Can it not exist?

[Spirit of Light]

That's a belief. Also, something "greater than our self" doesn't have to be any God(s). I don't believe in any Gods but I realize the universe is "much greater than our self," for instance.
"Deeper than a belief" would be something you could demonstrate, which obviously, you can't.


Sorry then it's useless to me if I have to put logic aside. That's silly.
I mean, you can't even describe what a spirit is, let alone demonstrate they exist.

Can you think of anything else in your life where you suspend reason and logic and instead just believe? I can't. It seems it only applies to non-demonstrable religious beliefs.

That is your views and understanding nothing wrong with that, we are all different

 

[RestlessSoul]

Our senses are pretty limited. We cannot see radio waves, ultraviolet light, or infrared light. We cannot hear ultrasound. We cannot sense radioactivity.

But our senses are NOT the only means of detecting things. As with the things above, we can use *other* things to detect them and convert that detection into something we can detect. So, we have built radios to radio waves. We have devices to detect ultraviolet and infrared. We have ways to detect ultrasound and radioactivity.

So, it is quite common to know something exists that we cannot directly detect with our senses. We can extend those senses using various devices and use those devices to detect things.

But, does it even make sense to say that something exists if there is literally NO WAY to detect it, even when our senses are extended. even in theory?

To *that* question, I would say that the existence, at that point, has no meaning at all.

Aha. On this, at least, you and I can be in total agreement.


A question of instruments and equipment, then. Perhaps we are all equipped with an instrument or instruments we are not accustomed to use?

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is your views and understanding nothing wrong with that, we are all different

Can you think of anything else in your life where you suspend reason and logic and instead just believe? I can't. It seems it only applies to non-demonstrable religious beliefs.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Can you think of anything else in your life where you suspend reason and logic and instead just believe? I can't. It seems it only applies to non-demonstrable religious beliefs.

Every aspect of my life is first seen through spiritual understanding, I do not believe in "human logic" nor do I believe this so-called physical existence is the real existence, it's more of a byproduct

 

[SkepticThinker]

Every aspect of my life is first seen through spiritual understanding, I do not believe in "human logic" not do I believe this so-called physical existence is the real existence, it's more of a byproduct

So you never employ reason and logic? I find that hard to believe.

So when you see a car driving full speed toward you, you don't think you should move before it hits you? You just keep on standing right in front of it?

The rest of your post is just more unevidenced claims, sorry.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So you never employ reason and logic? I find that hard to believe.

So when you see a car driving full speed toward you, you don't think you should move before it hits you? You just keep on standing right in front of it?

The rest of your post is just more unevidenced claims, sorry.

I did not say anything about what I would or wouldn't do
If a car drive toward me I already know I could die if it hits me, so yes I do move out of it's way. Do not need logic to understand it is the most correct way to act.
Refusing to move and by that die, would also be spiritually wrong action.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If it is invisible to your eyes or your other senses, why is it impossible that it does exist without you being able to detect it?
For something to exist, you must see it?

Can it be that other people can see and understand something you can't see or understand?

That which you don't know, is unknown and thus it is unknown whether it exists or not.

So there are claims other people make that I known nothing about. Then I answer that I don't know.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Every aspect of my life is first seen through spiritual understanding, I do not believe in "human logic" not do I believe this so-called physical existence is the real existence, it's more of a byproduct

Physical existence and that it is the real existence, is philosophy. But your way of doing it is to me another form of philosophy. And as a skeptic I use a 3rd version.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I did not say anything about what I would or wouldn't do
If a car drive toward me I already know I could die if it hits me, so yes I do move out of it's way. Do not need logic to understand it is the most correct way to act.
Refusing to move and by that die, would also be spiritually wrong action.

But you used logic to determine that the car was going to hit you, and then you took the appropriate action of moving out of the way.

The illogical thing to do would be to refuse to move, because you had suspended logic and therefore couldn't determine that the car would hit you if you didn't move.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Physical existence and that it is the real existence, is philosophy. But your way of doing it is to me another form of philosophy. And as a skeptic I use a 3rd version.

Every person has their way of understanding their own existence.
What is the third version

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

But you used logic to determine that the car was going to hit you, and then you took the appropriate action of moving out of the way.

The illogical thing to do would be to refuse to move, because you had suspended logic and therefore couldn't determine that the car would hit you if you didn't move.

You are properly debating. I am not sure, but it feels like it.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But you used logic to determine that the car was going to hit you, and then you took the appropriate action of moving out of the way.

The illogical thing to do would be to refuse to move, because you had suspended logic and therefore couldn't determine that the car would hit you if you didn't move.

If I did not move, it could be seen as a way of killing my self, and that is wrong action. Don't need human logic to understand that, it has already been said in the scripture.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If I did not move, it could be seen as a way of killing my self, and that is wrong action. Don't need human logic to understand that, it has already been said in the scripture.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure you know what logic is, at this point.

 

[George-ananda]

If it is invisible to your eyes or your other senses, why is it impossible that it does exist without you being able to detect it?
For something to exist, you must see it?

Actually the majority of matter in the universe is not directly detectable by our physical senses and instruments (so-called Dark Matter).

Can it be that other people can see and understand something you can't see or understand?

Actually that is what I believe psychic and clairvoyance is; the ability to use psychic senses to see what cannot physically be seen.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'm sorry but I'm not sure you know what logic is, at this point.

As I said, I see life different than you.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Every person has their way of understanding their own existence.
What is the third version

I don't know what is really real. The physical one or your version. So I don't use them. I use a version of anti-realism in combination with a version of phenomenology.
Here is one version of philosophy.

philosophy, (from Greek, by way of Latin, philosophia, “love of wisdom”) the rational, abstract, and methodical consideration of reality as a whole or of fundamental dimensions of human existence and experience. ...

philosophy | Definition, Systems, Fields, Schools, & Biographies
I do the bold one and not reality as a whole. Further as a skeptic I don't believe that I can only use the rational, abstract, and methodical consideration, so I am also an irrationalist.

Here is it in somewhat everyday words. I don't care about what the world is. I care about how it works for humans and I don't believe that I can do that only with physically real and the rational, abstract, and methodical consideration, as to what it means to be a human.

Most of the atheists you encounter are of the British tradition of philosophy. I am more continental European. So even non-religious people are not the same and we are not of the same culture.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don't know what is really real. The physical one or your version. So I don't use them. I use a version of anti-realism in combination with a version of phenomenology.
Here is one version of philosophy.

philosophy | Definition, Systems, Fields, Schools, & Biographies
I do the bold one and not reality as a whole. Further as a skeptic I don't believe that I can only use the rational, abstract, and methodical consideration, so I am also an irrationalist.

Here is it in somewhat everyday words. I don't care about what the world is. I care about how it works for humans and I don't believe that I can do that only with physically real and the rational, abstract, and methodical consideration, as to what it means to be a human.

Most of the atheists you encounter are of the British tradition of philosophy. I am more continental European. So even non-religious people are not the same and we are not of the same culture.

I do like your way of thinking

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My current understanding and beliefs beliefis that God is an higher consciousness being. Non physical life

Like a person/spirit?

 

[Yazata]

If it is invisible to your eyes or your other senses,

We probably need to expand that to 'invisible in principle'. I have never been to Kashmir and have never experienced it, but I wouldn't want to deny its existence. Others have been there and I could go there too, if I wanted.

The words 'in principle' probably need stretching. I assume that there are countless exoplanets in the Andromeda galaxy, but absent the invention of super-luminal travel, I don't expect that any human being will ever visit any of them. Doesn't mean that they don't exist though.

And we would probably have to include instrumental extensions of our senses. Telescopes, microscopes, radio receivers and all kinds of things reveal realities not immediately apparent to our senses.

why is it impossible that it does exist without you being able to detect it?

I would never want to make that claim.

There doesn't seem (at least at first consideration) to be a plausible chain of inference leading from 'there's no way that I (or anyone else) can know about some unknown X' to ' there's no way that the unknown X can possibily exist'. That looks like a non-sequitur to me, unless we introduce some unstated idealistic premise along the lines of 'to be is to be perceived'.

Can it be that other people can see and understand something you can't see or understand?

Sure. The Kashmir example addresses part of that. I've never been to Kashmir and have never experienced it for myself. But I trust that others have been there and I trust their testimony. My personal experience doesn't seem to be necessary for something to exist.

And there are physical things that I don't really understand, but that physicists not only believe are real but also believe that they have instrumental evidence of that reality (after a whole lot of theory is applied). My understanding something doesn't appear to be the criterion of whether it exists or not.

So bottom line, I'm an ontological realist. I hold that countless things (objective things as opposed to subjective things) have their own mind-independent reality. They are discovered, not created when sentient beings become aware of them. Their reality depends in no way on us.

If things exist in their own right and aren't dependent for their existence on me, and if its entirely possible for things to exist that I know nothing about and couldn't understand if I did, I think that I want to say that the reality that I know sort of fades off into the fog of the unknown at the edges. I'm quite certain that reality is much bigger than what I know (and probably what any human can possibly know). The boundaries of the unknown are unknown by definition. So I can't really say with any certainty what exists and doesn't exist beyond the very narrow scope of my awareness. That's why I'm an agnostic regarding transcendental matters I guess.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Like a person/spirit?

Spirit, not as a person