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Can Randomness and Chance cause the Evolution of life?

Audie

Veteran Member
I think many Americans think the same.

It is kind of shocking and sad to see that it is nearly half of Americans
are creationists.

This is getting to be a world of very intense intellectual competition.

Americans seem to me to have way too much of the fat self satisfied
arrogant for their future to be that secure. Embracing superstition, anti intellectual anti science as a core value is not going to work out well.

I dont think there is much appreciation of the fact of how many millions and millions of very smart, ambitions, and utterly ruthless people there are, right over there, more than ready to take away from those who cant compete.

Oh, and unsentimental, too. Out with the old, in with the new.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Can Randomness and Chance cause the natural evolution of life?

For that matter, can randomness and chance cause anything?

This common banner of Creationists promoting 'Intelligent Design' and claiming natural evolution cannot happen because of randomness and chance in natural events. Is the variation in the outcomes of cause and effects truly random?

What is the relationship between cause and effect and the variation in the outcomes in nature. Can we have the complexity of life we have today evolve from simplicity?

What are the known causes of life and evolution?

Does random and chance occur in nature? If so how?

First reference:

The chaos theory of evolution By Keith Bennett

mg20827821.000-1_300.jpg

Forget finding the laws of evolution. The history of life is just one damn thing after another

That is not to say that evolution is random – far from it. But the neat concept of adaptation to the environment driven by natural selection, as envisaged by Darwin in On the Origin of Species and now a central feature of the theory of evolution, is too simplistic. Instead, evolution is chaotic.

Adaptationism certainly appears to hold true in microevolution – small-scale evolutionary change within species, such as changes in beak shape in Galapagos finches in response to available food sources.

However, there is still huge debate about the role of natural selection and adaptation in “macroevolution” – big evolutionary events such as changes in biodiversity over time, evolutionary radiations and, of course, the origin of species. Are these the cumulative outcome of the same processes that drive microevolution, or does macroevolution have its own distinct processes and patterns?
. . .
Palaeoecologists like me are now bringing a new perspective to the problem. If macroevolution really is an extrapolation of natural selection and adaptation, we would expect to see environmental change driving evolutionary change. Major climatic events such as ice ages ought to leave their imprint on life as species adapt to the new conditions. Is that what actually happens?

Our understanding of global environmental change is vastly more detailed than it was in Lyell and Darwin’s time. James Zachos at the University of California, Santa Cruz, and colleagues, have shown that the Earth has been on a long-term cooling trend for the past 65 million years (Science, vol 292, p 686). Superimposed upon this are oscillations in climate every 20,000, 40,000 and 100,000 years caused by wobbles in the Earth’s orbit.

Over the past 2 million years – the Quaternary period – these oscillations have increased in amplitude and global climate has lurched between periods of glaciation and warmer interglacials. The big question is, how did life respond to these climatic changes? In principle, three types of evolutionary response are possible: stasis, extinction, or evolutionary change. What do we actually see?

To answer that question we look to the fossil record. We now have good data covering the past 2 million years and excellent data on the past 20,000 years. We can also probe evolutionary history with the help of both modern and ancient DNA.

The highly detailed record of the past 20,000 years comes from analyses of fossilised tree pollen from lake and peat sediments. Tree pollen is generally recognisable to the level of genus, sometimes even species, and the sediments in which it is found can easily be radiocarbon dated.
. . .
Research on animals has come to similarly unexpected conclusions, albeit based on sparser fossil records. For example, palaeontologist Russell Graham at Illinois State Museum has looked at North American mammals and palaeontologist Russell Coope at the University of Birmingham in the UK has examined insects (Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics, vol 10, p 247). Both studies show that most species remain unchanged for hundreds of thousands of years, perhaps longer, and across several ice ages. Species undergo major changes in distribution and abundance, but show no evolution of morphological characteristics despite major environmental changes.

That is not to say that major evolutionary change such as speciation doesn’t happen. But recent “molecular clock” research suggests the link between speciation and environmental change is weak at best.

Die hard
Molecular clock approaches allow us to estimate when two closely related modern species split from a common ancestor by comparing their DNA. Most of this work has been carried out in birds, and shows that new species appear more or less continuously, regardless of the dramatic climatic oscillations of the Quaternary or the longer term cooling that preceded it (Trends in Ecology and Evolution, vol 20, p 57).

What of extinction? Of course, species have gone extinct during the past 20,000 years. However, almost all examples involve some degree of human activity, either directly (think dodos) or indirectly (large mammals at the end of the last ice age, 12,000 years ago).
. . .
If environmental changes as substantial as continent-wide glaciations do not force evolutionary change, then what does? It is hard to see how adaptation by natural selection during lesser changes might then accumulate and lead to macroevolution.

I suggest that the true source of macroevolutionary change lies in the non-linear, or chaotic, dynamics of the relationship between genotype and phenotype – the actual organism and all its traits. The relationship is non-linear because phenotype, or set of observable characteristics, is determined by a complex interplay between an organism’s genes – tens of thousands of them, all influencing one another’s behaviour – and its environment.

Not only is the relationship non-linear, it also changes all the time. Mutations occur continually, without external influence, and can be passed on to the next generation. A change of a single base of an organism’s DNA might have no consequence, because that section of DNA still codes for the same amino acid. Alternatively, it might cause a significant change in the offspring’s physiology or morphology, or it might even be fatal. In other words, a single small change can have far-reaching and unpredictable effects – the hallmark of a non-linear system.

Iterating these unpredictable changes over hundreds or thousands of generations will inevitably lead to evolutionary changes in addition to any that come about by the preferential survival of certain phenotypes. It follows that macroevolution may, over the longer-term, be driven largely by internally generated genetic change, not adaptation to a changing environment.

The evolution of life has many characteristics that are typical of non-linear systems. First, it is deterministic: changes in one part of the system, such as the mutation of a DNA base, directly cause other changes. However, the change is unpredictable. Just like the weather, changes are inexorable but can only be followed with the benefit of hindsight.

Second, behaviour of the system is sensitive to initial conditions. We see this in responses to glaciations in the Quaternary period. The exact circumstances of the beginning of each interglacial determine the development of the whole period, leading to unpredictable differences between interglacials (Quaternary Science Reviews, vol 14, p 967).

Third, the history of life is fractal. Take away the labelling from any portion of the tree of life and we cannot tell at which scale we are looking (see diagram). This self-similarity also indicates that evolutionary change is a process of continual splitting of the branches of the tree.

Fourth, we cannot rewind, as Stephen Jay Gould argued in Wonderful Life. Were we to turn the evolutionary clock back to any point in the past, and let it run again, the outcome would be different. As in weather systems, the initial conditions can never be specified to sufficient precision to prevent divergence of subsequent trajectories.

Life on Earth is always unique, changing, and unpredictable. Even if certain patterns can be dimly discerned, our ability to do so diminishes with time, exactly as for the weather. Consider any moment of the geological record of life on Earth: to what extent were the changes of the next 10 or 100 million years predictable at that time? With the benefit of hindsight, we might be able to understand what happened, and construct a plausible narrative for those events, but we have no foresight.

This view of life leads to certain consequences. Macroevolution is not the simple accumulation of microevolutionary changes but has its own processes and patterns. There can be no “laws” of evolution. We may be able to reconstruct the sequence of events leading to the evolution of any given species or group after the fact, but we will not be able to generalise from these to other sequences of events. From a practical point of view, this means we will be unable to predict how species will respond to projected climate changes over next century.
. . .
We still have much to learn about how life evolved but we will not develop a full appreciation until we accept the complexity of the system."

Adaptationism certainly appears to hold true in microevolution – small-scale evolutionary change within species, such as changes in beak shape in Galapagos finches in response to available food sources.

And 150 years later, this is still where the empirical science leaves off and speculation takes over. Only what worked in the Victorian age thought experiment, fares less well in 21st C testing and modelling.

We use random variation in information system design all the time, to produce just that- random variation- and we better understand now that it requires a system with specific set of pre-determined parameters, limitations, to produce a specified range of viable results. Just as we observe in life: determining long or short hair, wide or narrow beaks, light or dark pigment.

randomly tweaking the parameters that control text color in this software, can never author new software- far less the very software which supports that capacity. That's a paradox inherent to any hierarchical information system

So it's no longer just the fossil record that lacks the intermediate stages, nor is it just the lab experiments that empirically demonstrate these limitations, but the most objective measure of all- the math.

Darwin only had a hypothetical fossil record, which even then had to be assumed to turn out to be much smoother than it appeared at the time, not become increasingly disparate
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
It is kind of shocking and sad to see that it is nearly half of Americans
are creationists.

not to suggest that as many as 50% buy into Darwinism though!

according to Gallup, only 19% believe in the most literal interpretation of Darwinian evolution (no God guiding)

In a country that has led the world in almost every scientific field you can think of for over a century, coincidence? I don't think so!

The Wright brothers were high school dropouts, Edison was home schooled, Gates flunked college. America has long had a tradition of rewarding practical demonstrable results, over mere intellectual/ academic accolades for philosophical ideas. This has served it well, and yes, people have come from all over the world to be part of that.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
not to suggest that as many as 50% buy into Darwinism though!

according to Gallup, only 19% believe in the most literal interpretation of Darwinian evolution (no God guiding)

In a country that has led the world in almost every scientific field you can think of for over a century, coincidence? I don't think so!

The Wright brothers were high school dropouts, Edison was home schooled, Gates flunked college. America has long had a tradition of rewarding practical demonstrable results, over mere intellectual/ academic accolades for philosophical ideas. This has served it well, and yes, people have come from all over the world to be part of that.

Creationism sure has not been a contributor to scientific progress, and any suggestion that it has is bonkers.

So is talking about "literal interpretation of Darwinian evolution", which
is so 19th century! Those people, what, think Victoria is still Queen of England?

The USA dos well despite that powerful current of anti intellectualism, not because of it. Gates and Wright brothers are not of that sorry class of people who place great
spiritual value on their willful ignorance.


There will be no angel with a flaming sword to guard the trailer parks
when the balance shifts to people who know better than to bitterly cling to moldy superstitions.
 
Last edited:

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It is kind of shocking and sad to see that it is nearly half of Americans
are creationists.

This is getting to be a world of very intense intellectual competition.

Americans seem to me to have way too much of the fat self satisfied
arrogant for their future to be that secure. Embracing superstition, anti intellectual anti science as a core value is not going to work out well.

I dont think there is much appreciation of the fact of how many millions and millions of very smart, ambitions, and utterly ruthless people there are, right over there, more than ready to take away from those who cant compete.

Oh, and unsentimental, too. Out with the old, in with the new.


I thought it was leas than 50%, gallup puts at less than 40%.

Resting on your laurel's is no good to anyone, someone is just likely to take it from you while you snooze. Not long ago America was great, a world leader in many facets of life. I believe they only lead the world in 3 points now
1 most incarcerated per capita
2 highest military spending per capita
3 most people per capita who believe in angels.


Interesting point, there are more atheists/agnostics/non believers in god or gods in China than the entire population of America.

As for sentimentalism, absolutely. (Although i think Japan has them beat) . A related interesting point, my house is as old as America.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
not to suggest that as many as 50% buy into Darwinism though!

according to Gallup, only 19% believe in the most literal interpretation of Darwinian evolution (no God guiding)

In a country that has led the world in almost every scientific field you can think of for over a century, coincidence? I don't think so!

The Wright brothers were high school dropouts, Edison was home schooled, Gates flunked college. America has long had a tradition of rewarding practical demonstrable results, over mere intellectual/ academic accolades for philosophical ideas. This has served it well, and yes, people have come from all over the world to be part of that.



America led the field, not any more.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I thought it was leas than 50%, gallup puts at less than 40%.

Resting on your laurel's is no good to anyone, someone is just likely to take it from you while you snooze. Not long ago America was great, a world leader in many facets of life. I believe they only lead the world in 3 points now
1 most incarcerated per capita
2 highest military spending per capita
3 most people per capita who believe in angels.


Interesting point, there are more atheists/agnostics/non believers in god or gods in China than the entire population of America.

As for sentimentalism, absolutely. (Although i think Japan has them beat) . A related interesting point, my house is as old as America.

I glanced at two sources, one said 42, another 46.

Look at the average IQ and education level for the USA, look at
test scores of students. It is utterly shameful and sad.

I love this country but I am very worried for the future.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I glanced at two sources, one said 42, another 46.

Look at the average IQ and education level for the USA, look at
test scores of students. It is utterly shameful and sad.

I love this country but I am very worried for the future.

This is the link i used

In U.S., Belief in Creationist View of Humans at New Low

Taken in may 2017 which is the lowest its been since they started taking polls

I believe 42% was in 2014
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Creationism sure has not been a contributor to scientific progress, and any suggestion that it has is bonkers.

You could have argued that that with Fred Hoyle, who mocked the primeval atom as 'religious pseudoscience' and 'Big Bang'

So is talking about "literal interpretation of Darwinian evolution", which
is so 19th century! Those people, what, think Victoria is still Queen of England?

Apparently, they still live in the Victorian age scientifically!

The USA dos well despite that powerful current of anti intellectualism, not because of it. Gates and Wright brothers are not of that sorry class of people who place great
spiritual value on their willful ignorance.


There will be no angel with a flaming sword to guard the trailer parks
when the balance shifts to people who know better than to bitterly cling to moldy superstitions.

Wealthy people are more intelligent? wow... there's that Victorian age science again!

And who is 'bitter' here?

For the record, let me tell you exactly what I think of you. Like most people who believe in Darwinism, I think you are very intelligent, honest, well meaning, entirely capable of critical thought, and probably a very nice person all around. After all I used to share your beliefs 100%.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This is the link i used

In U.S., Belief in Creationist View of Humans at New Low

Taken in may 2017 which is the lowest its been since they started taking polls

I believe 42% was in 2014


When I went to university we had a substantial foreign student population.. I wonder if that is still the case. The U.S. used to be where people from other countries would go to get a high quality secondary education. Now with us having to play so much "catch up" I wonder if that is still that case. Near my university there was a Chinese restaurant that was the only one that the Chinese students would go to. They tried to be as authentic as possible in the middle of the U.S.. I have not found anything close to it since I left.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You could have argued that that with Fred Hoyle, who mocked the primeval atom as 'religious pseudoscience' and 'Big Bang'



Apparently, they still live in the Victorian age scientifically!



Wealthy people are more intelligent? wow... there's that Victorian age science again!

And who is 'bitter' here?

For the record, let me tell you exactly what I think of you. Like most people who believe in Darwinism, I think you are very intelligent, honest, well meaning, entirely capable of critical thought, and probably a very nice person all around. After all I used to share your beliefs 100%.

Creationism has contributed nothing to scientific advancement.

The bit about people living in victorian times applies better to creationists, tho
they actually are more like 17th century or earlier

Neither said nor implies that wealth makes for intelligence. Deliberate misreading?

As for 'share my beliefs 100%"? Not a chance.

Sorry to hear you are such a backslider as to even imagine such a thing, tho.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
When I went to university we had a substantial foreign student population.. I wonder if that is still the case. The U.S. used to be where people from other countries would go to get a high quality secondary education. Now with us having to play so much "catch up" I wonder if that is still that case. Near my university there was a Chinese restaurant that was the only one that the Chinese students would go to. They tried to be as authentic as possible in the middle of the U.S.. I have not found anything close to it since I left.

The U I went to is heavily populated with "international" grad students.

A lot of it is because there are no qualified Americans for the positions
in engineering, biology, physics, chemistry.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
When I went to university we had a substantial foreign student population.. I wonder if that is still the case. The U.S. used to be where people from other countries would go to get a high quality secondary education. Now with us having to play so much "catch up" I wonder if that is still that case. Near my university there was a Chinese restaurant that was the only one that the Chinese students would go to. They tried to be as authentic as possible in the middle of the U.S.. I have not found anything close to it since I left.

Pretty much the same in the UK, and at £9000+ a year tuition fees, universities are touting for more foreign students.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The U I went to is heavily populated with "international" grad students.

A lot of it is because there are no qualified Americans for the positions
in engineering, biology, physics, chemistry.

That is a bit sad. During my days we taught the international students and now we rely on them. It was one of the positive aspects of college life. One got to meet and learn of the cultures of other countries. I suppose that is still the case at universities, but then we were leaders. Now, not so much.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
This is the link i used

In U.S., Belief in Creationist View of Humans at New Low

Taken in may 2017 which is the lowest its been since they started taking polls

I believe 42% was in 2014

Right, and from that same link only 19% believe 'humans evolved, but God had no part in the process'. I'm with the 81% who are skeptical of this.


It really makes you wonder what those numbers would be if both were actually allowed equal footing in curriculum and pop media!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Pretty much the same in the UK, and at £9000+ a year tuition fees, universities are touting for more foreign students.

I am sure that education is subsidized for native students in England. At the U of M, and just about every other public university that I know of, in-state tuition is about a third of that of out-state (what students not born in the state pay).
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Right, and from that same link only 19% believe 'humans evolved, but God had no part in the process'. I'm with the 81% who are skeptical of this.


It really makes you wonder what those numbers would be if both were actually allowed equal footing in curriculum and pop media!

That wasn't my argument and in dont really care. Because of those numbers America is failing, a great shame for a once great nation.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I am sure that education is subsidized for native students in England. At the U of M, and just about every other public university that I know of, in-state tuition is about a third of that of out-state (what students not born in the state pay).

No subsidies, they were phased out from 1998

Its 9k+ per year for uk students capped at £9250.

For foreign students it starts around £9k but for specialist medical degrees it can get up to £38k

For residents of scotland university tuition is free.
 
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