Can Man of faith go in a one-on-one

[evolved yet?]

Finally a debate over evolution with someone ?capable? of supporting creationism.

 

[Man of Faith]

Hello, while I am appreciative of the opportunity you are providing and open to a one-on-one debate, I am not a big fan of formal debates. I have limited time in my personal life and don’t like to get buried in a debate that takes a lot of time and effort and have to go through reams of information. If you will notice most of my posts are 3 paragraphs or less and I don’t like to get into a situation where a debate reply takes 3 pages. I have read many one-on-one debates and sometimes my eyes glaze over and I say to myself “what a bunch of drivel”. LOL Maybe that is a flaw in my personality, I don’t know.

I know we are all busy and I am not special in that category but I usually have something going on every day and night. Besides having a full time day job, I am a Deacon in my church and that takes a lot of my time with church activities, meetings, programs, visitations, hospital visits etc… I’m not making excuses but just want to give you an upfront picture of my situation. I’m not complaining either because I love what I do for God and his church. I’m sure you have a full day’s activities also. That being said what did you want to debate? Something about evolution/creation I suspect? There are many areas that could take weeks to debate. Let me know what you had in mind and I will work with you, just try to work with me in giving time for replies and such.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Finally a debate over evolution with someone ?capable? of supporting creationism.

I'll be your huckelberry.:yes:

 

[evolved yet?]

Hello, while I am appreciative of the opportunity you are providing and open to a one-on-one debate, I am not a big fan of formal debates. I have limited time in my personal life and don’t like to get buried in a debate that takes a lot of time and effort and have to go through reams of information. If you will notice most of my posts are 3 paragraphs or less and I don’t like to get into a situation where a debate reply takes 3 pages. I have read many one-on-one debates and sometimes my eyes glaze over and I say to myself “what a bunch of drivel”. LOL Maybe that is a flaw in my personality, I don’t know.

I know we are all busy and I am not special in that category but I usually have something going on every day and night. Besides having a full time day job, I am a Deacon in my church and that takes a lot of my time with church activities, meetings, programs, visitations, hospital visits etc… I’m not making excuses but just want to give you an upfront picture of my situation. I’m not complaining either because I love what I do for God and his church. I’m sure you have a full day’s activities also. That being said what did you want to debate? Something about evolution/creation I suspect? There are many areas that could take weeks to debate. Let me know what you had in mind and I will work with you, just try to work with me in giving time for replies and such.

I will only post when you respond, I will only post a little, we can start with evolution and then do age of the earth, as well as the big bang. I'll start.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

*sings 50's song*

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Hey evolved, are you really 12 years old?

 

[evolved yet?]

Homology
Why would a creator make it so that all animals have things in common? How come some species look almost exactly the same? This according to the theory of evolution is because they are closely related, if you look at the limbs of a pterosaur, bird, whale, human, bat, or anything else they are just a change in the shape of this bone and a lengthening of that finger away from being exactly the same as any of the other animal limbs:

The Fossil Record
The fossil record is unfortunately very poor, but there is still signs of evolution. We have found Fossilized Transitional Fossils between most major lineages including Reptile to Bird which includes:
Archaeopteryx
Micro-raptor
Sinosauropteryx
These are just a few of the fossils in this area. There is a lot of other fossils for other intermediate chains including the fish to tetrapod transition:
Acanthostega
Tiktaalik
Ichythostega
There is others too for other transitions and intermediates that can be found in more detail at the intermediate forms list at talk.origins.
The Fact that fossils actually exist is evidence for evolution because a young earth wouldn't have enough time for fossils to form.
Artificial Selection
Artificial selection which is selection by humans the same way natural selection selects beneficial traits in undomesticated animals shows how much variation can be produced by selection acting on a species, for example a couple species we made by artificial selection/ Dogs, Sheep, Cats, Chicken, Guinea Pig, Pigeons, Yak, Llama, Musk Ox, Goldfish.

Unity of life and Nested Hierarchies
Why would a creator make anything look alike? How come no bats have feathers? A creator could have done that, but why can we classify things, the evolutionary perspective can say it is because if they have recent ancestors they share more traits. Why didn't an all mighty creator put a octopussycat somewhere or a mermaid or a hippocampus( greek legendary fish-horse hybrid), the reason if you accept evolution is because that couldn't evolve with functional intermediate steps.
Vestigial Organs and Atavisms
There is also the organs that we don't use but have like the appendix, and some of our arm muscles that actually aren't present in some people. There is also Atavisms which are rare traits found in a population like, Human tails and Whale Legs as well as many others not mentioned hear.

Predictable Biogeography
Why do living things live where they do? How come most marsupials live on Australia, why not North America having herds of grazing kangaroos? The answer is that if you follow the fossil record they were out competed everywhere else by placentals, this is a prediction of evolution. Why would a creator put penguins only at the south pole even though they probably could do just as good at the north pole( this would also solve the plight of the polar bear). How come there is no freshwater fish on islands.
Ontogeny
Though few humans have a tail at birth all humans have a tail during development. Another example is we go through a three kidneys in development the first is a jawless fish-like kidney and a Reptile-like kidney.
Observed Evolution
In my opinion some of the best evidence for evolution is that we've seen new species come about, which is called macroevolution or speciation, unfortunately many people are unaware of the examples.

Imperfection, Unintelligent Design and Sub-optimality
Perfection is the mark of a creator, imperfection is the mark of evolution. Some examples include Blind spots, the respiratory system crossing the gastrointestinal system( causing choking) and other problems such as the laryngeal nerve.
Gene Homology
Gene comparisons compare different genes to see how they're similar and if evolution is correct, things probably more closely related will have genomes with less differences in the genes.
Retrovirus Insertions
How come there is insertions of viral DNA that match in entirely different species which without a common ancestor would be very unlikely.
Pseudogenes or Junk DNA
99% of the human genome is made of DNA that has no use this is called Junk DNA or Pseudogenes, why would a creator put so much useless stuff in there, that will just use up energy to replicate all the extra DNA, including a gene that is used to produce artificial vitamin C that is no longer functional in humans.

 

[evolved yet?]

Hey evolved, are you really 12 years old?

Yes that is my age.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes that is my age.

Bravo my friend!

I am very impressed with you.

 

[evolved yet?]

Thankyou!

 

[Man of Faith]

Homology, really? There are alternative explanations for homology, like common design to live in a common world for example. Homology proves nothing except that beings look similar. Most beings have bones and ways to pick up things, eat, think, move, hide, escape, digest, etc... and they look similar, big deal. They could have been created that way. This is a textbook example of school books turned bad.

Also 99% of human DNA is not junk, it's just called junk because we don't know what it is used for yet. There hasn't been enough study on it. The term junk DNA was coined in 1972. "Junk DNA, a term that was introduced in 1972 by Susumu Ohno, was a provisional label for the portions of a genome sequence for which no discernible function had been identified. According to a 1980 review inNature by Leslie Orgel and Francis Crick, junk DNA has "little specificity and conveys little or no selective advantage to the organism". The term is currently, however, a somewhat outdated concept, being used mainly in popular science and in colloquial way in scientific publications, and may have slowed research into the biological functions of noncoding DNA. Several lines of evidence indicate that many "junk DNA" sequences have likely but unidentified functional activity, and other sequences may have had functions in the past. Noncoding DNA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am also impressed with you in the fact that you are discussing evolution and creation and debating at your age. I am 50 myself, not that it makes any difference, a person your age can and does have good arguments and discussions and people my age are sometimes idiots. Think about this, I am charged at times with the concept that I only believe in creation because I was raised that way, and that maybe true. However that doesn't mean creation isn't true. Now think about how in schools, all children are exposed to one concept only, and that is evolution. Can a person believe in evolution because they were raised and taught that way, or is that only for creationists? Let me conclude by saying that at your age, you should consider that you should keep an open mind a tad longer concering creation and not make such a strong stance for evolution until you have studied creation some more. I used to think that evolution might be true and the Bible might be wrong, until I started studying it and found out that the ToE is a hoax being perpetrated on our youth and the world by naturalists.

 

[DeitySlayer]

Man of Faith, what about the other points raised by evolvedyet? Such as atavisms and biogeography.

 

[Man of Faith]

Man of Faith, what about the other points raised by evolvedyet? Such as atavisms and biogeography.

Oh, I didn't notice those, I guess I couldn't get passed the homology. That's what I was trying to talk about in my first post. We will need to take one thing at a time, I'm not good at the shotgun effect, posting everything at once. I don't want to post 3,000 words at one time, maybe 500 at the most.

It has taken creationists years and lots of posts and words to try to refute evolutionists claims and I don't want to try to repeat it all at once by refuting multiple claims in the same post. That is what I mean by not being a fan of formal debates because one can get drowned in information that one has to refute. I'm just not interested in refuting 10 claims, for example, of evolution in one post. That's why I said we can discuss many parts of evolution or claims of evolution for weeks at a time. There is a lot of information and frankly misinformation from both sides on this topic. If evolved yet wants to continue to discuss homology we can do that some more, if not then at that time we can go onto a different subject. I could spend all day refuting things that have already been refuted by others smarter than myself and like I said I have a day job and try to limit my posts to something manageable.

 

[evolved yet?]

Okay then right now we'll stick to homology:
But how come there is know mammals with 8 fingers( not including chernobyl victims) on each hand or a hippocampus or something else that would be impossible to fit in to a group?

 

[Man of Faith]

Okay then right now we'll stick to homology:
But how come there is know mammals with 8 fingers( not including chernobyl victims) on each hand or a hippocampus or something else that would be impossible to fit in to a group?

Hi evolved yet,
I would probably need more information on which animal you are specifically referring to. If you are asking why God makes different features on different animals, such as a platypus, I don't know. However each animal looks uniquely designed, and adapted, for their habitat. First you say that homology proves evolution then you ask why animals and humans different. Does homology prove evolution or do differences prove evolution, I am getting confused. If you think about it, the similarities along with the differences show that there is one creator. Animals are unique enough to show that evolution isn't true and similar enough to show that there is one creator.

 

[evolved yet?]

I'm asking why no land living animal has a number of fingers higher then five. The second part I asked why there is no animal that is impossible to fit into a group like why didn't an all powerful god make a mermaid?

 

[Man of Faith]

I'm asking why no land living animal has a number of fingers higher then five. The second part I asked why there is no animal that is impossible to fit into a group like why didn't an all powerful god make a mermaid?

You are asking me why God did what he did and I have already addressed that, I don't know. Like I mentioned in my previous post, if you want to name a specific animal we can discuss how it is designed and adapted to life in its environment.

Why did God give humans two arms and not four? I don't know. Why did evolution do that? You don't know. You don't even know how it happened. Yes you can say "random mutations and natural selection over time did it", but that is just replacing "God did it". You can't tell me what was the first mutation that happened in the first animal that went from water dwelling to land dwelling or what was the second mutation. You can't tell me how many mutations it took to get from water to land dwelling. You can't tell me with certainty what was the first land dwelling animal. Yet you want me to tell you why God made each animal the way it is?

Here is the "science" of homology. First scientists say to themselves, "it is a fact that the variety of life and all life forms came about by a naturalistic evolution. Knowing that let's line up all life forms and see which ones are similiar to the others and then we will draw the evolutionary tree." It's just a model is all, not a solid scientific theory that is testable like gravity or electricity.

 

[evolved yet?]

Like I mentioned in my previous post, if you want to name a specific animal we can discuss how it is designed and adapted to life in its environment.

I would love to here about the perfect design of the giraffe's laryngeal nerve.

Why did God give humans two arms and not four? I don't know. Why did evolution do that? You don't know. You don't even know how it happened. Yes you can say "random mutations and natural selection over time did it", but that is just replacing "God did it".

Well we evolved from a sea vertebrate that was walking using it's fins like modern mudskippers. The tetrapod limb organization just was the most efficient arrangement, instead of four arms.

You can't tell me what was the first mutation that happened in the first animal that went from water dwelling to land dwelling or what was the second mutation. You can't tell me how many mutations it took to get from water to land dwelling. You can't tell me with certainty what was the first land dwelling animal. Yet you want me to tell you why God made each animal the way it is?

Well I can tell you that about four mutations happen every time a cell in your body divides. The first land dweller was a bony fish that would walk between water holes.

Here is the "science" of homology. First scientists say to themselves, "it is a fact that the variety of life and all life forms came about by a naturalistic evolution. Knowing that let's line up all life forms and see which ones are similiar to the others and then we will draw the evolutionary tree." It's just a model is all, not a solid scientific theory that is testable like gravity or electricity.

Well this would be true if it weren't for the fact that genetic evolutionary trees agree, maybe you should try to explain ERVs from a creationist perspective.
[youtube]TUxLR9hdorI[/youtube]
YouTube - Evidence for Evolution, Part III
Please watch more then the first 40 seconds.