Can God be reasoned with?

[Vadergirl123]

Proof would be direct perception - something that impinges on the senses.

Yes I know what it is, but I'm asking what type of proof YOU'D want. What would convince YOU that he exists??

YOU say his word is the Bible. Muslims say his word is the Quran. Hindus say his word is the Veda, etc.

The hindu gods and Muslim god aren't the same as the God of the bible

Can I for instance tell your God this on the Day of Judgement:

Sure you could, you can tell him whatever you want. but he'd just say those religions aren't talking about him.

 

[robo]

Personally, I believe the laws of logic originate from God and are evidence of His existence. So no, I don’t think He wants us to set reason and logic aside, nor I think the first-cause argument has been fully refuted.

Everyone is supposed to know that the first-cause argument has not been fully refuted [as per you. I believe the argument has been quite thoroughly discredited, but that is for another thread] and based on this, supposed to believe in the Christian God?

But why does the first-cause argument establish the Christian God...why not Allah or Shiva?

 

[Vadergirl123]

I think God would say.......I don't care if you believed in me. Lets talk about your heart and how you lead your life.

Jehovah cares very much if people believes in him or not( you can read over the old testament)

 

[robo]

Sure you could, you can tell him whatever you want. but he'd just say those religions aren't talking about him.

You completely miss the point.

Are Muslims/Hindus reasonable in their faith in Islam/Hinduism?

If they are not, please prove that Christian belief is more reasonable than Islam or Hinduism.

 

[Vadergirl123]

You completely miss the point.
Are Muslims/Hindus reasonable in their faith in Islam/Hinduism?

Yes they're reasonable, but just because something's reasonable doesn't make it true. And you didn't say what type of proof would convince you God exists?

 

[robo]

Yes they're reasonable, but just because something's reasonable doesn't make it true.

I never claimed that. My point was what would Jehovah do if I told him that I did not believe in him, but believe in Allah because I found the Quran more reasonable than the Bible. Would he still punish me?

And you didn't say what type of proof would convince you God exists?

I would say direct perception. But that is immaterial at this point. God is omnipotent. He just needs to convince me - he can use direct perception, coming in my dreams, logic, inference, Near Death Experience, etc. etc. The burden of proof is on God's omnipotent self.

 

[Bob Dixon]

The hindu gods and Muslim god aren't the same as the God of the bible

Sure you could, you can tell him whatever you want. but he'd just say those religions aren't talking about him.

I would argue otherwise. I would say that there is only one God, and He is talked about at length in the Vedas, the Gathas, the Bible, the Gospels, the Qur'an, the Guru Granth Sahib, etc.

Jehovah cares very much if people believes in him or not( you can read over the old testament)

Awesome! The Hebrew Bible!
Listen, darling, all that proves is that YHVH cares about Jewish people believing in Him. YHVH never actually goes out to convert non-Jews in the HB.
In the Gospels, Jesus himself refuses to heal a Syro-Phoenician woman until she logically and reasonably convinces him to help her out, telling her that he felt himself sent to the Jews only. The first time Gentiles actually come into play, really, is in the fake ending of Mark. And Paul's writings.

 

[Vadergirl123]

I never claimed that. My point was what would Jehovah do if I told him that I did not believe in him, but believe in Allah because I found the Quran more reasonable than the Bible. Would he still punish me?

Yeah, you don't get to heaven based on being as reasonable as possible

I would say direct perception. But that is immaterial at this point. God is omnipotent. He just needs to convince me - he can use direct perception, coming in my dreams, logic, inference, Near Death Experience, etc. etc. The burden of proof is on God's omnipotent self.

.So if you had a dream about God you'd believe in him?? Or if you got in a car crash and nearly died, or even had soem guy come tell you he was sent from God?? Are you sure you would? My point is there's NOTHING that would convince you he exists. Because regardless of whatever he did you'd simply find a reason why it doesn't "prove" anything.

 

[InChrist]

Everyone is supposed to know that the first-cause argument has not been fully refuted [as per you. I believe the argument has been quite thoroughly discredited, but that is for another thread] and based on this, supposed to believe in the Christian God?

But why does the first-cause argument establish the Christian God...why not Allah or Shiva?

Because the biblical scriptures present a worldview and reveal a Creator which most reasonably explains the laws we see in place in the universe, including the laws of logic. These scriptures claim to be the revelation and word of God to humanity. The Bible is based in history, not in the subjective experience of one individual. About forty different men from various backgrounds wrote the Bible over a period of 1,600 years. It is backed by objective, historical events experienced by thousands of individuals. And many of its places, events, and people can be verified by history. This historical evidence along with prophetic and archeological evidence and eye-witness accounts should be enough for anyone who is truly interested in knowing the truth about God, but most people just write it off because they don't want to believe or know about God.

On the other hand , the Koran which provides information about Allah is based on the subjective experience of one individual, Muhammad, and is not supported by historical or other evidence outside the mind of this one person and the visions he had. There are too many logical inconsistencies (which I don't have time to get into now) within Hinduism to rationally believe that Shiva is a god to even remotely consider as the Creator one must give an account to.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Awesome! The Hebrew Bible!
Listen, darling, all that proves is that YHVH cares about Jewish people believing in Him. YHVH never actually goes out to convert non-Jews in the HB.
In the Gospels, Jesus himself refuses to heal a Syro-Phoenician woman until she logically and reasonably convinces him to help her out, telling her that he felt himself sent to the Jews only. The first time Gentiles actually come into play, really, is in the fake ending of Mark. And Paul's writings.

Why do you believe Paul's writings are fake? They're a part of the bible too. Could I have a reference for the Phoenician woman?

 

[F0uad]

On the other hand , the Koran which provides information about Allah is based on the subjective experience of one individual, Muhammad, and is not supported by historical or other evidence outside the mind of this one person and the visions he had.

are you serious?

 

[George-ananda]

Jehovah cares very much if people believes in him or not( you can read over the old testament)

Well the old testament writers believed in dualism (God is separate from creation). I believe in non-dualism (all is God) and our goal is to self-realize that fact.

Consequently, to say I don't believe in God isn't even a sensible statement to a non-dualist. My point to the OP is that we are not judged by God on our position on challenging intellectual topics but on the quality of our hearts and lives.

I believe non-dualism is an evolutionary step forward from dualism (which is a simpler and still valid way of understanding). When dualism is placed under a magnifying glass there are some logical problems of the type RF'ers like to point out thread after thread after.....

 

[Bob Dixon]

Why do you believe Paul's writings are fake? They're a part of the bible too. Could I have a reference for the Phoenician woman?

I don't think Paul's teachings correspond exactly to Jesus'. They may be a part of the Bible, according to Paulinists, but I don't really think so.

Mark 7:24-30 and Matthew 15:21-28 is what you're looking for.

 

[Twilight Hue]

My point is there's NOTHING that would convince you he exists. Because regardless of whatever he did you'd simply find a reason why it doesn't "prove" anything.

I agree here 100% with you Vadergirl. This would actually require an act of God. Proclaimed liaisons or representations just don't cut the mustard for a good lot of us.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

If you believe in a concept of god which is changeless (or 'timeless') then reasoning (which involves communicating with and having the capacity to affect change in the attitudes or intentions of others) is not possible, because that involves a change (which is also prohibited by a 'timeless' existence, because change incorporates at least two distinct states, before change and after change). This is even more prominent when one incorporates characteristics of infallibility or of omniscience.

That is of course, provided you believe that simple logical examination can be performed in the abstract about such an existence.

Mind you, we see in some fables of religions with supposedly infallible, omniscient, timeless gods where that god changes their mind.... one such example would be in the Abrahamic tradition, in Exodus 3214 i think) where God changes his mind from his previous intention to kill everyone for dancing around a statue - at least if we are to use a literal interpretation to decide to spare them.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Yeah, you don't get to heaven based on being as reasonable as possible

Would you not say that you were being as reasonable as possible when you concluded that God exists?

So if you had a dream about God you'd believe in him?? Or if you got in a car crash and nearly died, or even had soem guy come tell you he was sent from God?? Are you sure you would? My point is there's NOTHING that would convince you he exists. Because regardless of whatever he did you'd simply find a reason why it doesn't "prove" anything.

You don't know that.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Would you not say that you were being as reasonable as possible when you concluded that God exists?

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe in God, but believing that a god exits doesn't get me to heaven.

You don't know that.

You are right I don't know for sure, however would there be anything that you can think of that would "prove" to someone God exists?

 

[robo]

Because the biblical scriptures present a worldview and reveal a Creator which most reasonably explains the laws we see in place in the universe, including the laws of logic. These scriptures claim to be the revelation and word of God to humanity. The Bible is based in history, not in the subjective experience of one individual. About forty different men from various backgrounds wrote the Bible over a period of 1,600 years. It is backed by objective, historical events experienced by thousands of individuals. And many of its places, events, and people can be verified by history. This historical evidence along with prophetic and archeological evidence and eye-witness accounts should be enough for anyone who is truly interested in knowing the truth about God, but most people just write it off because they don't want to believe or know about God.

But I do not find any Biblical account of anything remotely reasonable/believeable. Can I tell your God this? Can I tell your God that the Quran or Bhagavad Gita made more sense to me? Remember, it is I who makes the decision of what makes sense to me. Either your God should not have allowed the Quran or the Gita to be available to humans OR he should patiently listen to me when I say I found the Bible completely meaningless as compared to the Quran/Gita.

On the other hand , the Koran which provides information about Allah is based on the subjective experience of one individual, Muhammad, and is not supported by historical or other evidence outside the mind of this one person and the visions he had. There are too many logical inconsistencies (which I don't have time to get into now) within Hinduism to rationally believe that Shiva is a god to even remotely consider as the Creator one must give an account to.

Islam and Hinduism are just as believeable or as unbelieveable as Christianity. Because you are Christian, you are unable to believe so. Just as how a Muslim will find the Quran the greatest piece of literature ever, etc.

An unaffiliated skeptic will find all religions equally baseless and equally unsupported by evidence.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe in God, but believing that a god exits doesn't get me to heaven.

I didn't suggest that believing in God is unreasonable. My point is, you told robo that being reasonable won't get him into heaven. This suggests to me that you don't think reason and logic will sway God yet I'm sure you would say you used reason and logic to arrive at your beliefs. Am I wrong?

You are right I don't know for sure, however would there be anything that you can think of that would "prove" to someone God exists?

Speaking for myself, it would have to be something that absolutely could not be attributed to some natural phenomenon. So far I haven't seen anything like that.

 

[Road Warrior]

eternal hellfire

An all merciful God wouldn't condemn anyone to "eternal hellfire".