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Can free will exist in the same Universe as true prophecies and a God that knows the future?

ruffen

Active Member
It seems that much of what is looked at as evidence for God's existence (or the prophet Muhammad's honesty or the validity of the Bible) is that the religions or their followers have made predictions and prophecies that have come true. God has let them glimpse a little bit of the future.

If a God exists that knows the future, can we have free will? If God already knows what will happen before it happens, he must also know what every one of us will choose to do, and all we can do is act it out, believing we have free will. If we have true free will, even God shouldn't be able to know what we'll do next, but that introduces a problem with prophecies and revelations that depend on the future to be visible for God or his chosen prophets.

If we do have free will, how can God know how the big battle between good and evil will turn out as described in Revelation? How can any God say that the good will emerge victorious or know the numbers of people on each side?

If we don't have free will and everything is foreseeable by God, why did he act all upset and angry at Adam and Eve for that fruit incident? Why is there the problem of Evil (since that is usually attempted explained by free will)?
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Well to put this in simple terms.........we do not have free will. Our actions are based upon the ability our brains have and the events which impact our lives. We feel with sad when encounter something sad so by that definition we act instinctively on this. Because of the easy manipulation of our responses by social interactions and individualistic experiences we hath no free will truly.
I view the relationship of god as Master and Slave in the serfdom sense. God willed something to happen so it happens and any move you make is inescapable from god's will. So to say we hath free will is almost hypocrisy to some extent if you believe in a creative god or an all powerful one. The very biological structure, social interactions, and thoughts you make were ALL created by god so to believe you are free of a design falls on idiocy.
Free will is something god has since he by definition is uncreated and free from set interactions.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Knowledge is separate from will. God could know everything but whether he does anything about it is another story. For us to have freewill god would have to let go of some of his omnipotence otherwise every single thing that happens would be the will of god.
 

maxfreakout

Active Member
the existence of an omniscient God is logically incompatible with the existence of free will, there can be one or the other, but not both in a logically consistent universe
 

InChrist

Free4ever
It seems that much of what is looked at as evidence for God's existence (or the prophet Muhammad's honesty or the validity of the Bible) is that the religions or their followers have made predictions and prophecies that have come true. God has let them glimpse a little bit of the future.

If a God exists that knows the future, can we have free will? If God already knows what will happen before it happens, he must also know what every one of us will choose to do, and all we can do is act it out, believing we have free will. If we have true free will, even God shouldn't be able to know what we'll do next, but that introduces a problem with prophecies and revelations that depend on the future to be visible for God or his chosen prophets.

If we do have free will, how can God know how the big battle between good and evil will turn out as described in Revelation? How can any God say that the good will emerge victorious or know the numbers of people on each side?

If we don't have free will and everything is foreseeable by God, why did he act all upset and angry at Adam and Eve for that fruit incident? Why is there the problem of Evil (since that is usually attempted explained by free will)?


I do not see a conflict between God's knowledge of our future and human freewill because I don't believe God is bound by linear time. God observes human history past, present and future all at once from a vantage point outside of our time frame. This means that He sees what to us are future choices and events. Just because God is observing all earthy human events (past-future) does not mean that the humans involved are not completely free to make the choices they make. Nor does it mean that God is pleased with all the choices humans make.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
the existence of an omniscient God is logically incompatible with the existence of free will, there can be one or the other, but not both in a logically consistent universe

I should add that Muslims to some extent do not accept the totality of free will as they believe it is the nature of the ruh(soul) to worship Allah.
They also believe int he inevitable straying and forthcoming of people to or from Islam oddly yet some deny this.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
One thing to remember is that the Bible God is not just all-knowing but all-powerful as well. This is important because as it is a function of its omniscience that it knows the future it is also a function of its omnipotence that it can change that future. In addition to this, the omniscient being is not only aware of every detail of every future event, but also every detail of every possible future event. That is it knows what will happen if the butterfly turns left or right up or down and which way the hurricane will blow in all four cases. It can also select which of these it wants to happen and change its mind as many times as it likes up to and including rewinding reality and playing it again in every single instance it likes.

Now, I have no idea what 'free will' is supposed to mean as opposed to just 'will' so I really don't know if the above information counts as an argument for or against such a thing. Perhaps you can fill that definition in for me and we can go from there.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
If a God exists that knows the future, can we have free will? If God already knows what will happen before it happens, he must also know what every one of us will choose to do, and all we can do is act it out, believing we have free will. If we have true free will, even God shouldn't be able to know what we'll do next, but that introduces a problem with prophecies and revelations that depend on the future to be visible for God or his chosen prophets.

Having knowledge of future does not contradict with free will.
A Doctor by examining an ill person who has cancer, can very accurately predict how long later that person will die. But the Doctor does not cause the patience to die. Same goes with God. He has perfect knowledge of future, but does not control it.

Having said that, God can have overall Wills and plans for mankind, and He makes it happen by planning for it. for example, He had Willed to Unite Mankind. Then in Baha'i View, for this to happen, He sent Baha'u'llah to teach us how to achieve this goal. Therefore if He wants something to happen, He makes it happen without interfering with free-will. But rather by His Wisdom He makes things happen.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Having knowledge of future does not contradict with free will.
A Doctor by examining an ill person who has cancer, can very accurately predict how long later that person will die. But the Doctor does not cause the patience to die. Same goes with God. He has perfect knowledge of future, but does not control it.

Having said that, God can have overall Wills and plans for mankind, and He makes it happen by planning for it. for example, He had Willed to Unite Mankind. Then in Baha'i View, for this to happen, He sent Baha'u'llah to teach us how to achieve this goal. Therefore if He wants something to happen, He makes it happen without interfering with free-will. But rather by His Wisdom He makes things happen.

God does not control it but he is the cause and factor zero behind it. His knowledge of it immediately removes the plausibility that anything we do is of our own accord when his planned creation affects its' own behavior.

A doctor diagnosing a cancer patience cannot be compared to god because unlike god the doctor did not become the result of the cancer nor can he fully know the actions of his patients once outside of the office. God's territory/office is all of existence on the other hand and he is the cause and creator of the cancer and knows who will and will not get it and fully calculates the vast endless possibilities of every action.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
In my experience, Free Will is a meaningless concept. It just appears to make sense when offered together with the idea of an omnipotent yet somehow cavalier God.

The contradictions of the two ideas balance each other to a degree. But if anything, Free Will is by far the weakest of the two: it can either have a clear meaning or have a hope of existing somehow, but never both.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
A doctor diagnosing a cancer patience cannot be compared to god because unlike god the doctor did not become the result of the cancer ....

Well Scientifically speaking, cancer is caused by many factors. for example smoking can be the cause of lung cancer. Genetics is also another factor. So, I don't believe God causes anyone to get cancer. There is a scientific explanation for it, rather than bringing God in the middle.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I think free-will is relative to who the observer is. I call it the George-Ananda theory of relativity (Einstein got a Nobel prize for his theory and all I got for mine was one frubal from Willamena months ago).

Anyway, relative to God/Brahman there is no free will. His mind wrote the script of all this. Relative to us, there is free will; which is what matters to us in an everyday sense.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Well Scientifically speaking, cancer is caused by many factors. for example smoking can be the cause of lung cancer. Genetics is also another factor. So, I don't believe God causes anyone to get cancer. There is a scientific explanation for it, rather than bringing God in the middle.

God created biological life and all the the proteins, chemical compounds and requirements for cancer to exist. He created the necessities for man to live so he to created cancer.
So your argument is rendered invalid.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Here's something I posted a while back. It's really long, but this is an issue that people still wrack their brains over, and I feel that it answers the question well.

tl;dr, God knows what we do because we do it. Our actions are the cause of God's knowledge, not the other way around.

If that didn't clear it up for you, then read on... :D

Thus, God, because of His justice, mercy and providence for all, desires salvation for all. . . This is declared by the Son of God Himself in His holy Gospel: (Matt. 18:14). He calls all to Himself. This is why David says, the Lord hath spoken, and called the earth (Psalm 49:1).

From on high, first by the mouths of the prophets, and in the latter days through His Son, the incarnate Word, God called the whole world to salvation. This is why the heavenly Jerusalem, as seen by John in the Apocalypse, had twelve gates. These gates, grouped in threes, face all the ends of the earth so that we would know that God opened paradise for the entire universe. The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth, for He wants all to be saved.

Yet in actuality, this is only a desire which St. John Damascene (in harmony with the entire choir of theologians) calls preliminary. This desire of God, in and of itself, is not sufficient for the salvation of man. It is only like the pillar of fire which showed the way for the Jews in the desert. It shows the way, but does not force one along the way to salvation. God calls. Yet it is necessary that man listen. The will of God is only one wing. A second wing is necessary for flight to the heavens. This is our will. The will of God and the will of man join to form predestination. God desires; if man desires also, then he is already on the road to salvation. . .

"Grace," says the divine Chrysostom (St. John), "though it is grace, yet it saves only those who desire." "Salvation," according to the words of the Theologian (St. Gregory), "must be our work and God's." Rain falls on the ground. Yet the earth does not produce fruit if the husbandman does not labor. The sun shines everywhere. Yet, one who desires to accept its light must open his eyes. This means that God grants all the grace and help, yet the will of man must cooperate with this grace. God desired to save Noah during the flood in which the entire world perished, but He required that he build the ark with his own hands. God wanted to cleanse Nehemiah from leprosy, but He required that Nehemiah himself go and wash in the Jordan. He wants to open the eyes of the one born blind. Yet here again He requires that the blind one wash himself in the pool of Siloam. God desires salvation for all people, but requires that each cooperate in his or her salvation. . .

Now you will tell me: "Me, be found worthy? How is this? God knows ahead of time if I am predestined for paradise or doomed to torment. If I am predestined for paradise, to attain it there is need for no further toil. If I am sentenced to torment, it is completely futile for me to try to escape it. Neither in the first case, nor in the second am I free. The foreknowledge of God is exact; that which God foresees most definitely must happen. If I am free to do that which God does not foresee, then God is mistaken, which is not possible." What are you saying, oh man? You say, "If I am free, then God is mistaken?" But I will argue that if I am not free, then God deceives me. If I am not free then He leads me astray, for by the mouths of the prophets and apostles, even by His very own lips, He calls me to repentance, though He knows very well that I most definitely lack the freedom to repent. If I am not free, He deceives me, for He calls me to take up the cross and follow Him. Yet He has bound up my will. He deceives me, for He orders me to adhere to His commandments; yet with His predestination He deprives me of power. And so, if I am not free, then is not our faith a mistake? Is not the Gospel a joke? No! God does not err, for He is Wisdom Itself. He does not deceive others for he is Truth Itself. You do not understand what divine foreknowledge is and what it accomplishes. So listen. This is definitely a stumbling block upon which many have tripped and fallen. Yet, one who thinks as you do is sorely mistaken and very far from the truth. If you are ill, does not God know whether you will recover or die? But just because of this is it true that you should not call a physician, refuse any medicines, and sit with your hands folded and await either health or death? In such a case you would be very unwise, even foolish. It is one thing that God foresees your healing or death (and this is certainly true). It is completely another thing to assume that God's foreknowledge grants you health or death (and this is certainly false). If you take care of yourself, you will be healed, and in the opposite case you will die. God foresees both cases, yet neither is brought into existence by God's foreknowledge. You will either get better or die. Only one of these two is true, but not determined definitively. Try to understand this more fully. God definitely foresees whether you will be in paradise or in hell. In a mirror we are reflected just as we are in reality. The beautiful are beautiful and the reverse. Likewise in God's pure foreknowledge we appear as we are in actuality, either written in bright letters in the book of life or inscribed in the eternal book of death. If we are righteous, then we are among the ranks of the righteous who are saved. If we are sinners, then we are on the list of condemned sinners. A mirror reflects our appearance. God's foreknowledge reflects our will. This is the view of St. Gregory of Nyssa: "The righteous judgement of God takes into consideration our disposition. He grants to us according to our inner feelings."
A mirror, which reflects both the beautiful and the horrid, does not make them so. Likewise the foreknowledge of God, in which one is predestined for paradise, and another is condemned to torment, in actuality does not force one to salvation and the other to condemnation. "Foreknowledge of God, the Theologian tells us, is intuitive and not active." This means that you are saved or condemned, not because God foresees your salvation or condemnation, but that either by your good works you cooperated with God's grace and God foresees your salvation, or that by your evil deeds you avoid the grace of God and will suffer for it, and God foresees your torment. Thus Judas betrayed Christ not because Christ foresaw his betrayal, but rather Christ foresaw the betrayal of Judas because he intended to betray Christ. Ibis is how the wise Justin, philosopher and martyr speaks about this: "The cause of future events is not foreknowledge, but foreknowledge is the result of future events. The future does not flow forth from foreknowledge, but foreknowledge from the future. It is not Christ who is the cause of the betrayal of Judas. But the betrayal is the cause of the Lord's foreknowledge."

. . .Well, and what if I were to tell you that it was already predestined, that it was already decided that you were either saved or would perish? Is it then possible that because of this you . . . do nothing on your own and simply wait for either salvation or condemnation? In such a case you would be the most foolish person. Take another look in the mirror, would you please. Today you are healthy and the mirror shows your fine appearance. Tomorrow you may be ill, then it will show your sickly appearance. When you are well again, it will again show the first. Just as your face changes its appearance, so the mirror changes your image. Now then, when you live a God-pleasing life, God foresees you in paradise. Tomorrow if you sin, God will foreordain you for torment. You again repent again you are foreordained for salvation. As you change your life, so God changes His decision. God's judgement conforms to our will and conforms to our disposition.

I will finish with two illustrations from Divine Scripture. The blessed Paul, while bound, sailed to Italy on a certain Alexandrian ship in order to stand before the Emperor. Suddenly in the middle of the deep night, a great storm arises. The wind blows strongly, the sea is turbulent. There is great mortal danger, no hope for salvation. Yet God, desiring to preserve His servant, sends him His angel with the message: (Acts 27:24). Hearing this divine promise, the sailors were somewhat heartened that they would be saved and intended to leave the vessel and reach shore by boat. (Acts 27:3 1). What are you saying Paul? Did not God ordain to save all? Does it not matter, if they stay on the ship or not? No, God determined to save them, but requires that they cooperate in this. If everyone does not stay on board and do their job, they perish. Will those perish whom God has destined to be saved? Does God's destination change? Yes, it can be no other way. . .

Here's another example: The King Hezekiah became ill. God destines him to die and sends the prophet Isaiah to say: Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live (II Kings 20: 1). The unfortunate Hezekiah turns his face to the wall, sighs, cries, pleads. What are you doing, oh hapless king?! Has not God appointed you to death? Is it not in vain that you cry and plead? Can one whom God has ordained to die, live? Does God's decision change? Yes, brothers and sisters, this determination also changed! God had pity on the tears of Hezekiah and determined that he live. He even granted him fifteen years of life.(II Kings 20:5,6).
-Source
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
God created biological life and all the the proteins, chemical compounds and requirements for cancer to exist. He created the necessities for man to live so he to created cancer.
So your argument is rendered invalid.
Which your argument does not disprove free will. It is like saying, God created "fat". so, when we eat too much fat, we get high cholesterol and have a heart attack eventually. This type of argument does not disprove free will, for we can avoid fat by eating fat-free food. ;)
 
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Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Which your argument does not disprove free will. It is like saying, God created "fat". so, when we eat too much fat, we get high cholesterol and have a heart attack eventually. This type of argument does not disprove free will, for we can avoid fat by eating fat-free food. ;)

But god created the state of obesity as he permitted us to eat ourselves to death. So ultimately he let us do such a thing and not ourselves. He lets us think what we desire and he lets us live on his property and we actually are his property. Everything we do and can possibly do is done with the permission of god so that means there is no free will. Everything lives under God's subjugation
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
I would suggest that the simple existence of such an entity (without this contravention) might not be impossible under many potential constructions of our reality; however that presupposes certain constraints on said knowledge or on said entity - namely that said knowledge (if inviolable i.e. not possible to contravene) cannot be accurately conveyed by any means to any entity capable of such a contravention.

Were the entity with this knowledge and with this capacity to be the same entity, it would seem to either prevent the knowledge from being inviolable in the first place or else would in some way infringe upon either the entity's capability or their desire to act upon that capability; else there exists a logical contradiction if indeed logic can be applied to said entity.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
But god created the state of obesity as he permitted us to eat ourselves to death. So ultimately he let us do such a thing and not ourselves. He lets us think what we desire and he lets us live on his property and we actually are his property. Everything we do and can possibly do is done with the permission of god so that means there is no free will. Everything lives under God's subjugation
So God permitting our action takes our free will out of that action? How does that make sense?
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
I would have framed it differently, if God has inviolable, accurate foreknowledge (as a part of his/her omniscience) and is capable of interacting with existence in such a way as to either: have formulated the creation of the universe as he/she saw fit to the extent that he/she was able to fine tune reality in the present through actions taken long ago or else that he/she was able to interact with existence currently in order to effect the extant state of reality.

This would mean that he/she was capable of having predicted everything we would ever do and every alteration in the extant state of the universe, given omnipotence (or some similar level of power to the extent described above) this would mean that such an entity could have created the universe as they saw fit taking into account our actions and thoughts such that though they are seemingly unrestricted are indeed predetermined and it would not be possible to think a thought not foreseen, even the most 'random' of events and the effects of such events could be known with absolute certainty. People could have 'free will' yet never deviate from the foreseen course of events; provided that the 'god' was able to fine tune the creation of the universe to a sufficient extent.

The problem as I alluded to earlier is in the transmission of such knowledge; prophecies or revelation etc would seemingly engender change in thinking entities were they aware of it unless transmission of those prophecies actually caused them to become true (self fulfilling)

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On the other hand, were god involved in existence now (as opposed to merely being extremely precise in its formulation in order to ensure that the desired outcomes would eventuate) this would actually mean that god is shaping our experience pro-actively, that god is in fact altering our potential experiences and therefore that the potential freedom of our will is subject to interference. Moreover, if god truly does have inviolable, accurate foreknowledge (as part of his/her omniscience) that would suggest that they should have been aware of these events which would have resulted in their intervention before they even began creating the universe, the fact that they still created the universe as it is - in a way requiring their intervention would imply that their capacity to create the universe as they saw fit was imperfect, otherwise they could simply have created the universe as it would have been without needing their intervention.
 
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