it, you don't know it" would mean that you don't really know anything that has ever happened to you unless you could demonstrate it to others. It's a ridiculous statement.

No, far from it. I can show that I know all sorts of things. Perhaps you are jealous because you can't.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Agreed.

It appears that this is an open admission of ignorance on your part as well.

I can support my claims in multiple ways. Can you claim the same?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Disciple of Jesus,
It seems to me that the best answer, or description of an atheist is found in the Bible itself, Psalms 14:1, 53:1.
The reason for an atheist not believing in God, is, that they do not search for Him, with sincerity, Psalms 10:3,4, Proverbs 2:3-14. It seems that atheists do not want to know God, because that would would limit their actions, they would be required to obey His laws, which they do not want to do. It seems that they want to do whatever they want to do, whenever they want to, without having to answer for their actions. The problem with this Godless way of life is, their is a God that requires certain obedience, for any person to live in the Paradise Earth, that God has Purposed, Revelation 21:3-8. Agape!!!

Do you know any atheists personally? Are you friends with any? If so, are all those friends of yours "[doing] whatever they want to do?" And if not, then I suggest befriending some. Talk to them... find out yourself what motivates them. I doubt for many self-proclaimed atheists that what you have assumed here is anywhere close to the truth.

There's also our law system to think on. It is a secular system, separated from religion. The reason the major tenets of law coincide heavily with biblical commandments is not because the laws were crafted with religion in mind, but because most of them are just common-sense moral precepts that most all successful societies have adopted, with or without knowledge of your God or your bible. The separation is also extremely clear just by looking at the very first of the 10 commandments from the bible: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". It was apparently important enough to be listed as the very first - and yet modern law discarded it. Why is that, do you think?

Also, another ridiculously obvious point to be made comes in the form of this question (which I am sure you have been asked many times, but which you have probably answered far fewer): Without God, do you believe that YOU would be out "[doing] whatever [you] [wanted] to do?" Would you find yourself with absolutely NO reason to maintain moral behaviors? Is that the kind of person you are? If so, then perhaps religion is the best course for you. We certainly don't need more hedonistic candidates for criminality on the streets.

 

[Ishmael]

This is no better than a strawman. Nobody has said that there isn't value in myth, or that there is nothing worthwhile to be found in stories that are fictional or fictionalized accounts, merely that it is foolish to believe something to be true if you have good reason to believe it is myth. Homer's Odyssey has incredible artistic and historical merit and worth, but that doesn't mean that we should believe its contents to be literally and historically accurate.


So, do you believe that anyone who claims to hear voices in their head cannot be deemed to be suffering from delusions?

Please forgive me for not expounding upon the specifics of the communication but the voice (singular) was like the noise of many waters and it came OUT of my right arm with what felt like the strike of a lightning bolt and then it commanded me.

This occurred after three days of fasting and fervent prayer when I finally took a drink of water.

But the now Spirit has moved me to remember Proverbs 17:28.

And Romans 3:4 Absolutely not! Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that You may be justified in Your words, and prevail in Your judgments."

Have a nice day!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Please forgive me for not expounding upon the specifics of the communication but the voice (singular) was like the noise of many waters and it came OUT of my right arm with what felt like the strike of a lightning bolt and then it commanded me.

This occurred after three days of fasting and fervent prayer when I finally took a drink of water.

But the now Spirit has moved me to remember Proverbs 17:28.

And Romans 3:4 Absolutely not! Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that You may be justified in Your words, and prevail in Your judgments."

Have a nice day!

Sounds like a hallucination brought on by your fasting and denial of water. When one has to go through severe mind affecting behavior it takes away the credibility of the "vision".

 

[David T]

I would imagine we all have levels of dissonance we can cope with.

I think that's why John Muir wrote "off to the woods I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.". Trees often times make total sense in a nonsensical world we create.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Please forgive me for not expounding upon the specifics of the communication but the voice (singular) was like the noise of many waters and it came OUT of my right arm with what felt like the strike of a lightning bolt and then it commanded me.

This occurred after three days of fasting and fervent prayer when I finally took a drink of water.

But the now Spirit has moved me to remember Proverbs 17:28.

And Romans 3:4 Absolutely not! Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that You may be justified in Your words, and prevail in Your judgments."

Have a nice day!

You haven't really answered my question. When a person hears voices, seemingly in their own head, are they NEVER delusional? Are the voices ALWAYS real?

 

[joe1776]

Please watch the false claims and personal attacks. I did not attack your intelligence, I merely drew a rational conclusion. Your irrational attack merely adds support to that conclusion.

In order to draw a rational conclusion from what I wrote, you would have to KNOW that precognition and telepathy are not possible and If you know it, according to your statement, you should be able to demonstrate it. So, Please demonstrate that precognition and telepathy are not possible.

If you can't do that, then please admit that you simply don't believe my claims could be true because such extraordinary things have never happened to you.

 

[Audie]

One thing I've noticed, is that of all non religious we'll say, or rather anti-theists, what not, explicit atheists seem to understand atheism, the least. This has even affected the very way that atheism is defined.

Ie,
'Know there is no god or gods'
No, you're getting what you think you know, mixed up with know

'No evidence for god or gods'
No, you're getting what your perspective is, mixed up with a fact statement

The only non god adherents who understand non god adherence, seem to be agnostics, and then it gets muddled with 'atheism', a claim to know that god or gods, doesn't exist, or isn't real.

Itr is not necessarily impossible that a "theist" could graps
the thinking of an atheist, but I doubt any here ever will.

It is like "theists" are fish, and of course they live in water.
Everything about them is about life in water; life for them,
without water is inconceivable. Deprived, they'd flop about
for a bit, and die. Figuratively, and literally.

To an atheist, "god", or, the impossibility of life out of water
is not an issue. The only interest is in observing the antics
of those who cannot get out of the water.

Religion is a disability, not an asset.

You sure dont get it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I call this thread, "the blind leading the deaf".

Then again, I tend to see things in black and white, so you'll have to excuse me.

 

[Audie]

[QUOTE="ADigitalArtist, post: 5672963, member: 56353"]I know lots of atheists who claim to know God with a capitol G doesn't exist. Less that claim to know all gods of all concepts don't exist. But I do know some. There are some who have adopted Hawking's unified theory as meaning gods can't exist. There's nothing to be done that isn't explained by physical process. The only gods there are exist in the decreasing gaps of knowledge.

I am not one of them.[/QUOTE]

Dont guess I ever met one of those,
butt if someone said it it would get the
same facepalm as "Noah's Ark".
Both are equally foolish thing.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Makes the claim that god or gods doesn't exist, usually by an argument of evidence, however any argument could really be made, or not, for that claim. It's god or gods don't exist', and they claim to know that.

Well, your argument (such as it is) falls flat from the get-go.

Mainly due to the fact that "god" is rather undefined in your opening statement(s).

Without a solid definition of which god? You really cannot make such a sweeping claim.

For example, if someone claims that a Giant Green (but invisible) People Eater is living in Central Park, but only ever eats people when no one is looking, but should be worshiped?

I think it's pretty safe to say that such a beast-god doesn't exist, and pretty definitively too.

You seem to think that there is only one meaning of the word "god"....! A casual stroll through these pages? Ought to have disabused you of that silly notion!

 

[Subduction Zone]

In order to draw a rational conclusion from what I wrote, you would have to KNOW that precognition and telepathy are not possible and If you know it, according to your statement, you should be able to demonstrate it. So, Please demonstrate that precognition and telepathy are not possible.

If you can't do that, then please admit that you simply don't believe my claims could be true because such extraordinary things have never happened to you.

Wrong again.

you have no clue on how to reason rationally. I only need to know that there are no reliable claims . You refuted your own claim by explaining why you were delusional.

 

[Audie]

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

I think, therefore I Am?

The Illusion of Matter: Our Physical Material World Isn’t Really Physical At All

Here is palpable foolishness, if you want to talk
who is foolish, or quote bible at us.

This is pure nonsense.

13Then God said to Noah, “The end of all living creatures has come before Me, because through them the earth is full of violence. Now behold, I will destroy both them and the earth. 14Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; make rooms in the arkand coat it with pitch inside and out. 15And this is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high.…

So why exactly will your quoting from such a thoroughly impeached source impress anyone not in the cult
already?