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Can logical thinking lead towards faith?

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
The word begining is not related to time but to our universe.

Yes, time for us does move in one direction (towards the future), but not for the Eternal Creator who is not constrained by time like we are.

The next question after "Cause and Effect" and the logical need for a Cause behind our universe, would be:

"What are the logical attributes of such a powerful and intelligent Creator?"
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Cordoba said:
"What are the logical attributes of such a powerful and intelligent Creator?"

We don't know. If He hasn't chosen to reveal Himself (I think He has), then there is no way to know what the Creator is like. Personally, I am thankful I believe in divine revelation :).

Reasoning to a creator is about as far as we go on logic alone.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Cordoba said:
<< I don't know that the Big Bang will go away >>

Just a reminder that the main point here (which deviated discussion from the main topic) is not the details of the Big Bang theory, but rather the fact that the universe had a starting point, i.e. a beginning, 14 billion years ago.

This makes the universe not an eternal one.

Only the Creator who designed and caused the universe to come in existence is Eternal.
I think I have been talking about a finite universe when I spoke of it's death. I also believe I talked about the beginning not being a product of a creator. It is not eternal - not for its beginning but for its ending. Science is also showing that the beginning may have rules apart from the mythical creator. but could, were it not for the death of the universe, be called eternal. I believe your conclusion is right but for the wrong reasons

Does that not fit in this thread?
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
<< there is no way to know what the Creator is like >>

I agree with you that we can't logically know what the essence of the Creator is.

He can however logically understand some of His attributes. He is Eternal. He also must be very Powerful, to have caused this universe to come into existence, and very Intelligent to have designed it all.

Would you agree?
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Cordoba said:
<< there is no way to know what the Creator is like >>

I agree with you that we can't logically know what the essence of the Creator is.

He can however logically understand some of His attributes. He is Eternal. He also must be very Powerful, to have caused this universe to come into existence, and very Intelligent to have designed it all.

Would you agree?

On the first one, I take "eternal" to be not subject to time. Yes, I would agree with that as far as I know. I believe it is confirmed by His revelation.

On the second, I would also agree, but again, I have to modify the terminology. "Power" is simply the capacity to do something. All capacities ultimately are a product of His creating it in this view. That God is very "powerful," I would say omnipotent, is something of a metaphor to me. A capacity is an attribute of the creation, and the Creator does not have the attribute. It's simply the best way to describe the implication.

I do agree, but I think that the above is implicit in the term "Creator." Going beyond it is getting into a lot of uncertainty without some sort of revelation.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
<< Science is also showing that the beginning may have rules apart from the mythical creator >>

If we do agree that the universe is not eternal, then as mentioned in the article on the first post, it's logical that:

QUOTE
the universe had a beginning means that the cosmos was brought into being out of nothing, that is, that it was created. If a created thing exists (which did not exist beforehand), then it certainly should have a Creator.
UNQUOTE

http://www.evidencesofcreation.com/reason02.htm

Would you agree?
 
Cordoba said:
The next question after "Cause and Effect" and the logical need for a Cause behind our universe, would be:
1) There is no more a 'logical' need for a cause behind our universe than there is for a cause behind a deity.
2) How do we distinguish between an unknown cause and a divine cause, and what would lead us to conclude the latter resulted in the universe rather than the former?
3) How do we then go from "the Creator = something that caused the entire universe without itself being caused" to "the Creator = a conscious entity who has a plan and moral code for mankind"?
 
No*s said:
On the first one, I take "eternal" to be not subject to time.
See, this is why the Invisible Pink Unicorn is such a useful analogy. ;) Time is a dimension...how can something not be subject to it? Time is relative...if there is no movement, there is no time. Unless God has parts, and those parts move relative to each other, no time could have passed before He created things that do move relative to each other (i.e. matter). This means that "before" the universe, God existed for exactly 0 seconds....which means he did not exist before the universe. After all, even Invisible Pink Unicorns existed for 0 seconds. ;)
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
<< Going beyond it is getting into a lot of uncertainty without some sort of revelation >>

I agree with you that at one point in the reasoning sequence a revelation will be needed, i.e. knowledge we receive from the Creator as to the Purpose of Life and other issues.

However, I don't think we've reached that point yet, as there are more logical conclusions we can make of His attributes.

The following is a quote from a section titled "The Logic Proof of the Existence of Allah" in a book titled "He is Allah"

The author at this early stage calls the Creator "The Necessary Being", and logically identifies 14 attributes (or epithets), which are each deduced through reason, one to the next (please forgive the long post):

[1] It must be eternal. If we assume anything save this, then this will denote that it has a period of non-existence, and anything whose existence is preceded by a period of non-existence is an incident and needs a cause to endow it with existence. If the Necessary Being was not eternal, it would have needed an originator, and this is impossible because the Necessary Being is that who is self-existent; it needs no cause to endow it with existence and is the originator of all existing things.

[2] Non-existence can never befall the Necessary Being, otherwise it would be deprived of itself and this is impossible.

[3] It must not be composed of parts, because if this were the case it would have required the precedent presence of these parts, which have an independent existence. Hence it would have needed the existence of something else, and the existence of the Necessary Being is not due to any cause save itself. Moreover, if it had been composed of parts its existence would have depended on the existence of these parts.

[4] It must not be divisible, because if it had been divisible the resultant would have been a number of partitions, consequently a number of existing things liable to non-existence or composition, and this is impossible as aforementioned.

[5] It must be omniscient; its all-inclusive knowledge must precede the acknowledged so that the acknowledged coincides with the eternal knowledge of the Necessary Being.

[6] It must have absolute ability so as to be able to originate and create all the possible and potential things, the means of their existence, their survival, as well as the causes of their annihilation.

[7] It must have an overwhelming will and absolute freedom of choice, as all the possible things exist at a certain time and according to certain characteristics, and it could have been otherwise. Therefore they exist according to the eternal will of their originator and creator.

[8] It must be ever-living in order to grant life to all living things. Its life must be eternal; it is the life that is neither affected by sleep nor slumber, or else its knowledge, ability and will would have been reduced, and this is impossible because all possible beings are in constant need of the absolute existence and presence of the Necessary Being.

[9] It, solely, must have absolute existence, with no other Necessary Being or grantor of existence. If there had been any other Necessary Being it would have been either a helper or a rival. The existence of a helper would mean that the Necessary Being does not have absolute ability, while the existence of a rival would have spoiled the order of all possible things because of differences in wills and choices.

[10] It must have no limited essence, because every essence is restricted to a limited space in which it must either be still or moving; both stillness and motion are incidental, and anything associated with an incident is incidental.

[11] It must have no body. Since it has no limited essence, it must have no body as every body must have a spatial limit and must be made of a number of matters, and all these qualities apply only to incidental things.

[12] It must not require a body to occupy. Anything that occupies a body is temporal and is not self-existent, but requires the existence of this body preceding its own existence. Every body is incidental and needs the precedent existence of its creator. How would the Necessary Being occupy a body if its existence had been eternal? This denotes that this Being is self-existent, has neither a limited essence nor a body; is not temporal and does not need a body to occupy.

[13] It must not be restricted to directions. All directions are incidental and described in relation to the human body; they are either above, below, in front, at the back, to the left or to the right. If the human being had been created in a different shape, e.g. as a sphere, there would have been no directions created. Therefore, it is impossible to assume that any direction can be attributed to the Necessary Being, or that it can be restricted to directions. How could any direction be attributed to the Necessary Being if all directions are incidental?

[14] All the epithets of perfection attributed to any created being must be attributed to the Necessary Being in the most perfect manner because it is quite illogical to assume that the created being is more perfect than the creator.

Source: http://tinyurl.com/6pjcn

All comments and feedback are welcomed.
 
Sorry for posting three times in a row here folks.... :embarassed:

the universe had a beginning means that the cosmos was brought into being out of nothing, that is, that it was created.
No, the universe had a beginning means that the universe had a beginning. Your'e begging the question when you assume that something was "created", then go on to use this assumption to prove that it was created. ;)
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Mr_Spinkles said:
See, this is why the Invisible Pink Unicorn is such a useful analogy. ;) Time is a dimension...how can something not be subject to it? Time is relative...if there is no movement, there is no time. Unless God has parts, and those parts move relative to each other, no time could have passed before He created things that do move relative to each other (i.e. matter). This means that "before" the universe, God existed for exactly 0 seconds....which means he did not exist before the universe. After all, even Invisible Pink Unicorns existed for 0 seconds. ;)

I understand the analogy :).

How could God be subject to time? Time is a part of the universe, and if God created it, then He is not contained by it. By definition, He is not part of time.

That, next, removes the rest from investigation. We can't even comprehend a "before" time. That is, at best, a very flawed analogy, but it is the best terminology we have (It reminds me of Churchill's statement, "Democracy is a terrible form of government. It's just eight times better than its closest competitor.").

Since we can't comprehend anything beyond our experience, I don't think it's valid to say that God did not exist because He is not subject to time. We don't even have a decent understanding of how we relate to time, and we know we're subject to it.

To do that is to place a God within the restrictions of the universe, and thus, define Him away. Your argument assumes that something not subject to the universe cannot exist. That is assuming your conclusion, though, because that is the issue in question :).
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
<< the universe had a beginning means that the universe had a beginning >>

Nice definition! Here are more details:

The universe has a beginning means that before it came into existence there was no universe.

Creation means creating something out of nothing. Only the Eternal Creator (Necessary Being - please see post above) does that: "Be and it Is"!
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Cordoba said:
It must be eternal. If we assume anything save this, then this will denote that it has a period of non-existence, and anything whose existence is preceded by a period of non-existence is an incident and needs a cause to endow it with existence. If the Necessary Being was not eternal, it would have needed an originator, and this is impossible because the Necessary Being is that who is self-existent; it needs no cause to endow it with existence and is the originator of all existing things.

We have already agreed this is implicit in the definition. That, however, does not mean that He cannot work within time as He sees fit, which could even include subjecting Himself to it.

Cordoba said:
Non-existence can never befall the Necessary Being, otherwise it would be deprived of itself and this is impossible.

I would agree that this is implicit in the definition. God would be self-existant. That is, He would be true being. Everything else is derivative being.

Cordoba said:
It must not be composed of parts, because if this were the case it would have required the precedent presence of these parts, which have an independent existence. Hence it would have needed the existence of something else, and the existence of the Necessary Being is not due to any cause save itself. Moreover, if it had been composed of parts its existence would have depended on the existence of these parts.

While I agree that God is not composed of parts, I think you've overstepped your logic. How do you know that God isn't a universe contained in Himself, and that our universe popped up out of His core universe: that ours is a derivative? You can't.

In fact, you have already defined him into posts. You have specified He must have abslotue free-will. By doing so, you have stated you can identify a part. However, this doesn't indicate that "parts" require a precedent. Indeed, they may be as self-existent within the Creator as the parts you believe in, His will or ability.

Cordoba said:
It must not be divisible, because if it had been divisible the resultant would have been a number of partitions, consequently a number of existing things liable to non-existence or composition, and this is impossible as aforementioned.

Again, you cannot know this without divine revelation.

How do you know that divisions within God wouldn't all be co-eternal? You assume that if God has a division in Himself that it is the result of a prior cause. But, like the above, it could be self-existent. Since God is not subject to the universe, then we cannot know if God has divisions, or even if the division/unity dichotomy can make any sense in reference to Him.

Cordoba said:
It must be omniscient; its all-inclusive knowledge must precede the acknowledged so that the acknowledged coincides with the eternal knowledge of the Necessary Being.

If God is not subject to time, and all existence comes from Him, then I can see this being reasonable. However, we do not know how this omniscience works. Does He see all possibilities or only those that happen? We cannot know.

Cordoba said:
It must have absolute ability so as to be able to originate and create all the possible and potential things, the means of their existence, their survival, as well as the causes of their annihilation.

I agreed above with qualifications on wording: "ability" is a property of the universe we see. God is the source of all ability, but we do not know how that functions with Him without revelation.

Cordoba said:
It must have an overwhelming will and absolute freedom of choice, as all the possible things exist at a certain time and according to certain characteristics, and it could have been otherwise. Therefore they exist according to the eternal will of their originator and creator.

You assume that god has a will. What happens if God just is, and the universe emanates from Him? In that case, God makes no decisions, and the universe becomes a creation of God simply because God is. Without divine revelation, we cannot even know God has a mind.

Cordoba said:
It must be ever-living in order to grant life to all living things. Its life must be eternal; it is the life that is neither affected by sleep nor slumber, or else its knowledge, ability and will would have been reduced, and this is impossible because all possible beings are in constant need of the absolute existence and presence of the Necessary Being.

This is another argument that I agree with, but it also follows from your wording that He must also be eternal death. After all, all death also flows from Him. Destructive things like tsunamis and black holes are His creations after all.

To define it any other way requires divine revelation.

Cordoba said:
It, solely, must have absolute existence, with no other Necessary Being or grantor of existence. If there had been any other Necessary Being it would have been either a helper or a rival. The existence of a helper would mean that the Necessary Being does not have absolute ability, while the existence of a rival would have spoiled the order of all possible things because of differences in wills and choices.

That I can grant. God is self-existent, but it is subject to our lack of knowledge on division/unity and parts or even if those concepts make any sense. The argument can only refer to the existence of other beings, not of divisions within God, emanations from God, or parts of God.

Cordoba said:
It must have no limited essence, because every essence is restricted to a limited space in which it must either be still or moving; both stillness and motion are incidental, and anything associated with an incident is incidental.

This makes sense. Motion is only the definition of something existing in the universe. Since the Creator does not, then I can grant that, but there are hangups here.

Cordoba said:
It must have no body. Since it has no limited essence, it must have no body as every body must have a spatial limit and must be made of a number of matters, and all these qualities apply only to incidental things.

I can agree to this only in part. However, if God chooses a body and to exist within one for a period of time, is that beyond God's capabilities?

Cordoba said:
It must not require a body to occupy. Anything that occupies a body is temporal and is not self-existent, but requires the existence of this body preceding its own existence. Every body is incidental and needs the precedent existence of its creator. How would the Necessary Being occupy a body if its existence had been eternal? This denotes that this Being is self-existent, has neither a limited essence nor a body; is not temporal and does not need a body to occupy.

Now this I can agree to. He doesn't require a body...but that doesn't mean that He's limited in that He can't assume one. Unless, of course, you want to put limits on God's abilities ;). As for how God could do such a thing? I can't understand God, so I am certainly not going to attempt to explain that.

Cordoba said:
It must not be restricted to directions. All directions are incidental and described in relation to the human body; they are either above, below, in front, at the back, to the left or to the right. If the human being had been created in a different shape, e.g. as a sphere, there would have been no directions created. Therefore, it is impossible to assume that any direction can be attributed to the Necessary Being, or that it can be restricted to directions. How could any direction be attributed to the Necessary Being if all directions are incidental?

If God should choose for it to be. Remember, we cannot understand the nature of God, and we cannot understand how He could manifest Himself in the universe. For all we know, He can assume a body, and assuming one, have the orientation of the body all the while having no orientation over all. Contradictory? You bet...but we're talking about a being not subject to the rules of the universe, and that includes directions.

Cordoba said:
All the epithets of perfection attributed to any created being must be attributed to the Necessary Being in the most perfect manner because it is quite illogical to assume that the created being is more perfect than the creator.

You cannot know this. I agree, but you cannot know it. God is not subject to our logic, and thus, who are we to guess at His motives?


After reading the above, it seems to me that you are either confusing revelation with fact, or you have gone off and done a lot of speculation about something you can't know about. Not all of those attributes are anywhere near implicit in the term Creator.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Mr_Spinkles said:
No, the universe had a beginning means that the universe had a beginning. Your'e begging the question when you assume that something was "created", then go on to use this assumption to prove that it was created. ;)

There seems to be enough assumption here to pass around :).

You are right, to a degree. Both he and I are working from a perspective that if something has a beginning, then it is a derivative being. In fact, it is subject to ending just as well. If we assume that the universe had a beginning and that it is self-existant simultaneously, then we assume something as incomprehensible and nonsensical as God's definition is to ours.

The big difference is, I don't think the universe is incomprehensible on that level. In fact, I think it contradicts our observations. We can model the universe, predict it, and so on. The ability to practice reductionalism on the universe is an argument against a self-existent universe with a beginning.

Granted, that doesn't mean it's wrong, but I do think it's a whale of an assumption.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Post 39 has some interesting answers, which will need time to reflect on. Hope to that tonight.

<< Not all of those attributes are anywhere near implicit in the term Creator >>

Please note that the author is talking about The Necessary Being - which he defines as follows:

The Necessary Being: Is that who is self-existent and whose existence is not due to any other cause save its true presence and epithets

All the best.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
No*s said:
Not all of those attributes are anywhere near implicit in the term Creator.
Please note the author is logically describing the attributes of The Necessary Being, with the following definition:

The Necessary Being: Is that who is self-existent and whose existence is not due to any other cause save its true presence and epithets

 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
TranceAm said:
Unless you will define to us what "Eternal" means.
I suggest that The Necessary Being is Eternal means that He has always existed.

He has no start and no end (He is The First and The Last), whereas everything else apart from Him has a start and an end, including our universe.

He is not constrained by time like we are, as it's He who designed and created time within our universe. He is Eternal for being independent from this constraint.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Cordoba said:
Post 39 has some interesting answers, which will need time to reflect on. Hope to that tonight.

I understand.

Cordoba said:
<< Not all of those attributes are anywhere near implicit in the term Creator >>

Please note that the author is talking about The Necessary Being - which he defines as follows:

The Necessary Being: Is that who is self-existent and whose existence is not due to any other cause save its true presence and epithets

All the best.

And we agree on the definition of "Necessary Being." I just called it God :D.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
I just found the thread - and without reading 5 pages of posts to catch up, I'd like to wade in here with one question. Are you posting this in the Abrahamic Religions in order to keep those with dissenting views out of the argument?


TVOR
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
The Voice of Reason said:
I just found the thread - and without reading 5 pages of posts to catch up, I'd like to wade in here with one question. Are you posting this in the Abrahamic Religions in order to keep those with dissenting views out of the argument?


TVOR

I don't think so. I think it was placed here, so that the discussion could lead to a dialogue to establish the unity of the Godhead. In other words, I strongly suspect Cordoba wanted to start a Christian/Muslim dialogue and disallow the Trinity via philosophy alone.

That, at least, is the gist of where I think the thread is going.
 
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