Can Good Christians Be Capitalists?

[Saint Frankenstein]

Communism is surrendering your riches to the government, not to the poor. The parable of the Talents supports a capitalistic attitude. Riches and talents have metaphorical meaning as well as monetary meaning. Now, a lot of people wants Jesus' commandment to feed the poor...to mean...give your money to the government so the government will feed the poor. But I don't think that is what Jesus meant. To think it is the government's job to feed the poor is a bit like "washing your hands of it"...and that rings another scriptural bell of someone who washed their hands of it.

You're thinking of certain forms of socialism, not communism. In communism, the people voluntarily share their wealth with each other., especially in anarcho-communism and religious communism. The early Christians lived as communists: https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/el1/apostoliccommunism.html , and monastic communities often practice a sort of communism.

So not only do you misunderstand what communism is, but you also are resorting to taking a parable at face value (when they're meant to teach a deeper meaning; however you set up a metaphor doesn't mean you support what's taking place in the set up!), when everything Christ had to say about wealth was to give it up and to share with those less fortunate.

 

[BSM1]

You're thinking of certain forms of socialism, not communism. In communism, the people voluntarily share their wealth with each other., especially in anarcho-communism and religious communism. The early Christians lived as communists: https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/el1/apostoliccommunism.html , and monastic communities often practice a sort of communism.

So not only do you misunderstand what communism is, but you also are resorting to taking a parable at face value (when they're meant to teach a deeper meaning; however you set up a metaphor doesn't mean you support what's taking place in the set up!), when everything Christ had to say about wealth was to give it up and to share with those less fortunate.

Not to put to fine a point on it, but early Christians may have lived communally but I doubt if they could be called Communists. By definition to be truly Communists they would have had to worship the State and not something higher than the State.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Not to put to fine a point on it, but early Christians may have lived communally but I doubt if they could be called Communists. By definition to be truly Communists they would have had to worship the State and not something higher than the State.

Communism existed before Marx and Lenin. No Marxist-Leninist state actually achieved communism. A "communist state" is an oxymoron, anyway, since there is no state in communism.

 

[chlotilde]

You're thinking of certain forms of socialism, not communism. In communism, the people voluntarily share their wealth with each other., especially in anarcho-communism and religious communism. The early Christians lived as communists: https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/el1/apostoliccommunism.html , and monastic communities often practice a sort of communism.

So not only do you misunderstand what communism is, but you also are resorting to taking a parable at face value (when they're meant to teach a deeper meaning; however you set up a metaphor doesn't mean you support what's taking place in the set up!), when everything Christ had to say about wealth was to give it up and to share with those less fortunate.

I am speaking modern society. You are correct in "true" communism, if that "I" is equivalent to "government". In a tribal community, governing power can be equal. But we don't live in tribal societies, and with today's population, it would be something very hard to do. Being that Jesus knew we would always have our poor (one can hardly believe in evolution without accepting there are haves and have nots in this world), he knew true equality is something that can only happen in some God world-like heaven, we can only try our best here on earth.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am speaking modern society. You are correct in "true" communism, if that "I" is equivalent to "government". In a tribal community, governing power can be equal. But we don't live in tribal societies, and with today's population, it would be something very hard to do. Being that Jesus knew we would always have our poor (one can hardly believe in evolution without accepting there are haves and have nots in this world), he knew true equality is something that can only happen in some God world-like heaven, we can only try our best here on earth.

Yes, we can only do our best. Humans will likely never create some sort of utopia on earth, because we are flawed. But we should try our best to love and care for each other, and free market capitalism has proven not to be the best vehicle to do it through. On a national stage, a mixed economy that leans towards democratic socialism seems to do better. Communism is more suited towards smaller groups - tribes of a sort or communes. It has to be voluntary or it won't work. Most people aren't at that place yet. But we can work towards economic justice on a national stage.

 

[chlotilde]

Yes, we can only do our best. Humans will likely never create some sort of utopia on earth, because we are flawed. But we should try our best to love and care for each other, and free market capitalism has proven not to be the best vehicle to do it through. On a national stage, a mixed economy that leans towards democratic socialism seems to do better. Communism is more suited towards smaller groups - tribes of a sort or communes. It has to be voluntary or it won't work. Most people aren't at that place yet. But we can work towards economic justice on a national stage.

What a dichotomy you propose to me Frankie,
Let me ask you this about markets, since we are no longer an agrarian society and can't produce what we need by ourselves alone, we need markets. What do you see as unfair in free markets, and fair in closed markets? My personal opinion here is, how can a nation like the US share its wealth with poorer nations (besides just outright handing them the money) unless we keep trade with them as burdenless as possible.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What a dichotomy you propose to me Frankie,
Let me ask you this about markets, since we are no longer an agrarian society and can produce what we need by ourselves alone, we need markets. What do you see as unfair in free markets, and fair in closed markets? My personal opinion here is, how can a nation like the US share it's wealth with poorer nations (besides just outright handing them the money) unless we keep trade with them as burdenless as possible.

I'm not proposing a closed market. When I refer to "free market", I'm referring to the idea that the government shouldn't be interfering with or regulating the economy at all. The right-wing libertarian/Austrian School idea of a "free market". Rand-ite sort of silliness and inhumanity. I propose fair trade over free trade. The Scandinavian approach is closer to what I'm proposing in this era of globalism and nation-states. Make things as fair as we can, reduce exploitation as much as we can, punish those who treat the economy as a casino and provide an actual system of social services (such as universal healthcare for all, a guarantee of safe housing, food and water for all and working towards making higher education tuition-free).

Make the government actually work for the people instead of for CEOs and the ultra-rich. Implement a living wage instead of a minimum wage. While we're at it, let's implement a maximum wage so that we don't have workers making around $7/hour while the CEO of the company they work for brings home hundreds of millions or billions a year. That way there's more to go around, for everyone, and poverty is reduced. Since poverty would be reduced under such a system, you wouldn't have as many people on welfare. More people would be working, too. Since everyone would have access to proper healthcare and a healthy living environment, there wouldn't be so many people out of the workforce for illnesses and disabilities. There would be much greater prosperity and happiness for all. (Our industrial sector needs to be resurrected and outsourcing should be punished, as well.)

That's why I mentioned a mixed economy that leans closer to democratic socialism. It's a middle way between laissez faire capitalism and complete communism. We need to do something, because America is rapidly turning into a third world country.

 

[BSM1]

Communism existed before Marx and Lenin. No Marxist-Leninist state actually achieved communism. A "communist state" is an oxymoron, anyway, since there is no state in communism.

Communism as a political and governmental entity did not.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Communism as a political and governmental entity did not.

Did I claim it did?

 

[BSM1]

Did I claim it did?

Yes.

 

[Deidre]

The NT has various passages about the dangers of a desire for money and advising that money be given given away to help the poor.Yet many self-identified Christians pursue money in all kinds of ways.They claim there is no contradiction in this but is that true or are they simply unwilling to do what Jesus demanded?

Capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

That is the purest definition of capitalism. That doesn't go against the Bible whatsoever, but what capitalism has turned into...which is largely greed based...does go against it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes.

I don't recall making that claim. Pre-Marxism, communism existed in tribal and religious contexts, for example.

 

[BSM1]

Communism existed before Marx and Lenin. No Marxist-Leninist state actually achieved communism. A "communist state" is an oxymoron, anyway, since there is no state in communism.

Seems like you said "Communism existed before Marx and Lenin..." You may be confusing para-communal living with the actual definitive Communism.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Seems like you said "Communism existed before Marx and Lenin..." You may be confusing para-communal living with the actual definitive Communism.

Marx didn't invent communism. He doesn't own the word.

 

[chlotilde]

Capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

That is the purest definition of capitalism. That doesn't go against the Bible whatsoever, but what capitalism has turned into...which is largely greed based...does go against it.

As you rightly recognize, the sin is greed, not capitalism. And greed is a gray area for most people. If you own your house, you're a capitalist. But how big of a house do you need before you say...oh, how greedy to have a 2000 sq. ft. house for only 4 people. How many computer devices do I need (computer, phone, tablet...) before I say I am being greedy. If you live in a first world nation, you surely are greedy compared to most of the population of this world.

St. Frankie said "We need to do something, because America is rapidly turning into a third world country." (not picking on you Frankie, it is just a convenient quote) But he fears a loss of wealth, which in and of itself, could be a greedy statement.

 

[atpollard]

Eph 4:28 "Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need."

This has always been one of my favorite verses. Not because it told ME to stop stealing, and not because it told ME to 'get a job' ... but because it tells ME, WHY.
... That I may have something to share with those in need.

If I stop stealing, or if I never stole, that is not enough ... God is not impressed by MY RIGHTEOUSNESS.
If I work hard and take care of my financial responsibilities, that is not enough ... God is not impressed by MY EFFORTS.

... that I may have something to share with those in need ... God cares about MY HEART. My willingness to prepare to be of service ... to be ready when God sends someone into my life who is in need.
There is no upper or lower limit on my resources. I cannot have too little to be of service ... even the widow's mite is enough. I cannot have too much to be of service ... Job, Daniel and Joseph were all faithful with much.

The key lies not in the government, or the quantity, but in the heart ... the willingness to give when God asks. To serve when the need is perceived.
Wisdom will tell us when giving will help the receiver, and when we would only get in the way of what God is doing. The important thing is that the responsibility falls on ME.
I must steal no longer.
MY hands must do the useful work.
God will reveal the need to ME, that I am responsible for.
Whether head of a Government Bureau, President of a Corporation, or the greeter at Walmart ... I will answer to God for how I have used the resources that he has provided me to meet the needs that he has placed before me.