Can religion be successful without mysticism?

[Mr Cheese]

Most denominations nowadays are doing everything to sustain membership by "hamming up the services", i.e. more techno-visual aids during the service, and more guest singers, as well as building recreatonal facililties to attract the younger crowd. Many, however, have gotten deeply in debt doing these things at the worst possible time, when contributions are going down because people are out of work.

eckhart Tolle has his own pay per view TV service now....

before anyone jumps down my throat, I know, he offers a lot of free stuff too

 

[Willamena]

what about in latin and south america...

where exoteric is very much growing

Or in Islam....which maintains the exoteric over the esoteric, especially in regions akin to Afghanistan.....

witness the filipeno way of performing crucifixtions every easter!



this would certainly be a chicken McNugget to me...

I understand --but who are you and I (the observer) to say whether the esoteric is present or not in the exoteric?

 

[no-body]

Sure it can be successful without it, but it's like a car without gasoline. You can live in it, it looks pretty, you can even push it places. But you're not really using it for its intended purpose.

eckhart Tolle has his own pay per view TV service now....

before anyone jumps down my throat, I know, he offers a lot of free stuff too

Yeah that sounds kind of fishy to me too, it kind of bummed me out since I've learned so much from him. But then again his followers always seem to do the exact opposite of what he says. Maybe he's just a really good reverse-psychologist.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I understand --but who are you and I (the observer) to say whether the esoteric is present or not in the exoteric?

The secret (or inner) does not negate or deny the open (or outer), which can at times even be said to surround it, contain it, protect it, albeit perhaps unwittingly. In specifically Islamic terms, the tarigah (Arabic for path or Way) does not replace the shart’ah (the law, the highly developed code of rules and regulations that consti­tutes Islam); both start with the same foundational guidelines. But at the same time, since the esoteric path is one where movement takes place inside the circle, its progress may not always be dis­cernible to those on the circumference.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Sure it can be successful without it, but it's like a car without gasoline. You can live in it, it looks pretty, you can even push it places. But you're not really using it for its intended purpose.

tell that to people who eat a McMuffin 5 times a week or similar....

 

[Willamena]

The secret (or inner) does not negate or deny the open (or outer), which can at times even be said to surround it, contain it, protect it, albeit perhaps unwittingly. In specifically Islamic terms, the tarigah (Arabic for path or Way) does not replace the shart’ah (the law, the highly developed code of rules and regulations that consti­tutes Islam); both start with the same foundational guidelines. But at the same time, since the esoteric path is one where movement takes place inside the circle, its progress may not always be dis­cernible to those on the circumference.

Who are you or I (the remote observer) to say whether movement is taking place within the circle?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

In animistic cultures people go to the shamans for all their spiritual needs.

I would say that in many animistic cultures they would go to the shamans to have him/her facilitate there own mystical experiences.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Who are you or I (the remote observer) to say whether movement is taking place within the circle?

either you have eaten an apple...or you havent

its as simple as that

or plainly.... either you have had direct experience or you are a "remote observer"

 

[Willamena]

either you have eaten an apple...or you havent

its as simple as that

or plainly.... either you have had direct experience or you are a "remote observer"

I'm asking, who are we (the remote observer) to say whether the people in Afghanistan or Latin America have eaten an apple? You see the exoteric, because that's all the remote observer is given to see. I'm saying that a judgement of "the exoteric is growing" says nothing about the esoteric. We aren't given to see the movement within any but ourselves.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I'm asking, who are we (the remote observer) to say whether the people in Afghanistan or Latin America have eaten an apple? You see the exoteric, because that's all the remote observer is given to see. I'm saying that a judgement of "the exoteric is growing" says nothing about the esoteric. We aren't given to see the movement within any but ourselves.

ah...

well I'd say literalism...
and nailing people to crosses are fairly good indicators

I guess things like taking the Koran to the point of stoning people to death
banning phallic shaped vegetables
following the vatican to the letter without thinking

etc

 

[Willamena]

ah...

well I'd say literalism...
and nailing people to crosses are fairly good indicators

Is nailing people to crosses an indicator of literalism? Is nailing people to crosses any more or less an indicator of a missing esoteric than eating a waffer and sipping wine?

Alright, enough questions. You may consider them rhetorical.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

what about in latin and south america...

where exoteric is very much growing

Or in Islam....which maintains the exoteric over the esoteric, especially in regions akin to Afghanistan.....

witness the filipeno way of performing crucifixtions every easter!

this would certainly be a chicken McNugget to me...

We Hindu's seem to go to far in this area.

This is the good old fashion Hindu on a bed of nails. I wonder how much of this the filipeno ways are do to the Philippines were a Hindu country before the forced conversions of the Spanish and Muslims.

 

[Mr Cheese]

We Hindu's seem to go to far in this area.

This is the good old fashion Hindu on a bed of nails. I wonder how much of this the filipeno ways are do to the Philippines were a Hindu country before the forced conversions of the Spanish and Muslims.

ascetcism can certainly be taken far too far

however nailing people to a cross is slightly different to being an ascetic

 

[no-body]

however nailing people to a cross is slightly different to being an ascetic

They are the same things except those nailed to crosses are focusing on symbolism.