Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
What needs to be proven, though? Unless God is something tangible, I don't see how it makes sense to say something can't be proven but then it's been proven by believers daily. It's a contradiction in terms.
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Can Science/HumanMind ever prove God/Truth?
What needs to be proven, though? Unless God is something tangible, I don't see how it makes sense to say something can't be proven but then it's been proven by believers daily. It's a contradiction in terms.
I have said here "to understand God you have to understand nature, to understand nature you have to understand God. To split that is to negate that, and to negate that is to not understand that.
I mean science plays lip service to nature being objective when really what they are saying they are objective.... In Context to what? They believe what Nature is? That's actually Impossible. The flip can be said of god and religion. They think they are objective to what? What they believe God is?
They seem like twins to me arguing.
stvdv
Veteran Member
25 jun 2018 stvdv 012 68
That is the biggest contradiction in terms "it has been proven by believers"
That is the biggest contradiction in terms "it has been proven by believers"
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stvdv
Veteran Member
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That's a healthy perspective. Rarer than it should be unfortunately. But heck gives some of purpose as well!!
Ishmael
Member
Is not the FEAR of God (The God of Moses, Issac, Jacob, Abraham etc.) the beginning of wisdom? IF He is the Creator and ALL things we call "matter" were created by Him and this creation "MATTERS" to Him, in as much as the Creator has revealed Himself to them through His CHOSEN people through whom the entire creation "WILL be blessed;" then why limit the Creator to anything imagined by his creation?
Think of a potter who makes two pots. One he delicately decorates with all his skill and then fires it to a high glaze and then places it in his living room and puts all manner of flowers in it and all his friends and family tell him over and over how this pot HONORS him. But the other pot is left to its base instincts and placed in his chamber and that pot is used for vile purposes in secret and the stink of it eventually forces the potter to throw that pot out the window and it dashes itself to pieces upon the rocks till nothing is left of it. Who is it whom can tell the potter what to do with His pots?
Even if the pot could THINK, it would still belong to its creator.
The Kingdom of God has come unto you and the offer to enter therein has been made.
The choice is YOURS, but Grace is sure for those predestined to obtain it.
Peace be unto you, even unto the end.
Think of a potter who makes two pots. One he delicately decorates with all his skill and then fires it to a high glaze and then places it in his living room and puts all manner of flowers in it and all his friends and family tell him over and over how this pot HONORS him. But the other pot is left to its base instincts and placed in his chamber and that pot is used for vile purposes in secret and the stink of it eventually forces the potter to throw that pot out the window and it dashes itself to pieces upon the rocks till nothing is left of it. Who is it whom can tell the potter what to do with His pots?
Even if the pot could THINK, it would still belong to its creator.
The Kingdom of God has come unto you and the offer to enter therein has been made.
The choice is YOURS, but Grace is sure for those predestined to obtain it.
Peace be unto you, even unto the end.
exchemist
Veteran Member
The answer to the question is "no".
Firstly the impossiblity of either proving or disproving the existence of God is one of the oldest chestnuts in philosophy. Secondly, science does not deal in proof.
Audie
Veteran Member
A little common sense tell us that we need the sun.
"Common sense" about that can be demonstrated a thousand
thousand ways to be so.
Your common sense about the universe? The word is
"feeling", not common sense.
Not one least detail of your belief can be demonstreated
to be so.
You see any difference there?
Audie
Veteran Member
We've all heard this analogy a thousand times.
It is preachin' to the choir, and of no value at all
as rhetoric.
stvdv
Veteran Member
25 jun 2018 stvdv 012 86
Yes I see the difference:
A) I share what I believe [no claim whatsoever] without filling in for others what they should believe [explicitly said so even]
B) You criticize my belief/feeling and fill in for me how I should feel or what my "common sense" is [if you are clear-voyant you are off here]
[actually I even stated that I don't know myself what I believe of God, maybe you can tell me what I believe]
[So your whole point you think you make, does make no sense whatsoever to me]
That is what I see, that is the difference I see.
BUT to be clear, I do not criticize what you do, just answer your question "you see the difference?"
It is okay of course that you criticize my common sense [not saying it is smart though], we are on debate RF after all.
You know "Common Sense" is not a fixed thing. Life experiences and feelings change this. It is not the same for everyone. It is like feeling. Does it make sense to say to someone that his feelings/belief are wrong? You have your feeling, and I have my feeling. That is all there is to it. I just don't judge feelings/beliefs of other people [this includes common sense].
Example to make it abundantly clear what I mean:
Man sees beautiful girl and forces himself on her. To the police the man later says "I was feeling that she wanted sex". We better don't think we know better what the other (should) feel/believe.
Yes I see the difference:
A) I share what I believe [no claim whatsoever] without filling in for others what they should believe [explicitly said so even]
B) You criticize my belief/feeling and fill in for me how I should feel or what my "common sense" is [if you are clear-voyant you are off here]
[actually I even stated that I don't know myself what I believe of God, maybe you can tell me what I believe]
[So your whole point you think you make, does make no sense whatsoever to me]
That is what I see, that is the difference I see.
BUT to be clear, I do not criticize what you do, just answer your question "you see the difference?"
It is okay of course that you criticize my common sense [not saying it is smart though], we are on debate RF after all.
You know "Common Sense" is not a fixed thing. Life experiences and feelings change this. It is not the same for everyone. It is like feeling. Does it make sense to say to someone that his feelings/belief are wrong? You have your feeling, and I have my feeling. That is all there is to it. I just don't judge feelings/beliefs of other people [this includes common sense].
Example to make it abundantly clear what I mean:
Man sees beautiful girl and forces himself on her. To the police the man later says "I was feeling that she wanted sex". We better don't think we know better what the other (should) feel/believe.
Audie
Veteran Member
25 jun 2018 stvdv 012 86
Yes I see the difference:
A) I share what I believe [no claim whatsoever] without filling in for others what they should believe [explicitly said so even]
B) You criticize my belief/feeling and fill in for me how I should feel or what my "common sense" is [if you are clear-voyant you are off here]
[actually I even stated that I don't know myself what I believe of God, maybe you can tell me what I believe]
[So your whole point you think you make, does make no sense whatsoever to me]
That is what I see, that is the difference I see.
BUT to be clear, I do not criticize what you do, just answer your question "you see the difference?"
It is okay of course that you criticize my common sense [not saying it is smart though], we are on debate RF after all.
You know "Common Sense" is not a fixed thing. Life experiences and feelings change this. It is not the same for everyone. It is like feeling. Does it make sense to say to someone that his feelings/belief are wrong? You have your feeling, and I have my feeling. That is all there is to it. I just don't judge feelings/beliefs of other people [this includes common sense].
Example to make it abundantly clear what I mean:
Man sees beautiful girl and forces himself on her. To the police the man later says "I was feeling that she wanted sex". We better don't think we know better what the other (should) feel/believe.
Goodness gracious!
Skipping all but the part in bold, we see that
you just made something up. I did not
say, intend, or in any way imply what you claim.
But never mind, debate or discussion is one thing,
responding to someone's blatant falsehoods
quite another.
Let us go our separate ways.
exchemist
Veteran Member
How does this address the issue this thread is about?
On second thoughts, don't bother to answer.
stvdv
Veteran Member
25 jun 2018 stvdv 012 88
So I did not make up any blatant falsehoods
Seems good to go our separate ways
Namastee
You were the one making claims, not me
So I did not make up any blatant falsehoods
Seems good to go our separate ways
Namastee
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nPeace
Veteran Member
I agree with this about 97%.
I believe man is limited in so many ways, but I also believe that man can become great only if as you said humbles himself. When man does that, he becomes great in understanding, knowledge, wisdom, and even ability beyond his limitations, because I believe these things can come, only from the greatest in the universe.
Proverbs 1:7; 2:6 (ASV)
The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of knowledge;
But the foolish despise wisdom and instruction.
For Jehovah giveth wisdom;
Out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding:
I think that it is possible to know what God wants, because he wants us to. Hence why he used humble men to convey his instructions orally, and in written form.
Humility come in here, by our submitting to that arrangement, and not thinking, as some do, "Who is he to tell me anything?"
Or, "Why should I follow this?"
When clearly there is evidence in both that tells us why we should.
When the man that was born blind received his sight, and the unbelievers were disputing with him, he said, John 9
30 “How strange!” the man replied. “He healed my eyes, and yet you don’t know where he comes from. 31 We know that God listens only to people who love and obey him. God doesn’t listen to sinners. 32 And this is the first time in history that anyone has ever given sight to someone born blind. 33 Jesus could not do anything unless he came from God.”
We also saw a similar situation with Moses. Numbers 16.
The knowledge we gain is limited yes, but God can use something limited and yet display grandeur imo.
stvdv
Veteran Member
26 jun 2018 stvdv 013 11
97% agreement. You made my day, really you did [personal reason for that]
I am curious where the 3% difference is hidden though:
Maybe you had the impression that I think we humans cannot know what God wants, is it that? I never said that, I think.
It is a tricky one though. If you contemplate or think deep on this, you quickly will see why this is so tricky.
But if we, after smartly taken out the tricky parts, limit this to "We can know what God wants ME to do" then I believe that is very much possible. Even better, God gave us the perfect personal equipment to know what He wants us to do IMHO
Are we still on this 97%?
Thanks for your friendly reply, I appreciate that.
97% agreement. You made my day, really you did [personal reason for that]
I am curious where the 3% difference is hidden though:
Maybe you had the impression that I think we humans cannot know what God wants, is it that? I never said that, I think.
It is a tricky one though. If you contemplate or think deep on this, you quickly will see why this is so tricky.
But if we, after smartly taken out the tricky parts, limit this to "We can know what God wants ME to do" then I believe that is very much possible. Even better, God gave us the perfect personal equipment to know what He wants us to do IMHO
Are we still on this 97%?
nPeace
Veteran Member
Well, I think credit should be given where it's due, and I don't think there is any unreasonableness in what you said. I think if anyone disagrees that we are infinitesimally small in this vast universe, and our brains must be the same, then ....
Yes, I thought this is what you were suggesting.
However, that was only 1%. So now the 2% has to do with religion.
If the universal sovereign wants us to know the truth about him etc., and he conveys it to humble people, then it is only logical to conclude that he will be guiding and directing his people on earth, to understand in their limited knowledge, what is the limited truth found in his word.
This is the case, throughout the scriptures. he always used imperfect people, and organized and guided them in their limited understanding. They didn't get everything right, but they got the main points, which helped them to do God will, as best they could.
The thing is, their understanding was never at a point where they could say, "I have all understanding now." It was always a gradual growth, and it will always be. There will never be a point where we can say we have reached all understanding - even if we live billions of year, that's according to the scriptures.
Ecclesiastes 3:11
It is beautiful how God has done everything at the right time. He has put a sense of eternity in people’s minds. Yet, mortals still can’t grasp [fathom] what God is doing from the beginning to the end of time.
So I believe, just as the blind man was able to identify a prophet of God, people today are given the means of identifying God's organized people today.
Is this similar to what you were saying. Oftentimes, we could misunderstand what someone is saying, so it's possible I could have done this.
stvdv
Veteran Member
26 jun 2018 stvdv 013 14
I did not write this, I thought. This is exactly how I see it. Could not word it myself any better. Don't tell me you believe the same.
Wonderful verse
All you wrote above is how I see it. So you did not misunderstand me. Do you mean to say that this is the 2% we differ. You do not believe the above?
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nPeace
Veteran Member
Seems we agree 100% then... on the OP.