Can God be moral?

[Nimos]

However - if we by some miracle (no pun intended ) did somehow come to exist without Him - we would have been miserable forever - since we would have immediately been condemned before the Law.

Therefore - not only would we be required to endure instant punishment for any and all of our violations of Law (sins) - but we would have also been unable to return to God the Father - for He is perfect and no unclean thing can dwell in His presence.

That doesn't seem to make much sense, if God didn't create us, such Law wouldn't have mattered, therefore there would be no sins and no law to violate. The reason you believe in such law is because of God as the judge right? So if God weren't the judge the law wouldn't matter.

God the Father allowed His Son to suffer the worst of all things - so that He could overcome them - and I believe that He did.

I could think of worse things than being crucified, also many others did experience this without being praised as having done anything remarkable. Again remember that he rose 3 days later, so basically it was a rough weekend in divine terms

Any parent who wants their child to succeed and will do everything they can to help - but there are times when parents should not be involved - such as - if their child is standing trial and the parent is either the judge or jury for that case?

But until the child is proven guilty shouldn't the parents support them, rather than instantly assuming that they did something wrong?

That places the Lord Jesus Christ in the position as our creditor - since He has taken our debts upon Himself.

Therefore - He can now set the terms for how we are to pay our debts.

Well that seems like an unfair agreement. If what you say is true, then Jesus basically just bought us all as slaves, by some original sin God could simply have removed?

So - simply claiming, "I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior" - in my opinion - isn't enough for anyone to be forgiven of anything in this life.

It is according to the Apostle Paul, do you think he got that wrong?

They will need to wait until after they have paid the penalties of their sins before being forgiven.

I believe that there are three possible places our spirits can go upon death - Paradise, Prison or Hell - to await the time of their forgiveness, Resurrection and Final Judgment.

Paradise is where those who did as the Lord Jesus Christ commanded them and received forgiveness in this life will dwell - unencumbered by the sins they have already been forgiven of.

These are they who will be engaged in missionary efforts to the spirits in Prison - preaching repentance and forgiveness - as well as fulfilling missions in mortality as "guardian angels" and such.

Prison - which I know sounds awful - is a place where the spirits of those who did not accept the Lord - yet were not willfully rebellious - will go.

It is called Prison because - unlike the spirits in Paradise and Hell - they are not free to leave and interact with other Beings outside of Prison.

While in Prison they will bear the weight of their sins - the memory and guilt of them.

However - these spirits will be visited by emissaries from both Paradise and Hell - each teaching their doctrine and trying to entice them to accept their message.

Depending on which message they accept - they can eventually be forgiven of their sins and be released to Paradise or mire deeper into their sins and become converted to Hell.

Hell - like Prison and Paradise - is a temporary condition placed upon those spirits who were willfully rebellious - often referred to as wicked - and they will bear the weight of their sins - the memory of them - but they will delight in them - yet they will also be heavily influenced and tormented by Satan and his minions.

These are the spirits who will go as emissaries to Prison to try and convince the spirits there to reject the message of repentance and forgiveness as well as fulfill missions in mortality as tempting spirits and such - in some vain attempt to relive their own sins.

But you said earlier in regards to conflicts of interest between humans and God, that we needed free will. But this doesn't sound much like free will is being respected here.

Im an atheist and according to you im going to be thrown in a prison because I don't agree with God. But not only that, I will be visited by "emissaries" trying to convince me against my so called free will, that I should repent my sins and turn to God. First of all, I don't think I have done anything sinful and in case I don't agree to that, Ill be thrown to hell and be punished until I agree to having done something wrong.

Why should I care about the illusion of free will, when its clear according to you, that it is not a matter of free will, but rather a question of being forced into slavery?

How is my free will, being respected in this setup you have presented?

I can only imagine all the reasons for this - but the first that comes to mind is that there wouldn't be enough plants on Earth to feed all the animals of the planet.

I mean - are most plants even edible?

And there is no way God could have made animals eat different plants or have created more different ones?

And even if there were enough plants to go around - then there would be issues with overpopulation of species.

Which would then lead to conflict - over food and resources - so animals would be fighting and killing each other anyways.

As before God couldn't have manage this some other way as well, like making it so animals could only have around one offspring each? Or in case of overpopulation some biological process would prevent them from mating?

Who say that the animals has to work as they do now and not some other way, if God could simply have designed them the way he wanted?

He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him."

There is no distinction between Israelite and foreigner in this regard.

But from a rational point of view, does that make a lot of sense, when the slave owner is allowed to beat their slaves senseless if they like, as long as they don't die from it within two days?

Because it clearly says that slave owners are not allowed to treat hebrew slaves that way, but it doesn't specifically say that this only apply to non hebrew slaves. So wouldn't it make most sense that this rule of running away only apply to hebrew slaves?

Sure - but what if you needed to experience suffering in order to ever experience pleasure?

Well I don't think that is the case. First of all because you can still experience pleasure without an equal amount of pain. Secondly, God's promise humans that there will be no suffering according to Revelation, so clearly it is possible for such place to exist according to God.

That's the kicker - you don't have to.

I promise that our God and Father is fully aware that there are those among His children who do not wish to become like Him or to live with Him again.

You did just say that those people will end up in prison and if they don't agree to the terms they are getting thrown in hell. So I don't really think we were getting that choice. Whether that is atheists or religious people of other religions, because that is a sin according to the bible.

 

[night912]

Sure - but Deuteronomy 23-25-16 states that,

"Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:

He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him."

There is no distinction between Israelite and foreigner in this regard.

If any foreign slave to an Israelite leaves and does not wish to return - the Law declared that they would not be taken back to their master, but that they were free to dwell where they would and that they were not to be oppressed.

This gave the slaves a lot of power and motivated the masters to prepare comfortable, safe and healthy places for them to live and work.

Unlike their neighbors who were sacrificing their slaves and stuff.

It was just a lot different there and then.

You're absolutely wrong about what was written due to your misunderstanding of the passage. The slaves mentioned here are referring to foreign slaves from another country. It's not talking about the foreign slaves owned by Israelites.

There are indicators as the passage is referring to foreign slaves from another country only. The laws of Deuteronomy are aim towards all Israelites as a whole and/or nation, and not individual Israelites. Next, it says that the if foreign slaves come to live with Israelites and can choose to live in whatever Israelite city. It wouldn't make sense if the slaves were already living with Israelites in their country. Those people should not automatically be treated as slaves, instead, they should be treated as immigrants. And those people should not be oppressed as immigrants. It, however says nothing about later on, those particular people should not become slaves to Israelites nor be oppressed once they have become slaves to Israelites.

This passage does give Israelites an easier way of getting their slaves. Instead of travel expenses to go abroad buy slaves, Israelites can use those expenses to buy more immigrant slaves from their own country.

 

[night912]

Therefore - not only would we be required to endure instant punishment for any and all of our violations of Law (sins) - but we would have also been unable to return to God the Father - for He is perfect and no unclean thing can dwell in His presence.

What laws? If the same laws exist with or without a supposed lawmaker, then are the laws actually dependent on the supposed lawmaker existing?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I have been studying and pondering these things the majority of my life - and I don't expect you to agree with me - or even come to understand them as I do.

That doesn't seem to make much sense, if God didn't create us, such Law wouldn't have mattered, therefore there would be no sins and no law to violate.

That same could be said of any person though.

If there were no people - then no earthly law would matter and there would be no criminals around to violate the law.

Yet - then there would be no people - no happiness or misery - but nothing.

I don't understand your logic - your solution to avoid possible misery is for people to have not existed in the first place.

The reason you believe in such law is because of God as the judge right? So if God weren't the judge the law wouldn't matter.

No - I actually believe that the opposite is true.

The Law is inviolate in its effects and if God did not operate according to the Law for our benefit - we would be forever condemned.

God - or rather the Lord Jesus Christ - is our Judge - not to enforce the effects of the Law - since that would happen regardless - but to mitigate its effects.

He is our Mediator with the Law - pleading our cases - arguing that we have been sufficiently humble, kind, patient, loving, charitable - in order to appease the Law - to prove that we at least honored the covenant He made with us when He defended us by taking upon Himself the punishments of our violations (sins).

Basically - He paid a vast sum - and all He is asking from us is a pittance in return - yet according to Law He is able to set the terms - therefore if we pay the bare minimum that He is asking for - we can be extended Mercy and be forgiven according to the Law.

I could think of worse things than being crucified, also many others did experience this without being praised as having done anything remarkable. Again remember that he rose 3 days later, so basically it was a rough weekend in divine terms

No - that is not to what I was referring - and I ask that you be careful - for you are treading upon holy things.

What I meant by "God the Father allowed His Son to suffer the worst of all things" - I was not referring to what Man did Him - but what God the Father allowed to happen to Him.

I am referring to when the Lord Jesus Christ suffered the punishments for our violations (sins) - the whole of Mankind.

It began when He and His disciples went to the Garden of Gethsemane - which was fitting considering that the Fall happened in a Garden.

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke claim that after the Lord admonished His disciples to stay and watch over Him while he goes and prays - yet that He "began to be sorrowful and very heavy" and He told them "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me." (Matthew 26:36-38)

Then Matthew's account claims, "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." (Matthew 26:39)

Mark's account claims, "And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt." (Mark 14:35-36)

Luke's account claims that at this time, "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." (Luke 22:43-44)

The agony was so overwhelming that He fell on His face and asked for any other way to fulfill the plan of God - but there was none - but the Father sent an angel to comfort Him - but He sweat drops of blood.

I believe that this was when His suffering for our sins began - when He made intercession for us with the Law.

All three accounts claim that He tried to rouse His companions - to be with Him - but they slept and that He returned two more times - praying and suffering for hours.

I also believe that while He hung on the cross - the moment when He asked, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" - was the moment for the first time not only in His mortal life - but His eternal existence - when the Holy Spirit of God was withdrawn from Him - and the pains of Gethsemane returned and He was required to suffer them - as well as death - alone.

Now - it is my belief that the pains or "fires" of Hell are us simply receiving the just punishments of our sins - which suffering is unimaginable.

Now consider a Being suffering the just punishments of the sins of all - every single human being who has ever lived, is living and will ever live upon the Earth - and I am not convinced that He suffered only for those on Earth - but all of God's children even on other worlds.

I believe that he suffered the pains of Hell to the nth degree - an infinite suffering - but He suffered it because He loves us.

It was no mere "rough weekend" in any terms - it was infinite Hell - and He volunteered for it.

But until the child is proven guilty shouldn't the parents support them, rather than instantly assuming that they did something wrong?

When it comes to God and the Law - there is no "proving guilt" - we are all guilty - without question.

And He does support us from day to day. He has given us time to change - to work out our salvation. He has given us freedom to choose how to live. He lends us breathe. Causes the sun to shine down on us - and an infinite number of other things.

Well that seems like an unfair agreement. If what you say is true, then Jesus basically just bought us all as slaves, by some original sin God could simply have removed?

Heh. Slaves? What has anyone - God or the Lord Jesus Christ - forced you to do today or any other day?

You don't need to keep His commandments. He does not force you to complete any work - therefore we are not slaves.

We are more like criminals on probation and He is doing everything He can to help us avoid imprisonment.

The only way that this "original sin" can be removed - without the mediations of the Lord Jesus Christ - would be for the individual to die and suffer in Hell until they have paid the "uttermost farthing" - and then they would be cast out into "outer darkness" - because they would be filthy still and unable to abide God's presence.

It is according to the Apostle Paul, do you think he got that wrong?

I know that many people often misinterpret what the Apostle Paul has said - at least according to me.

They often do this by ignoring other things that he has said that contradict their original misinterpretation.

But you said earlier in regards to conflicts of interest between humans and God, that we needed free will. But this doesn't sound much like free will is being respected here.

How is that? We always have a choice.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Im an atheist and according to you im going to be thrown in a prison because I don't agree with God. But not only that, I will be visited by "emissaries" trying to convince me against my so called free will, that I should repent my sins and turn to God.

Yes - anyone who leaves this world without being forgiven of their sins will need to spend time in Prison.

It is not about "agreeing with God" - but rather violating the Law.

People aren't in prison on Earth simply because they disagree with others - but because they have broken the Law.

And their not agreeing with others about the Law would not set them free on Earth - so why would you assume it should do so in the spirit?

Unless - of course - you don't believe in the need for Law and prisons - which is a whole other topic.

And no Being can have free will unless they were enticed by two opposing forces.

This is how I have come to know that Hell sends emissaries to Prison as well - because the Bible claims that those in Prison are preached to by those from Paradise.

If those in Prison were only preached to by spirits from Paradise - there would be no free will - because there would be no choice.

Giving someone only the one option eliminates choice and their free will.

First of all, I don't think I have done anything sinful and in case I don't agree to that, Ill be thrown to hell and be punished until I agree to having done something wrong.

I'm sure there are many current prison inmates on Earth who disagree with the Laws they violated that put them there.

And as I said - only the willfully rebellious - those considered wicked - are sent to Hell.

Hell is about punishment while Prison is about rehabilitation - yet everyone - save those who commit the unpardonable sin - will eventually be forgiven and find a place in God's Kingdom..

Like I said earlier - I'm not expecting you to agree with me.

Why should I care about the illusion of free will, when its clear according to you, that it is not a matter of free will, but rather a question of being forced into slavery?

I'm sorry - but I don't see where your free will in infringed or when you were sold into slavery.

How is my free will, being respected in this setup you have presented?

By you always having a choice?

And there is no way God could have made animals eat different plants or have created more different ones?

Why though? So that only plants would suffer?

And there is not enough space on Earth for all the plants needed to feed all living things.

And again - the overpopulation issue.

As before God couldn't have manage this some other way as well, like making it so animals could only have around one offspring each? Or in case of overpopulation some biological process would prevent them from mating?

So - you want God to take away their freedom of choice - how many offspring they have and when they can have them?

Who say that the animals has to work as they do now and not some other way, if God could simply have designed them the way he wanted?

I am not convinced that God "designed" them per se.

There are mentions of beasts being in councils and living among heavenly Beings in certain books of the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation.

I believe that their form is just as eternal as our own.

But from a rational point of view, does that make a lot of sense, when the slave owner is allowed to beat their slaves senseless if they like, as long as they don't die from it within two days?

Well - as long as they don't die at all from it actually.

And what benefit does beating a slave to senselessness serve anyone? Doesn't that rob the master of the slave's labor for the duration of their recovery?

A master could be charged with murder if they killed their slave - and the Law of Moses commanded that even Israelites be put to death for various sins.

Because it clearly says that slave owners are not allowed to treat hebrew slaves that way, but it doesn't specifically say that this only apply to non hebrew slaves. So wouldn't it make most sense that this rule of running away only apply to hebrew slaves?

You can believe that - but that is not what the Law of Moses states - and it is not how Jews interpret it.

From what the records states - any slave that believes they have been treated unjustly -or for any reason at all - can leave and become a citizen of Israel.

They wouldn't be oppressed - but they would be setting off on their own - which would have been very difficult.

Again - I have to point out that Israel was constantly assaulted by its enemies - and rather than indefinitely keeping prisoners of war or mass executions - Israel was allowed to take their defeated enemies as slaves - and their standards for slave ownership were much more humane than the rest of the world at that time or since.

Well I don't think that is the case. First of all because you can still experience pleasure without an equal amount of pain. Secondly, God's promise humans that there will be no suffering according to Revelation, so clearly it is possible for such place to exist according to God.

No - you misunderstood.

What I meant was that we cannot comprehend pleasure without also being able to comprehend pain.

We cannot know what it means to be and feel happy if we do not also know what it means to be and feel sadness.

There needs to be opposition in all things - or else there is no understanding - there is nothing.

This is the state I believe Adam and Eve lived in before they partook of the Fruit - they knew no happiness because they knew no sadness. They knew no pleasure because they knew no pain.

They could not experience mortal life because they were not subject to physical death.

And before we came into this world - we were just spirits with no physical sensations.

We knew about pleasure and pain - but we had never once experienced them - so we believed that the risk of experiencing suffering was worth the possibility of experiencing pleasure.

The only way we can know and enjoy pleasure - or lack of suffering - in eternity after this life is to first experience it here in mortality.

God could not promise us freedom from suffering if we did not first know suffering.

You did just say that those people will end up in prison and if they don't agree to the terms they are getting thrown in hell.

No - I said that Paradise, Prison and Hell are temporary conditions - where we wait as spirits for the time of our forgiveness, Resurrection and Final Judgment.

Those in Prison can listen to either emissary - those from Paradise or those from Hell - or they can do nothing.

It is their choice.

And I also did not say that they would be "thrown into Hell" - but rather that they would be "converted to Hell" - meaning that they would then try to convince others in Prison to reject the Gospel message given by emissaries from Paradise.

So I don't really think we were getting that choice. Whether that is atheists or religious people of other religions, because that is a sin according to the bible.

The Lord Jesus Christ promised that everyone will be forgiven - save those who commit the unpardonable sin.

Being forgiven - however - is the most basic of blessings offered by the Lord Jesus Christ - and if that is all one receives - there will be a place for them in God's Kingdom - but they will not be able to abide the presence of the Father and the Son.

They will have a measure of joy - but not a fullness - and their potential will one day have an end - because they "dam" themselves.

Either way - if all you want is to have nothing to do with God - you will find a place in His Kingdom - out of His presence - where you will be free to live as you choose according to the Law.

 

[Nimos]

That same could be said of any person though.

If there were no people - then no earthly law would matter and there would be no criminals around to violate the law.

Yet - then there would be no people - no happiness or misery - but nothing.

I don't understand your logic - your solution to avoid possible misery is for people to have not existed in the first place.

My logic is that you said the law was like gravity, a natural law which is enforced by God. So if there is no God then the law would be irrelevant.

The Law is inviolate in its effects and if God did not operate according to the Law for our benefit - we would be forever condemned.

Why would that be the case?

If God / Jesus didn't exists, how would the law condemn us? If I understood you correct it is not sentient?

So how would it be difference between a person murdering someone if God exists and if he didn't, how would the difference be expressed or shown?

No - that is not to what I was referring - and I ask that you be careful - for you are treading upon holy things.

Why would I be careful about that?

I believe that this was when His suffering for our sins began - when He made intercession for us with the Law.

But couldn't God simply not have planted the tree in the garden? or have given Adam and Eve the ability to know right from wrong and then explained them about the law which you speak of?

And why should Jesus suffer at the hands of his father's mistake? Why is it so difficult for God to own up to his own screw ups?

It was no mere "rough weekend" in any terms - it was infinite Hell - and He volunteered for it.

But Jesus is not in hell, not sure where you got that from.

Revelation 22:16-21
16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
17 - The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
18 - I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
19 - and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 - He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
21 - The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

Besides that he starts talking to his disciples after his resurrection.

And He does support us from day to day. He has given us time to change - to work out our salvation. He has given us freedom to choose how to live. He lends us breathe. Causes the sun to shine down on us - and an infinite number of other things.

To me, this is one of the places where these things or religious justifications just completely collapses.

If what you say is true, then it ought to be true for babies that dies during birth as well etc.? Shouldn't parents that experience this, be absolutely thrilled, and obviously a little sad, that their baby were so pure that it didn't need any time to change at all!! God took them straight away and now they are under his protection in heaven. They should be so proud of their baby, right? I really don't get it, if people really believe this, why are religious people so sad about losing people, if they go to heaven, you are going to see them again, if you do what your religion tells you.

I understand atheists parents being devastated from something like this, because they don't believe in an afterlife. What more can religious parents wish for their children than to be with God and Jesus?

Heh. Slaves? What has anyone - God or the Lord Jesus Christ - forced you to do today or any other day?

Well that is not really true is it?

Given im an atheist, I don't give a rats *** about them But people that do believe in it and live in fear of hell, is indirectly a way to make them do things isn't it?

If I said to you, "You can do whatever you want, you want to go there in your car or walk? the choice is yours, you can freely choose. But if you go by car, I will make you burn in hell for eternity... Don't misunderstand me, im not trying to force you?"

How is that? We always have a choice.

As the example above, what a choice?

Yes - anyone who leaves this world without being forgiven of their sins will need to spend time in Prison.

It is not about "agreeing with God" - but rather violating the Law.

Hiding God behind a law seems like a rather weak argument.

Does the law decide how one ought to be punished? If so, did it also create hell? Or could God make the punishment for atheists, to go to the B-section of heaven, equally as good as the A.section or could God create a new Earth for us and put us there?

I'm sure there are many current prison inmates on Earth who disagree with the Laws they violated that put them there.

But that is completely uncompariable. Because we are well aware that mistakes happens in the legal system and that it is not 100% perfect.

But that is not an option for God.

Hell is about punishment while Prison is about rehabilitation - yet everyone - save those who commit the unpardonable sin - will eventually be forgiven and find a place in God's Kingdom..

I don't want to be forgiven, because I don't believe I have done anything wrong. I don't think Adam and Eve did anything wrong. I think God is to blame for having screwed everything up to begin with, so throw him in hell.

I'm sorry - but I don't see where your free will in infringed or when you were sold into slavery.

Im an atheist, which means that my current position is that God doesn't exists. That is ultimately based on my free will, due to the lack of evidence. Yet according to you, when I get thrown to prison, I have to admit I was wrong because I weren't convinced. And I disagree with that, I might be wrong, but the lack of evidence for a God is on my side and therefore I am in my full right to not agree to having done anything wrong. So I don't care to listen to some emissaries trying to convince me that I did something wrong. Again, God could have simply made it more clear. But if I don't admit it, I go to hell as you say. That is not to respect my free will, but to force me into slavery of worshipping God, which I have no intention of doing, even if he exists. If we are to believe the bible, he is simply not worth worshipping, he haven't earned it and don't know why he would want it in the first place.

Why though? So that only plants would suffer?

And there is not enough space on Earth for all the plants needed to feed all living things.

And again - the overpopulation issue.

I don't buy it, are you telling me, that you couldn't imagine some other way God could have done it? Put yourself in his shoes, couldn't you imagine any other way that might be less painful? And also I don't believe that plants suffers anyway as they have no brain.

I am not convinced that God "designed" them per se.

Then the creation story is wrong? or what do you mean that you are not convinced.

Well - as long as they don't die at all from it actually.

And what benefit does beating a slave to senselessness serve anyone? Doesn't that rob the master of the slave's labor for the duration of their recovery?

A master could be charged with murder if they killed their slave - and the Law of Moses commanded that even Israelites be put to death for various sins.

So if they don't die, it's no issue beating another person senseless, because you feel like it?

Do you think its was a good idea that slavery in general is condemned or would you be fine either way? And if you think it's good, then why would you make those arguments, as if its perfectly acceptable to treat other humans like that?

What I meant was that we cannot comprehend pleasure without also being able to comprehend pain.

We cannot know what it means to be and feel happy if we do not also know what it means to be and feel sadness.

Even if that is the case, couldn't you make it 99.99 to 0.01% in favor of pleasure and happiness?

The Lord Jesus Christ promised that everyone will be forgiven - save those who commit the unpardonable sin.

Being forgiven - however - is the most basic of blessings offered by the Lord Jesus Christ - and if that is all one receives - there will be a place for them in God's Kingdom - but they will not be able to abide the presence of the Father and the Son.

They will have a measure of joy - but not a fullness - and their potential will one day have an end - because they "dam" themselves.

Either way - if all you want is to have nothing to do with God - you will find a place in His Kingdom - out of His presence - where you will be free to live as you choose according to the Law.

Even if that is the case, it makes no difference. Hell or being treated slightly less good than everyone else, its the principle that is wrong. And if everyone end up being forgiven and living, well anyway, what the point of prison and hell? throw people in their rightful places and let them choose for themselves, wouldn't that be much better? So no punishment or brainwashing from emissaries, people simply using their free will to chose what they want under the same rules.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

You're absolutely wrong about what was written due to your misunderstanding of the passage. The slaves mentioned here are referring to foreign slaves from another country. It's not talking about the foreign slaves owned by Israelites.

There are indicators as the passage is referring to foreign slaves from another country only. The laws of Deuteronomy are aim towards all Israelites as a whole and/or nation, and not individual Israelites. Next, it says that the if foreign slaves come to live with Israelites and can choose to live in whatever Israelite city. It wouldn't make sense if the slaves were already living with Israelites in their country. Those people should not automatically be treated as slaves, instead, they should be treated as immigrants. And those people should not be oppressed as immigrants. It, however says nothing about later on, those particular people should not become slaves to Israelites nor be oppressed once they have become slaves to Israelites.

This passage does give Israelites an easier way of getting their slaves. Instead of travel expenses to go abroad buy slaves, Israelites can use those expenses to buy more immigrant slaves from their own country.

I don't see where it claims that this is a reference to only foreign slaves and foreign slave-owners.

What laws? If the same laws exist with or without a supposed lawmaker, then are the laws actually dependent on the supposed lawmaker existing?

Natural laws exist and are not dependent on anyone.

Think of these eternal Laws in that light.

 

[night912]

I don't see where it claims that this is a reference to only foreign slaves and foreign slave-owners.

Then read what I posted and addressed the points that I made.

Natural laws exist and are not dependent on anyone.

Think of these eternal Laws in that light.

Then you have contradicted yourself. According to you earlier, the laws are dependent on someone in order to have any effect on us. First, it's dependent on us to being aware of the laws for it to have any effect on us. And second, it's also dependent on Jesus judging us in order for the laws to have any effect on us.

(Posted below)

Because - according to this "Law of Morality" - if a creature is unaware of the Law - it is possible for them to avoid its effects.

Also, if God doesn't exist, then Jesus would also not exist. Since there's no judge to pass judgment on us, the laws have no effect on us. So no punishment for us, let alone instant punishment like what you said.

This is a great distinction and I want to clarify that I believe that it is the Lord Jesus Christ - not God the Father - who is our Judge.

You said it yourself that the laws are not sentient. And since the "laws of morality" are not physical laws, they have no effect on us.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Gravity: Physical Law
The effects of this has physical punishments/effects on us. If I jump off a building, the effect would be physical injuries or death. There's no need for a judge to pass judgment on us because it deals with the physical world.

Morality: Non Physical Law
There's a law that says, "don't murder." This law has no effect on me if I was to violate it and there was no cops and/or a judge in existence. In order for me to receive punishment for violating the law, a sentient judge must exist.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Then read what I posted and addressed the points that I made.

You mean the claim you made about "indicators" that you never supplied evidence for?

Then you have contradicted yourself. According to you earlier, the laws are dependent on someone in order to have any effect on us. First, it's dependent on us to being aware of the laws for it to have any effect on us. And second, it's also dependent on Jesus judging us in order for the laws to have any effect on us.

I'm glad you picked up on that.

While we are in mortality - with its conditions of doubt and being bound by Time - we are in a "probationary state".

During our time here the effects of the Law are not negated or nullified - but suspended - until the time of our Final Judgment.

This was made possible through the Atoning Sacrifice of the Son of God.

Since His Sacrifice had been promised by God - who cannot lie - He had been considered - by the Law - to have been "slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8)

Basically - the Law - or rather the punishments affixed to the violations of the Law - had already been justly paid by the Lord Jesus Christ - even before He actually paid them.

Sort of like a cosmic I.O.U. - which the Universe knew He was good for.

Therefore - because the bill had already been paid by the Lord - He was free set the terms for how we were to reimburse Him.

Therefore - He gave unto us a space to live freely and a time to prepare - to do what we could to fulfill our end of the covenant.

Some of the terms He set included those who lived and died without knowledge of the Law - that they would have the opportunity after physical death to learn of it and the gift He has given them.

Another was for those who lived in innocence - not being accountable for their actions - such as young children or the mentally impaired - they are those who need pay no price - and are admitted into the arms of the Father.

The Lord Jesus Christ - as our Judge - does not enforce the Law - He mitigates it. As Judge - He is looking to justly and fairly defend us - to plead for us.

If we were not in mortality - we would not have passed through the veil of forgetfulness - therefore we would be completely aware of the Law and its effects.

Ignorance is a blessing of mortality.

So - just like how Gravity is not dependent on anyone - there are some things we can do with technology and such to mitigate its effects - to some degree and only temporarily.

Think of mortality as one of those rooms that NASA has - where astronauts can train in low gravity - to prepare them for outer space.

This is the only time in our eternal existence where we are bound by Time and where we are not aware of the truth of the Universe.

(Posted below)

Notice that I said that it was "possible" for a creature to avoid the effects of the Law when they are unaware of the Law - it is not a guarantee - and it is only through the merits and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, if God doesn't exist, then Jesus would also not exist.

Correct.

Since there's no judge to pass judgment on us, the laws have no effect on us.

I disagree - the Lord Jesus Christ is our Judge - but He is also our Advocate and our Mediator - because He is doing everything He can to help us avoid the punishments of the Law.

Since - as our Judge - there is no point in Him "proving" our guilt - since we are all guilty of sin - what then is He judging?

He is judging our worth. Judging if we have kept our end of the covenant. Judging if we have done what He has asked us to do.

And if He judges us to be sufficient - the Law has no claim on us - because He paid the price for us already - and we will be forgiven.

And if He judges us to be insufficient - then we must first pay the price for our sins - accept the punishment of the Law before we will be forgiven.

So no punishment for us, let alone instant punishment like what you said.

The "instant punishment" thing was only in the event that there was no God - which is impossible - and even if it were possible - we would never have existed in the first place.

I was trying to paint a picture of the Universe and its Laws without God - and despite it being impossible - it is ugly and bleak.

If we did not currently live in doubt and Time - we would have no defense before the Law - for we would know the Law in its fulness and we would have no time to prepare to live by it.

You said it yourself that the laws are not sentient. And since the "laws of morality" are not physical laws, they have no effect on us.

The effects of the Law are mostly suspended while we sojourn in mortality - according to the covenant establish between us and the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are some effects of the Law - like feeling love toward your mother or guilt for committing sin - that we do experience every day.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Gravity: Physical Law
The effects of this has physical punishments/effects on us. If I jump off a building, the effect would be physical injuries or death. There's no need for a judge to pass judgment on us because it deals with the physical world.

Morality: Non Physical Law
There's a law that says, "don't murder." This law has no effect on me if I was to violate it and there was no cops and/or a judge in existence. In order for me to receive punishment for violating the law, a sentient judge must exist.

We have means of temporarily mitigating the effects of gravity - even though we need no judge.

While we are in mortality - the effects of the Law are mostly suspended - and our time here was given to us to prepare - and God has given us commandments and instruction in His efforts to help us prepare.

If we do all that is required of us - we will excel and eventually be perfected and become as He is.

If we do not do all that is required of us - there will be a place for us in His Kingdom - but we will not know a fulness.

If we reject everything that is required of us - there will be no place for us in His Kingdom.

And - just so you know - not believing in God is not what I mean by "rejecting everything that is required of us" - I mean rejecting all good things - becoming rebellious and evil.

There won't be many of those.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

My logic is that you said the law was like gravity, a natural law which is enforced by God. So if there is no God then the law would be irrelevant.

I believe that this is a misconception about God and I thought I tackled this before.

I do not believe that God "micromanages" the Universe - but that the effects of the Law or Laws - which include the natural laws that we have discovered so far - are inviolate.

God abides by them - and uses them - to complete His work.

So Gravity is going to exist and do what it does - no matter what God decides to do - but He uses Gravity - it is a part of His Creative process.

And His Creations - depending on their mass and speed - will be effected by Gravity differently.

I do not believe that He enforces the Laws.

Why would that be the case?

If God / Jesus didn't exists, how would the law condemn us? If I understood you correct it is not sentient?

Correct - the Law is not sentient.

Besides the fact that if God did not exist - then we would not - God and the Lord Jesus Christ have given us freewill, accountability, Time and the ability to repent (change).

Without these - and I'm sure countless other conditions of mortality that I am not even aware of - we would immediately be condemned because we are not perfect Beings.

So - if God did not exist - there would be no freewill - for He would not have given us opposites - light and darkness - to choose from.

Also - He has given us Knowledge of the Law - which in the most simplified rendering is Good and Evil - without which we cannot live according to Law.

Without Time - we would have no "probation" or "grace period" - when we could make mistakes - violations of Law.

Finally - we would be unable to change our nature - to effect any changes.

All of these things were made possible for us through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So - without these things - we would exist (somehow) outside of Time - so no "grace period/probation" to suspend the effects of the Law - we would have no Knowledge of the Law - we would have no ability or time to change our nature/behavior to conform with the Law - and there would be literally no choice.

Basically - God's Plan is like jumping out of a plane with a parachute.

Even though we are still falling - the parachute slows us down - we have time to prepare for the end - so rather than go splat! - we can mitigate the effects of the fall - brace ourselves and land without injury or death - as long as we follow the proper instructions.

Without God - the moment we somehow *poofed* into existence - we would plummet - not understanding or comprehending anything that is happening and immediately die. No choice.

But in terms of Universal and Cosmic Law - we would immediately violate the Law and be forced to endure the consequences of it and be banished outside of the Organized Space - which is outer darkness.

Not having God is like having a baby and just leaving it in the wild to fend for itself - all the laws of nature are going to effect the exposed newborn - and all those effects will be immediate - it will have no chance of survival.

So how would it be difference between a person murdering someone if God exists and if he didn't, how would the difference be expressed or shown?

Assuming - because it is "murder" that this example exists in mortality (which is a condition that is impossible without God) - the murderer would instantly die - suffer the full punishments of the Law - and be banished to outer darkness.

And the person that he/she murdered would also be in outer darkness - that is the only destination without God.

Why would I be careful about that?

Other than my asking you to be?

I don't know - I've been pretty chill with you - I haven't been calling plagues down on you or talking about your mom or anything you might consider "sacred".

But couldn't God simply not have planted the tree in the garden?

No - God planted both the Trees of Life and Knowledge of Good and Evil to give Adam and Eve freewill - they needed opposites to choose from.

Without the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil - mortality never would have began and I believe that none of us would have ever been born.

Adam and Eve would be the only two people on Earth in the Garden - without Knowledge of Good and Evil and the conditions of mortality to this very day - and forever.

Producing and accomplishing nothing.

or have given Adam and Eve the ability to know right from wrong and then explained them about the law which you speak of?

I do not believe that would have been a Lawful action on God's part.

When God created Adam and Eve - He gave them knowledge of many things - I mean, they knew how to talk right? and gardening and stuff? - but giving them a knowledge of Good and Evil would have been forcing a negative condition upon them - which I believe would have been Unlawful.

He made them innocent and perfect physically - a perfect Being and perfect Creations according to Law - and gave them the ability to choose for themselves - by planting both of those Trees.

And why should Jesus suffer at the hands of his father's mistake?

I do not believe that God made a mistake.

I believe that He always planned on Adam and Eve to partake of the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The scriptures claim that the Lord Jesus Christ was a sacrifice slain since before the foundations of the Earth were laid.

This implies that God had always planned on the Lord Jesus Christ suffering and dying on our behalf.

It was not some last ditch effort to save us - because it had been planned long before Adam and Eve had been created and had partaken of the fruit.

Why is it so difficult for God to own up to his own screw ups?

I believe that this is a misconception had by many Christians.

But Jesus is not in hell, not sure where you got that from.

Revelation 22:16-21
16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
17 - The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
18 - I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
19 - and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 - He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
21 - The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

Besides that he starts talking to his disciples after his resurrection.

You misunderstood my meaning and explanation of Hell.

I do not believe that Hell is a place but rather a condition.

Hell is what the spirits of the willfully rebellious experience - a suffering for their own sins - while they await the time of their Resurrection.

It is unimaginable suffering that has been described as torture of fire and brimstone.

In the Garden of Gethsemane and upon the cross I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ suffered these pains of Hell - not for His own sins - because He never once committed sin - but for each individual creature.

I believe that He suffered the pains of Hell for every individual - past, present and future - all the Creations of God - and that this suffering may have even included Creations from all other worlds.

Us suffering for our own individual sins has been described as unimaginable pain - so imagine volunteering to suffer the unimaginable pains for all creatures in existence?

That is infinite suffering. Infinite Hell.

So - no - I was not claiming that He is currently in Hell - His suffering is at an end - He finished it before He died on the cross - but the amount of suffering He experienced was infinite in the sense that it was on behalf of an uncountable number of individuals.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

To me, this is one of the places where these things or religious justifications just completely collapses.

If what you say is true, then it ought to be true for babies that dies during birth as well etc.? Shouldn't parents that experience this, be absolutely thrilled, and obviously a little sad, that their baby were so pure that it didn't need any time to change at all!! God took them straight away and now they are under his protection in heaven. They should be so proud of their baby, right? I really don't get it, if people really believe this, why are religious people so sad about losing people, if they go to heaven, you are going to see them again, if you do what your religion tells you.

I understand atheists parents being devastated from something like this, because they don't believe in an afterlife. What more can religious parents wish for their children than to be with God and Jesus?

Wait - atheists are only sad when their children die because they don't believe in an afterlife? That's the only reason?

When my son died - I was grief stricken - not because I feared for his soul - but because I had expectations.

I had imagined an entire life with him. He was to be a constant. I was going to teach him things and he was going to bring me so much joy.

But we didn't have that time. Time and experiences I thought I was going to have were never had.

We have since had three other children - all boys - but we still hang a stocking for Jacob on Christmas and celebrate his birthday.

I am comforted knowing that he was pure and innocent and went to the Father - but I will always want that time with him.

I honestly believe that time will come.

Well that is not really true is it?

Given im an atheist, I don't give a rats *** about them But people that do believe in it and live in fear of hell, is indirectly a way to make them do things isn't it?

Doesn't this prove that you are not a slave?

If I said to you, "You can do whatever you want, you want to go there in your car or walk? the choice is yours, you can freely choose. But if you go by car, I will make you burn in hell for eternity... Don't misunderstand me, im not trying to force you?"

This is another popular misconception about God - according to me anyways.

God does not place the conditions of Hell upon us - we do that to ourselves - because we violate the Law.

Without God - there would be no Paradise or Prison for anyone that dies - only the pains of Hell.

So - it is more like He is trying to teach us how to drive a car and the traffic law.

And then He says, "You are free to go where you will - but if you want to avoid crashing and getting hurt - do as I instructed you to. Be responsible."

Hiding God behind a law seems like a rather weak argument.

I do not believe I am doing that.

God is perfect - therefore logically there must some some metric - some standard - by which perfection is measured - thus the Law.

Does the law decide how one ought to be punished?

Yes and No.

Yes - for according to Law there is only the one punishment - suffering for one's violations and banishment to outer darkness.

No - the Law does not decide - it is a natural thing - like jumping out of a plane - you are going to fall and go splat! - Gravity didn't make any decision about it.

If so, did it also create hell?

As I said - Hell is the state of willfully rebellious spirit - a temporary condition.

It is not a "creation" - but a condition.

Or could God make the punishment for atheists, to go to the B-section of heaven, equally as good as the A.section or could God create a new Earth for us and put us there?

I don't know anything definite - but my impression is that any of God's children who don't want anything to do with Him will find a place to spend eternity that they will enjoy.

They will never fulfill their potential - but they will find contentment.

They will have no authority - but they will find things to do that bring them a modicum of joy.

They will not have an increase - for they will be alone and uncoupled.

But that is completely uncompariable. Because we are well aware that mistakes happens in the legal system and that it is not 100% perfect.

Yes - but that is irrelevant - innocent or guilty - no inmate wants to be in prison and they are going to bemoan the Law and the system regardless.

But that is not an option for God.

Exactly - God cannot get it wrong - can't you take comfort in that?

God knows who is guilty (all of us) and who is worthy of mercy (all of us).

We are all guilty and we are all going to receive mercy.

I don't want to be forgiven, because I don't believe I have done anything wrong.

So - you believe that you are a perfect Being?

I don't think Adam and Eve did anything wrong.

Agreed.

I think God is to blame for having screwed everything up to begin with, so throw him in hell.

But - nothing was "screwed up" - so why blame Him at all?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Im an atheist, which means that my current position is that God doesn't exists. That is ultimately based on my free will, due to the lack of evidence. Yet according to you, when I get thrown to prison, I have to admit I was wrong because I weren't convinced. And I disagree with that, I might be wrong, but the lack of evidence for a God is on my side and therefore I am in my full right to not agree to having done anything wrong. So I don't care to listen to some emissaries trying to convince me that I did something wrong. Again, God could have simply made it more clear. But if I don't admit it, I go to hell as you say. That is not to respect my free will, but to force me into slavery of worshipping God, which I have no intention of doing, even if he exists. If we are to believe the bible, he is simply not worth worshipping, he haven't earned it and don't know why he would want it in the first place.

Again - I believe these are common misconceptions.

If God were to "make things more clear" as you say - then He eliminates your ability to choose. You'd have no freewill.

If God appeared to you right now and told you that everything I was saying was correct - what choice would you have?

And - from then on - the moment you violated the Law (committed sin) - you would have no justification - because you had a perfect knowledge of God and the Law - so mercy could have no claim on you.

You would be defenseless.

It is our doubt, faith and hope that allow us to be forgiven.

Also - lack of evidence is not evidence of lack - so that is not something "on your side".

I also never claimed that you would go to Hell if you rejected the emissaries from Paradise.

You said something like that before - and I corrected you - but you are still making that false claim.

You don't have to do anything in Prison if you don't want to - and just await the time of your Resurrection.

You are free to do nothing. You are free to repent. You are free to sin. You are free.

I don't buy it, are you telling me, that you couldn't imagine some other way God could have done it?

No - not without violating Law or sabotaging the reasons for why we came into mortality.

Put yourself in his shoes, couldn't you imagine any other way that might be less painful?

There is nothing inherently wrong with pain - and I say this as a man who is in constant pain - a neurological condition - don't ask.

We need to know pain in order to know pleasure.

And yes - pain sucks - but those moments where there is no pain - as fleeting as they are - are blissful.

And the time will come when there will be no more pain.

And also I don't believe that plants suffers anyway as they have no brain.

I have come to learn that they have Intelligence and have spirits.

Then the creation story is wrong? or what do you mean that you are not convinced.

I believe that God Created the Earth and everything on it - but I am not convinced that He designed everything.

I believe that our design - the design of human beings - was modeled after Him - literally.

We look like Him.

And I have become convinced that other creatures were modeled after other celestial Beings.

So if they don't die, it's no issue beating another person senseless, because you feel like it?

Who said "because they feel like it"?

Physical punishment was a part of the Law of Moses.

Israelite men were beaten for violating certain Laws. Israelite women were beaten for violating certain Laws. Even children could have been beaten for violating certain Laws.

The Law of Moses was "added" to the Gospel law - and was described as a "harsh taskmaster".

It is akin to extra rules and punishment that parents heap upon their own children - in addition to the laws of the land.

A parent might slap the hand of a child who spills their food everywhere - for example.

Considering that no one in the Law of Moses was above getting slapped around a little - why do you believe that slaves should be spared punishments if they violate the Law or the will of their master?

Do you think its was a good idea that slavery in general is condemned or would you be fine either way?

I find this to be a stupid question.

I do not believe that God wants His children to live in slavery - but He often makes allowances for the times and places His children live in.

Abraham - for example - lived among peoples who did not believe in God as he did - the Egyptians, Canaanites and Amalekites - for his whole life.

Moses lived as a prince in Egypt where he married an Ethiopian woman and he killed a man.

The Lord Jesus Christ taught us to agree with our adversaries quickly and He taught the parable of the unjust judge - He basically asked His followers to make friends and align with people - even if they aren't good people.

God does not want us simply to be good - but to survive.

If slavery had been outlawed in ancient Israel - they would not have made it as a nation - all their records would have been destroyed - and all of God's promises would have never come to pass.

And if you think it's good, then why would you make those arguments, as if its perfectly acceptable to treat other humans like that?

Ask the slave who had been sold because he couldn't pay his debts if he would prefer prison?

Ask the slave who had been captured as a prisoner of war if he would prefer death?

The Israelites were governed by a strict Law - which forbade them from abusing their slaves.

The slaves were no more or less punished than any other Israelite from what I can tell.

Even if that is the case, couldn't you make it 99.99 to 0.01% in favor of pleasure and happiness?

Wouldn't that ratio be up for the individual to decide? Within reason?

You want God to force people to experience pleasure 99.99% of their time of Earth?

I don't think that would be moral - and how would anything get done?

Even if that is the case, it makes no difference. Hell or being treated slightly less good than everyone else, its the principle that is wrong.

How so?

Children who break the rules get punished - yet at the end of the day they still sit and eat with their brothers and sisters - they are still members of the family - what's wrong with that?

And if everyone end up being forgiven and living, well anyway, what the point of prison and hell?

What is the point of having "House Rules" if there are no punishments for violations to the rules?

throw people in their rightful places and let them choose for themselves, wouldn't that be much better?

That's literally what we are experiencing right now.

We have been given time in our "rightful place" where we can choose for ourselves.

So no punishment or brainwashing from emissaries, people simply using their free will to chose what they want under the same rules.

There is no freewill without opposition in all things.

If there is no punishment - there is no Law and Order.

If there are no teachers - we won't learn anything.

I believe you have been led by so many misconceptions had by various Christians - it's no wonder you are an atheist.