Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Wharton]

Jehovah never stops having ultimate authority. That is why the second psalm say the son is his king. (Ps 2:2c,3,6,11,12) And the Ancient of Days give authority to the chosen son of man. (Da 7:13,14) And the Mount of Olives is symbolically split into two mountains, (that is two authorities, one subservient and harmonic to the other) at Zechariah 14:3,4.

Wonder why the son of man at Daniel 7:13 is not called the Ancient of Days. Maybe because he is not the King of Eternity? (1 Timothy 1:17; Re 15:3)

The son of man is limited by time and space and the Ancient of Days is not.

 

[Katzpur]

I never stated that the son received the father's position. The son is not the father.

If He did not receive the Father's position, then the Father still occupies the position of supremacy that He has always had.

 

[Katzpur]

You were questioning me on the concept of the eternal now, not the trinity.

Apparently you see a relationship. You have devoted a great deal of time trying to prove something that must, in your mind, have something to do with the Trinity. I'm just wondering what it is.

 

[JayJayDee]

As John states,"the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world." Wow. Jesus is there 'standing as if slain' before the world began. How can a first century man like John grasp the eternal now when some 21st century people still can't?

This one always makes me smile. "Slain before the founding of the world" doesn't mean before the creation of the planet....how could it? That would mean that humans did not have free will and were doomed from the day they were created. The tree of the knowledge of good and bad was a cruel trap. God knew what the devil and the first humans were going to do all along and one then has to wonder why he bothered. What kind of a father would deliberately set his children up for failure, suffering and death?

The expression "from the founding of the world" carries the meaning of "laying down seed"...as in human conception. Adam and his wife did not have children until after they sinned. So in sentencing Adam and his wife, God gave the first prophesy in Gen 3:15. This is when he promised the savior. Before the laying down of Adam's seed as in the conception of his children, God had everything covered. Before any human came from the now sinful Adam, (Rom 5:12) Christ was assigned to die for them. His slaying was prophesied from before the time they came into existence.

 

[JayJayDee]

The false teaching is yours, not mine. Once again, your NWT needs to be changed to reflect your theology/doctrine. I mentioned the need for change to 'only-created son' before. Now you need to change 'first-born' to 'first-created.' First-BORN is the result of being begotten, not created. You beget the same nature/essence, not an inferior essence/nature. That's not hard to understand. It's simple.

"Firstborn" (monogenes) is the term used in scripture. There is no other word...it was a familiar one used at the time....it meant only one thing. We know what it means.
Who is the firstborn in a family? Is the firstborn genetically different to all the other children? They have the same father, so are they all the same or is the firstborn somehow superior in "essence" to his brothers or sisters?

Now let's imagine that parents have one child, but because of circumstances, they cannot conceive any more children naturally. A surrogate is used to produce the other children. The woman's eggs were harvested earlier and the husband is still fertile. Conception takes place outside the body because the biological materials necessary for the creation of an embryo have been supplied.....and the fertilised egg is implanted. Are the children produced by the surrogate still the same biological child as the firstborn?

Does the use of the agent (surrogate) alter the genetic make up of the other children produced?

God has many "sons"...they are all spirit beings. Jesus is unique in his heavenly family because of his position and the manner of his creation. He was created first but given the ability to produce others like himself by holy spirit. He became the agency through which all things came into being. (Prov 830, 31) He has rank over his angelic brothers as their chief. As firstborn, he has the title "the son of God" even though others are also called "sons of God". Even Adam as a created being is called a "son of God".

There are Serifs and Cherubs who also rank higher than other angels. We only have brief glimpses into the heavenly arrangement, but we see that although these beings are powerful, there is no one equal to the Almighty Creator.....YHWH.

There is one stand-alone person in the Trinity. The Father. Nothing 'exists' without the Father. The Son, begotten, not created by the Father, is lesser by POSITION only. Being begotten, the son has the same nature/essence as his father.

So the Father has a superior position but the son is equal? Sorry, that doesn't wash. All beings who occupy the spirit realm are spirits....all have spiritual bodies and all are unique creations as they are not designed to reproduce. They have powers that humans do not have. And apparently they are also endowed with free will.

Yes, Jesus has a 'God' as his father just as you have a human as your father. And that makes him? God by parentage

And you just proved my point. "Mighty ones" are indeed called "gods". Jesus was a god and so were others called "mighty ones" in the Bible...even some humans. It doesn't make them equal to the Almighty God....the one identified in John 1:1 as "ho theos". (THE God)

The father knows things the son does not know because they 'exist' in the eternal now. There is no past or future. When the father decides to end the world, the son will know.

The son did not know things that were future events on earth.....things that were to occur thousands of earth years into the future. Since the Bible is a book of prophesy (among other important things) and the things written were to happen that far into the future, must mean that God has command of past, present and future. How could he tell us what will happen in the future is everything he is doing is now? Makes no sense.

Jesus worships the father on earth out of love for his father. That is something he could not do nor is he required to do in heaven.

Yet he calls his Father "my God" even after his return to heaven (Rev 3:12).....how does that work? One equal part of God is worshipping another part of himself. No mention is made of the holy spirit in most of the trinity proof texts.

Without a Trinity, your salvation hangs on an inferior being and that's not possible. You know, the Lord is my rock and my salvation thingee.

You have been conditioned by years of trinitarian ingraining. The salvation of the human race was based on a ransom. Do you understand what a ransom is? It is the price demanded for the release of of someone held hostage. It is what is deemed to be the value of the life held.

The human race was hijacked in Eden by some rebels and a ransom was determined by God that would secure their release.

What was the price demanded? Equivalency was the basis of God's perfect justice. A life had to be paid for a life, according to God's law. The Life Adam lost for his children had to be cancelled by the offering of an equivalent life. Jesus came in the flesh as a sinless equal to Adam. He did not have to be God in order to pay the ransom....he just had to be sinless. Jesus was in no way inferior to the task.

Making God into a human is just plain silly. The Almighty is immortal and cannot die. Jesus was a spirit son who was not immortal and hence could offer his life as Adam's equal. This is why Jesus is called "the last Adam".

The father is greater by position only and because he begets, not creates the son. The trinity moves in unison. They do nothing on their own.

Trinitarians will never see the absurdity or the blasphemy of this teaching because they simply do not want to open their heart....it would mean admitting that their spiritual guides got it wrong....something that most people are simply not prepared to do. They are convinced that their whole belief system rests on this very shaky foundation.....it's part of the sand that Jesus was talking about in his parable. The storm is coming and that flawed building will collapse.

 

[katiemygirl]

nope , I went back a checked . it was the emphatic diaglott that was used in my post

I did not say the JW's wrote, or modified the ED. I said the NWT added and omitted words to its NW translation. The ED was a precursor to the NWT. As Wharton pointed out, it was written by one man (who was a Christadelphian) and the copyright was purchased by Russell.

Do you consider the ED a credible source?

 

[cataway]

I did not say the JW's wrote, or modified the ED. I said the NWT added and omitted words to its NW translation. The ED was a precursor to the NWT. As Wharton pointed out, it was written by one man (who was a Christadelphian) and the copyright was purchased by Russell.

Do you consider the ED a credible source?

its OK , the Kingdom Interlinear Bible is better

 

[katiemygirl]

its OK , the Kingdom Interlinear Bible is better

I use the KI often, especially when speaking with JW's who come to my door.

Today is the Lord's Day, the day He arose.

"O come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker." Psalm 95:6

May God bless you and yours!

 

[katiemygirl]

its OK , the Kingdom Interlinear Bible is better

I'm wondering why you brought up the ED in the first place?

 

[Wharton]

If He did not receive the Father's position, then the Father still occupies the position of supremacy that He has always had.

Supremacy as to what? It's not nature/essence. There is no God, God-er and God-est. Just like there's no dead, deader and deadest. God is God. Dead is dead. Human is human.

The Father is first by position. That's why he's called the father.

Is your father more human because he is first by position? Are you required to worship him because of his position? When you become of age, are you subject to him?

 

[Wharton]

Trinitarians will never see the absurdity or the blasphemy of this teaching because they simply do not want to open their heart....it would mean admitting that their spiritual guides got it wrong....something that most people are simply not prepared to do. They are convinced that their whole belief system rests on this very shaky foundation.....it's part of the sand that Jesus was talking about in his parable. The storm is coming and that flawed building will collapse.

The absurdity is that non-Trinitarians believe that God accepts human sacrifice as an offering. It's a fact that human sacrifice is not acceptable to God in the OT, being emphasized by the Abraham/Isaac scenario. And you believe that it is acceptable which is contrary to scripture. So when did the immutable God change his mind?

 

[JM2C]

Actually, it's people who believe that Jesus is God are the ones who bring their beliefs into scripture. They make the bible into a trinitarian bible. Jesus is the son of God, not God the Son. Those verses above are wonderful verses showing us that God works through His Son.

Those verses came from the bible and all you have to do is read them. Without ambiguity, cleared of any doubts, unbiased, and as you can read them, the Lord Jesus Christ, based on the scriptures, is God, the Son of God.

I did not have to alter nor adulterate nor forge any of them just to satisfy my own flesh like those whose appetites is just to satisfy their own belly, which is their god, and alter, adulterate, and forge the very Word of God for their own self-satisfaction.

They need to preserve the continuity, [from Aquila, Theodotion to the present time] of this alterations, adulterations, and forgeries of the very Word of God so they could fill up their needs to satisfy their own flesh. IOW, their belly is their god.

Now, these alterations, adulterations, forgeries of the very Word of God by these people, from Aquila’s, Theodotion’s, Symachus’, to Westcott’s and Hort’s, and Moffatt’s, and JW’s, clearly and without a doubt came only from one source, and that is, from satan himself. They cannot be divided into many groups because one cannot stand up by itself.

Mt 12:26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?

As you can read they have one thing in common, and those are, denying the virgin birth, the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Word became flesh, even the resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ.

IOW, these people are the antichrist.

1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar? [see John 8:44] It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

1Jn 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2Jn 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

 

[Wharton]

What was the price demanded? Equivalency was the basis of God's perfect justice. A life had to be paid for a life, according to God's law. The Life Adam lost for his children had to be cancelled by the offering of an equivalent life. Jesus came in the flesh as a sinless equal to Adam. He did not have to be God in order to pay the ransom....he just had to be sinless. Jesus was in no way inferior to the task.

Once again, if a perfect man was offended in the Garden, then a perfect man would be an equivalent ransom. JW's seem to have a problem with understanding that more than a perfect man was offended. God was offended as all sin offends God. Sorry but you need to upgrade your ransom sacrifice to more than a perfect man to be equivalent. Your ransom equation does not balance and God is really good at math.

BTW, why didn't Jesus just appear on the scene as a fully-developed, God-created, equivalent creature to Adam?

 

[Wharton]

There are Serifs and Cherubs who also rank higher than other angels. We only have brief glimpses into the heavenly arrangement, but we see that although these beings are powerful, there is no one equal to the Almighty Creator.....YHWH.

And they rank higher than an archangel. So why did God use a lower creation for a ransom?

 

[Wharton]

And you just proved my point. "Mighty ones" are indeed called "gods". Jesus was a god and so were others called "mighty ones" in the Bible...even some humans. It doesn't make them equal to the Almighty God....the one identified in John 1:1 as "ho theos". (THE God)

The God, God-er, God-est Fallacy.

 

[Wharton]

God has many "sons"...they are all spirit beings. Jesus is unique in his heavenly family because of his position and the manner of his creation. He was created first but given the ability to produce others like himself by holy spirit. He became the agency through which all things came into being. (Prov 830, 31) He has rank over his angelic brothers as their chief. As firstborn, he has the title "the son of God" even though others are also called "sons of God". Even Adam as a created being is called a "son of God".

Only God creates. Not angels, not Satan and especially not your created Jesus.

 

[cataway]

I'm wondering why you brought up the ED in the first place?

As I recall we were talking about Acts 20:28.that is the verse shown in the ED and that's what the footnote is for

 

[Wharton]

So the Father has a superior position but the son is equal? Sorry, that doesn't wash. All beings who occupy the spirit realm are spirits....all have spiritual bodies and all are unique creations as they are not designed to reproduce. They have powers that humans do not have. And apparently they are also endowed with free will.

Equal in nature/essence by being begotten by the father. Position has nothing to due with nature/essence. Just as you are equal in human nature/essence by being begotten by your human father. You don't beget an inferior nature/essence. Just change the NWT to only-created and you're good to go.

 

[Wharton]

Making God into a human is just plain silly. The Almighty is immortal and cannot die. Jesus was a spirit son who was not immortal and hence could offer his life as Adam's equal. This is why Jesus is called "the last Adam".

Ah, no. God takes on a human nature that is provided by his mother Mary. God is not made into a human.

 

[Wharton]

Yet he calls his Father "my God" even after his return to heaven (Rev 3:12).....how does that work? One equal part of God is worshipping another part of himself. No mention is made of the holy spirit in most of the trinity proof texts.

Where does it state anything about worship in Rev 3:12? Jesus does have a God in the begetting process in the same sense that you had a human in the begetting process.