Can free will exist in the same Universe as true prophecies and a God that knows the future?

[Sha'irullah]

So God permitting our action takes our free will out of that action? How does that make sense?

Free will is the act to do something in according to one's desires and do to the fact that god is the one who makes it permissible for anything to happen removes free will by essentially creating us.
When we create computers, no matter how complex they are they have no free will. Our ability to process and think does not mean we have free will as computers can do so also and in most cases better. Emotions are not associated with this either because our very emotions as proven by science are neurological thus biological in origin.
No distinguishing factor rest outside of biological existence to establish our free will. The very fact that we exist is testament to this

 

[Shiranui117]

Free will is the act to do something in according to one's desires and do to the fact that god is the one who makes it permissible for anything to happen removes free will by essentially creating us.
When we create computers, no matter how complex they are they have no free will. Our ability to process and think does not mean we have free will as computers can do so also and in most cases better. Emotions are not associated with this either because our very emotions as proven by science are neurological thus biological in origin.
No distinguishing factor rest outside of biological existence to establish our free will. The very fact that we exist is testament to this

So, you argue that every single decision we make and everything we think and feel is biologically predetermined?

 

[Sha'irullah]

So, you argue that every single decision we make and everything we think and feel is biologically predetermined?

No.
It is reliant upon our biological make up and because of god creating us and all of existence followed the very laws which govern the existence our actions are the results of a singular action which stem from god.
Neurological disorders or tinkering have already proven that all of our emotions and rationalization abilities come from the organ that lies above our arcus superciliaris.
If god being the first cause of everything then he knows the end if he is omniscient

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But god created the state of obesity as he permitted us to eat ourselves to death. So ultimately he let us do such a thing and not ourselves. He lets us think what we desire and he lets us live on his property and we actually are his property. Everything we do and can possibly do is done with the permission of god so that means there is no free will. Everything lives under God's subjugation

There is two concepts that I don't think they contradict with each other. One is the Will of God which is the ultimate Will and plan. Then there the free Will that is given to human by God. Its likeness can be explained with another analogy:

The Fire of A burning candle will ultimately end. Now this candle could be put out because of wind. But it is also possible to protect it from wind by using a glass cover. This is that free will that can change accidental events and prevent them. But ultimately this candle will end and there is nothing to do about it. This is the ultimate Will of God.

 

[BruceDLimber]

If a God exists that knows the future, can we have free will?

Of course!

The fact that God knows it in no way implies that we do!

I've seen an analogy for this, too:

Consider a helicopter in flight watching a train round a mountain.

The pilot can see that there's a rockslide ahead that can derail the train, but the locomotive engineer isn't aware of the fact and so isn't taking any precautions (yet).

This is similar to God's being omniscient but the rest of us necessarily living day-to-day and act by act.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Sha'irullah]

There is two concepts that I don't think they contradict with each other. One is the Will of God which is the ultimate Will and plan. Then there the free Will that is given to human by God. Its likeness can be explained with another analogy:

The Fire of A burning candle will ultimately end. Now this candle could be put out because of wind. But it is also possible to protect it from wind by using a glass cover. This is that free will that can change accidental events and prevent them. But ultimately this candle will end and there is nothing to do about it. This is the ultimate Will of God.

You said Will of God and Plan. So he has a Plan and Desire for our lives? Are we abiding by these plans?
If we are not abiding by his plans then he is not omnipotent and powerless over his creation.

Subscribing to Deism I believe that he has a plan and whatever we do on this earth is his plan and will. He permits murder to occur so that is his will as he has let it occur. I do not understand it but I also know it has no relevancy to us as we are spiritual beings as well. I do not believe god must intervene to fulfill his mandates nor does he make mistakes about his creation. He has given us the capabilities of peace, love, hatred and violence and anything we do or intend to do is inescapable from his will so the belief in free will under this dynamic does not exist. Truly my comparison to god can be summarized in a brief study of the Left Hand Path or dualism.

But if you say that god has a plan for us such as to believe in him or live in supposed peace then he is powerless because we do neither of these things. We reject his plans and he obviously would not desire something knowing we cannot fulfill it. So not only is your got not omniscience nor omnipotent he is also illogical.

Why would you believe Khuda created something only to reject him then state that he has a plan for that creation and called him omniscience and omnipotent.

 

[dust1n]

It seems that much of what is looked at as evidence for God's existence (or the prophet Muhammad's honesty or the validity of the Bible) is that the religions or their followers have made predictions and prophecies that have come true. God has let them glimpse a little bit of the future.

If a God exists that knows the future, can we have free will? If God already knows what will happen before it happens, he must also know what every one of us will choose to do, and all we can do is act it out, believing we have free will. If we have true free will, even God shouldn't be able to know what we'll do next, but that introduces a problem with prophecies and revelations that depend on the future to be visible for God or his chosen prophets.

If we do have free will, how can God know how the big battle between good and evil will turn out as described in Revelation? How can any God say that the good will emerge victorious or know the numbers of people on each side?

If we don't have free will and everything is foreseeable by God, why did he act all upset and angry at Adam and Eve for that fruit incident? Why is there the problem of Evil (since that is usually attempted explained by free will)?

The best and only answer you are going to get is that God is beyond our understanding, untethered by our notions of logic... which, of course itself is illogical because it requires to make yet another unfounded claim about the nature of God.

It amazes me Epicurus realized this even before Christianity existed, and it still holds true!

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

 

[dust1n]

Now, I have no idea what 'free will' is supposed to mean as opposed to just 'will' so I really don't know if the above information counts as an argument for or against such a thing. Perhaps you can fill that definition in for me and we can go from there.

I never quite figured that one out myself.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You said Will of God and Plan. So he has a Plan and Desire for our lives? Are we abiding by these plans?
If we are not abiding by his plans then he is not omnipotent and powerless over his creation.

Subscribing to Deism I believe that he has a plan and whatever we do on this earth is his plan and will. He permits murder to occur so that is his will as he has let it occur. I do not understand it but I also know it has no relevancy to us as we are spiritual beings as well. I do not believe god must intervene to fulfill his mandates nor does he make mistakes about his creation. He has given us the capabilities of peace, love, hatred and violence and anything we do or intend to do is inescapable from his will so the belief in free will under this dynamic does not exist. Truly my comparison to god can be summarized in a brief study of the Left Hand Path or dualism.

But if you say that god has a plan for us such as to believe in him or live in supposed peace then he is powerless because we do neither of these things. We reject his plans and he obviously would not desire something knowing we cannot fulfill it. So not only is your got not omniscience nor omnipotent he is also illogical.

Why would you believe Khuda created something only to reject him then state that he has a plan for that creation and called him omniscience and omnipotent.

Yes I said I believe God has a Will and Plan for us. But by 'us' I do not mean each one of us, as individuals. I mean us as in the whole mankind.
His Will is that this Mankind as a whole make progress. Have more capacity to understand. Now if we look at passed several thousands years till now, did we not progress?
Now, think of evolution. An Atheist says, it happened on its own. I believe the Will of God was behind it.
In the same way, humanity made progress in the last 6000 years ago in terms of science, social and economical systems, technology, capacity to understand and etc.... Many can say, we did it on our own. I believe it was the Will of God behind it, as He sent Prophets progressively and inspired mankind.
So, I believe That the Universal peace and Unity of Mankind shall be establish, because God has willed it. In this sense, His Will is above everyone else and is unfailing. He 'enlightens' everyone, regardless if people believe He is the Source or not.
It is like growing plants. This Sun light makes them grow and be green, even though the plants are unaware of the Sun. Likewise God's Will Shall be surely fulfilled in its due time. He prescribes a time for His Will to be fulfilled. Now, with regards to His Will and Plans, Mankind has no choice. He does what He Wills. He makes them better and grow even if they don't know, He does it.

Then, in addition to the concept above, I believe God expresses His Will for people through His Divine Prophets in every Age. In this sense He asks what each person must do and what not to do, however each one of us has a choice to submit to the Will of God or not. For example He says do not backbite or He asks us say daily prayer to help with spiritual progress and happiness. He does not force anyone. But there is a benefit for us if we abide by His Will.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

If I have a memory of my dog having a pee in the garden, have I infringed on my dog's free will because he is in my memory?

In the same way, we are all in the 'memory' of God, because He is past, present and future. Are our choices based on God's knowledge, or is God's knowledge based on our choices? I would go with the latter. God knows what we have chosen because to Him that actuality has already happened, in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Time is a measurement of the universe. Nothing more. If god created the whole universe then that means he created it from begining to end. If he fashioned everything to every exact detail then where is there room for free will?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Time is a measurement of the universe. Nothing more. If god created the whole universe then that means he created it from begining to end. If he fashioned everything to every exact detail then where is there room for free will?

Not sure why you think it means God had to design/fashion every detail of it from beginning to end...

 

[Falvlun]

Not sure why you think it means God had to design/fashion every detail of it from beginning to end...

Because he likely believes in a long line of cause and effect that began at the beginning and is completely shaping events today. In essence, whatever the first state of things was, determined whatever will be for the eternity of time.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Not sure why you think it means God had to design/fashion every detail of it from beginning to end...

Did he or did he not create the universe? Is he or is he not all powerful? Are you suggesting he created part of the universe but not all of it? There is one universe and time is a measure of it. If he made its length, depth, height and so forth then he also created its axis of time.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Did he or did he not create the universe? Is he or is he not all powerful? Are you suggesting he created part of the universe but not all of it? There is one universe and time is a measure of it. If he made its length, depth, height and so forth then he also created its axis of time.

Yes, but He also created individuals who could have autonomy and individual choice apart from Him. He did not design our choices.

God spoke the universe into existence, and sure He probably made the initial conditions such that life would develop. I don't see why He has to design every minute of it. If He's left us free will, He's left us free will. That could be a form of control too, but it is control in the sense that He is allowing us to make decisions. Due to the metaphysical nature of the soul, I don't believe our choices are determined by the initial conditions of the universe.

 

[Me Myself]

Free will cant exist in general.

 

[Me Myself]

Yes, but He also created individuals who could have autonomy and individual choice apart from Him. He did not design our choices.

God spoke the universe into existence, and sure He probably made the initial conditions such that life would develop. I don't see why He has to design every minute of it. If He's left us free will, He's left us free will. That could be a form of control too, but it is control in the sense that He is allowing us to make decisions. Due to the metaphysical nature of the soul, I don't believe our choices are determined by the initial conditions of the universe.

He created you, with your specific virtues vices, will power, etc, and knew how you would use them before creating you. So, he created you with all your choices.

Where is free will?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Yes, but He also created individuals who could have autonomy and individual choice apart from Him. He did not design our choices.

God spoke the universe into existence, and sure He probably made the initial conditions such that life would develop. I don't see why He has to design every minute of it. If He's left us free will, He's left us free will. That could be a form of control too, but it is control in the sense that He is allowing us to make decisions. Due to the metaphysical nature of the soul, I don't believe our choices are determined by the initial conditions of the universe.

There is no difference between us and the rest of the universe. If he made the universe then he made us. This idea of "time" is just our perception of the universe. Your view is flawed in that you don't seem to understand the nature of time.

If free will exists at all is very much a lively debate in physics without the concept of god. However if there is a god that created everything then by default there cannot be free will. Unless you highly limit the power and "what" god is there isn't a good argument against it.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

There is no difference between us and the rest of the universe. If he made the universe then he made us. This idea of "time" is just our perception of the universe. Your view is flawed in that you don't seem to understand the nature of time.

If free will exists at all is very much a lively debate in physics without the concept of god. However if there is a god that created everything then by default there cannot be free will. Unless you highly limit the power and "what" god is there isn't a good argument against it.

There is no need to limit God's power, if God merely chose to allow us our own decisions and choices. Is that beyond His power?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

There is no need to limit God's power, if God merely chose to allow us our own decisions and choices. Is that beyond His power?

*facepalm*
Until you understand what time is (as it is blatantly obvious you don't know) you won't get it. So tell me what you think time is and then we can see where we go from here in this debate.