Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Unification]

what is a "creature"? Is it not a "created being"? Does that not make angels "creatures" made of spirit?

Did not Ezekiel 10:15 call cherubs "creatures"?

He sure did. Ezekiel's temple has some beautiful spiritual symbolism.

 

[Unification]

Shouting will not make truth into fiction.

I guess it boils down to who is the dog and who is the swine then eh?
Who is the one casting the pearls? I see the reverse to what you do.

You stated your case. I have stated mine. If I'm wrong, I am without excuse now to my judge. If you're wrong, you are without excuse to the very same judge.

And in all of that, you did not answer a single question I asked you?
All I see is justification for your point of view....nothing more.
You keep repeating the same sorry tale, but none of it aligns with the teachings of the Master. His teachings are the only ones I can accept.

I'd be very cautious there. I'm unaware of which questions I failed to respond to. I've posed tons of unanswered questions.


Christendom has twisted God and his Christ into something they never were. You twist them even further.

I'm with you on Christiandom. We agree on more things than your mind realizes.

Then the spirit is failing to guide you. It is common knowledge that language changes over time and when we do not keep up with the changes, we end up with archaic words that are now the opposite of the originals. Even the KJV has been revised many times to alter the meaning of words that had changed meaning in English. But it hasn't changed enough. Its bias in translating passages in favor of the trinity is nothing short of disgusting.

I agree on the end of Matthew, that was an addition.

So when Jesus said "it is written" he was lying. He didn't need to depend on his Father's word to back up a single thing he said, did he?

The words mean nothing if they aren't understood spiritually and safely inside our hearts. Yes they are written literally, the Hebrew Scriptures that He refers to.

The apostles too treated God's word with contempt, just like you do.....?

You say that I do.

You are being led by a very destructive spirit and I hope you will see that your lone prophet status is not going to have any success. Your cries in the wilderness are going unneeded for a very good reason. Your words are not truth. What is "inscribed on hearts and minds" that comes from God, does not throw out thousands of years of the teachings of a God who does not change.

God doesn't change. Again, I'd be cautious with the judgements you are placing.

If we were to believe you, everything changes. We have to throw away God's word in favor of what you say....in favor of what you personally believe. Who else believes it? Can I ask you that? If the answer is "no one" then I really think you need to re-evaluate your position. Who are you attracting?
Sorry, your version simply doesn't wash.

I'm far from alone, you should feel blessed spiritual truth is revealed to you. Most of us dislike even debating and do God's work without trying to correct apostacy because 99% of the time, we are not received. I'm sure you know that feeling as well. What's so bad about change? This world and religion need change. It needs truth.

Expand all, please.

 

[Katzpur]

Jesus is not God. Jesus answers to God.

Why can't it be both? Why can't God the Father be Jesus' God, and both of them (in the capacity of the Godhead) be our God?

 

[Kolibri]

Why can't it be both? Why can't God the Father be Jesus' God, and both of them (in the capacity of the Godhead) be our God?

For clarity. And because the Greek grammar or wording does not actually support it.

In the KJV the word Godhead comes up 3 times. Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9. I believe this is a poor word choice in translating the Greek word thei-o'tes as "Godhead" or "deity" conveys to many the idea of personality, that is the state of being a person. However, according to Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon, the Greek word here means "divine nature, divinity." (P. 788)

Not questioning the KJV's accuracy in translating can lead to problems in our understanding. I will quote all three here for comparison so you do not need to look them up. And perhaps by seeing them in all 3 locations the impersonal nature of thei-o'tes may be discerned.

"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." - Acts 17:29 (KJV)
"Therefore, since we are the children of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and design of humans. (NWT)

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. - Roman 1:20 (KJV)
"For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable." (NWT)

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." - Colossians 2:9 (KJV)
"because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily." (NWT)

Anyhow @Katzpur I hope you recover swiftly and I will be looking for your return in a couple of weeks.

 

[katiemygirl]

Well, I'm going to be having an "eventful" week myself. The day after tomorrow (i.e the 17th), I am going in for a hip replacement. I keep hearing how hips are no big deal -- especially in comparison to knees. I'm really not particularly nervous, but I'll be glad when it's over. So anyway, I will be reading and posting tomorrow. After that, it may be a week; it may be two. Who knows?

In no way am I suggesting that the Bible is the problem. I know you think we Mormons don't have much use for the Bible, but that simply is not true. We love the Bible. As a matter of fact, in our adult Sunday School classes, we spend twice as much time studying the Bible than we do the Book of Mormon. I disagree that man is "always trying to improve on God's word." I like to give man a bit more credit than that. I believe that most Christians genuinely do want to correctly understand God, their relationship to Him and what He expects of them. I believe denominations arise when a group of like-minded individuals believe that their interpretation of scripture is the right one and everyone else's is the wrong one. I read a book once a few years ago. It was called "How Wide the Divide?" It was a noted Evangelical scholar and a noted LDS scholar in conversation with one another. When I first picked up the book to read it, I thought, "Wow! Robinson (the LDS scholar) is going to have Blomberg (the Evangelical scholar) for lunch. I can hardly wait to see this go down!" Well, was I ever in for a surprise. These two gentlemen (and I do mean "gentlemen") had the most fascinating discussion on several different topics. Neither one of them seemed to be trying to pick apart the other's beliefs. They simply wanted to understand each other's perspective. Perhaps spurred on by their respect for one another and their tolerance for their differences of opinion, I ended up understanding the Evangelical position far better than I ever thought possible. Even though Blomberg did not convince me that his church's interpretation was right, I could see for the first time that it was at least a possible interpretation -- and not just some off-the-wall statements which couldn't be backed up scripturally. I realized that he actually could quote passages that made his point. I would be willing to guess that most Evangelical Christians reading the book were probably just as surprised that Robinson was able to quote passages that supported the LDS interpretation.

It's nowhere near the gulf you have imagined it to be, Katie. Nowhere near.

I'm willing to work at it if you are.

I will be keeping you in my prayers every day. I hope the surgery goes well and you heal quickly. They can do amazing things today. Just do everything they tell you to do. Let me know how you are doing when you're feeling up to it. Send me a pm if you can. I'll try to get back on later. Meanwhile, may our heavenly Father keep you safe and heal you quickly.

 

[JM2C]

your really not a clever as you think you are

JM2C works very hard, as does Kolibri, at supporting what they believe with Scripture. I, for one, appreciate the time and effort they both put into their posts. Unlike you who drops in now and again with nothing to say except for telling someone they are wrong. It would be nice to see you put the same effort in that JM2C and Kolibri do. It would be nice to see you actually use Scripture.

A one liner guy, a hanger-on.

 

[moorea944]

what is a "creature"? Is it not a "created being"? Does that not make angels "creatures" made of spirit?

Did not Ezekiel 10:15 call cherubs "creatures"?

Actually, the orginal lang. is "creation". First born of all creation. But Paul is talking about the second creation, not the first.

 

[moorea944]

The tying of Jesus to Prov 8 is not really proof in of itself that Jesus had a pre-human existence. You are correct in that it does not explicitly say personified wisdom is Jesus. However there are other verses that show that Jesus life did not begin with his conception as a human, but much, much earlier. Here are a few examples:

"All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." - John 1:3

"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man." - John 3:13

"for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." - John 6:38

"What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?" - John 6:62

"He went on to say to them: 'You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world." - John 8:23

"Jesus said to them: 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me." - John 8:42

"Jesus said to them: 'Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been." - John 8:58

"No, but [Jesus] emptied himself and took a slave's form and became human. (Lit., "came to be in the likeness of men.")"- Philippians 2:7

When scripture tells us that Jesus "came down" or "descended" or "came from", it doesnt mean that he or they actually existed in heaven and came down to earth. John was sent by God too, doesnt mean that he was in heaven. And it doesnt mean that Jesus was in heaven too. Look at the manor in the wilderness, that came down from heave. Not physically, but it was from God. Same as Jesus. He was from God. Same as us. God knew us before we were born. Did we pre-exist? No.

 

[cataway]

When scripture tells us that Jesus "came down" or "descended" or "came from", it doesnt mean that he or they actually existed in heaven and came down to earth. John was sent by God too, doesnt mean that he was in heaven. And it doesnt mean that Jesus was in heaven too. Look at the manor in the wilderness, that came down from heave. Not physically, but it was from God. Same as Jesus. He was from God. Same as us. God knew us before we were born. Did we pre-exist? No.

John 3 :13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Jesus is the one that came from heaven and then shortly after his death ascended back into heaven .

John did not come from heaven , he was a procreated person . he was a servant . being a servant he could be sent .



(John 6:38) because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.


(John 8:23) So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.

(John 8:42) Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.

(1 Corinthians 15:47) The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.

(Ephesians 4:9) Now the expression “he ascended,” what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth?

 

[katiemygirl]

ah , but when I do ,I do use the scriptures correctly . if we could get you to stand back and see what the scriptures say and stop tiring to make them say what you want to say would help a lot.
fact is ,Jesus is not God . Jesus answers to God.

John 13:16


As God was greater than Jesus in sending him, so Jesus was greater than his disciples in sending them. Jesus made this comparison when he said to them: “Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.” (John 20:21, AV) So the Greater One sends the one who is less.

I will

A one liner guy, a hanger-on.

You noticed!

 

[JM2C]

There is absolutely no law against reading other bibles. our free app JW Library automatically includes the KJV and ASV along with the Byington. I am often comparing a verse rendering with these to see what other people are commonly reading.

You should try reading just the KJV or ASV

 

[JM2C]

None of this changes the fact that translators have often ignored Greek grammar when translating the 3rd clause of John 1:1 but have used the same grammar rule in other places where their theology did not disagree.

You have to get this into your head. You cannot exegetically interpret/translate the 3rd clause into your own translation/alteration, i.e., NWT, if you will base your understanding from clauses 1 and 2.

The word “en/was” is in imperfect tense means before the beginning “the Word” and “the God” –clause #2- were together or at each other side already as suggested in verse 18, “the only begotten God who is at the bosom of the Father”. There was no mention of any creation before the beginning.

IOW, they, the Son, i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ, and the God, i.e., the Father were together before the beginning, i.e., from eternity.

Can we pinpoint the exact time they begun this relationship from eternity?

WE CANNOT base on the word “EN/WAS” imperfect tense. IOW, THE IMPERFECT TENSE “EN/WAS” IS SUGGESTING THE TIME FROM THE PAST OCCURRENCE, I.E., BEFORE THE BEGINNING, AS INDEFINITE, UNDERTERMINE, UNDIFINE.

IOW, TIME IS IRRELEVANT BEFORE THE BEGINNING OR THERE WAS NO TIME IN ETERNITY.

NO HUMAN MIND CAN COMPREHEND THE MEANING OF ETERNITY IF WE COULD JUST FOLLOW ON WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD “EN/WAS”. SIMPLY PUT, “EN/WAS” OCCURRED IN ETERNITY.

AFTER THE BEGINNING HUMAN MIND DID COMPREHEND AS WAS DECLARED IN THE BIBLE, BUT BEFORE THIS ONLY GOD THE FATHER, AND GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN COMPREHEND ETERNITY.

IF NO TIME IN ETERNITY, THEN THERE IS NO CREATION, BUT ACCORDING TO YOUR INTERPRETATION THE Lord Jesus Christ WAS JUST A CREATION OF GOD. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?

 

[JM2C]

Well, that's the thing....we have already addressed who the son is from John 1:1. The Word (Logos) is Jesus and the Word became flesh. But the Word was not "ho theos". (THE God) The Word was "with THE God, but the Word was just "theos". (A god, a mighty or divine one)

You trinitarians keep ignoring this very important piece of information.

Calling Jesus "a god" was in no way making John 1:1 differ from what is said in the original Greek nor was it making the Word equal with his Father.

John 1:1 does not say what trinitarians want it to say. In fact it presents a different God altogether to the one Jesus himself worshipped. Nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be God Almighty....not once.

This is what your leader is or was teaching you, but you cannot prove this exegetically as I did in post #1378. You have nothing but your recycled rhetorical arguments.

Did you really understand post #1378?

 

[Unification]

For clarity. And because the Greek grammar or wording does not actually support it.

In the KJV the word Godhead comes up 3 times. Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9. I believe this is a poor word choice in translating the Greek word thei-o'tes as "Godhead" or "deity" conveys to many the idea of personality, that is the state of being a person. However, according to Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon, the Greek word here means "divine nature, divinity." (P. 788)

Not questioning the KJV's accuracy in translating can lead to problems in our understanding. I will quote all three here for comparison so you do not need to look them up. And perhaps by seeing them in all 3 locations the impersonal nature of thei-o'tes may be discerned.

"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." - Acts 17:29 (KJV)
"Therefore, since we are the children of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and design of humans. (NWT)

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. - Roman 1:20 (KJV)
"For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable." (NWT)

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." - Colossians 2:9 (KJV)
"because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily." (NWT)

Anyhow @Katzpur I hope you recover swiftly and I will be looking for your return in a couple of weeks.

The Godhead is bodily, inside humans.

 

[Unification]

When scripture tells us that Jesus "came down" or "descended" or "came from", it doesnt mean that he or they actually existed in heaven and came down to earth. John was sent by God too, doesnt mean that he was in heaven. And it doesnt mean that Jesus was in heaven too. Look at the manor in the wilderness, that came down from heave. Not physically, but it was from God. Same as Jesus. He was from God. Same as us. God knew us before we were born. Did we pre-exist? No.

Coming down from heaven to earth is coming down from inside our heads down through our bodies.

 

[Unification]

Coming down from heaven to earth is coming down from inside our heads down through our bodies.

Isaiah 11:1King James Version (KJV)
11 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: ....... What has a stem inside of your head?

 

[Unification]

For clarity. And because the Greek grammar or wording does not actually support it.

In the KJV the word Godhead comes up 3 times. Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9. I believe this is a poor word choice in translating the Greek word thei-o'tes as "Godhead" or "deity" conveys to many the idea of personality, that is the state of being a person. However, according to Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon, the Greek word here means "divine nature, divinity." (P. 788)

Not questioning the KJV's accuracy in translating can lead to problems in our understanding. I will quote all three here for comparison so you do not need to look them up. And perhaps by seeing them in all 3 locations the impersonal nature of thei-o'tes may be discerned.

"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." - Acts 17:29 (KJV)
"Therefore, since we are the children of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and design of humans. (NWT)

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. - Roman 1:20 (KJV)
"For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable." (NWT)

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." - Colossians 2:9 (KJV)
"because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily." (NWT)

Anyhow @Katzpur I hope you recover swiftly and I will be looking for your return in a couple of weeks.

JW's believe the Holy Spirit is energy, and to be saved, is through knowledge of God. Where does this knowledge come from? How is it transmitted through a human? What is light?
If one could only apply the scriptures to WITHIN now.

 

[Unification]

JW's believe the Holy Spirit is energy, and to be saved, is through knowledge of God. Where does this knowledge come from? How is it transmitted through a human? What is light?
If one could only apply the scriptures to WITHIN now.

Jesus said, "I am the truth and the life." Maybe this perhaps is the best scripture to take as literal as possible.

 

[JM2C]

Again a blind quote. Where does it say "whoever believes that the Son is God, has eternal life"? Where does it say "rejecting the Son" means not believing that he is a god of equal standing with the Father, who has no equal? You read into scripture things which are not here.

We accept Jesus for who the scriptures say he is, not what an apostate church made him into 400 years after he died.

If you cannot understand the beginning of this chapter, i.e., John 1:1 then how could you understand that John 3:18 is literally talking about your unbelief? You simply cannot understand all these things because you were chosen by God NOT to believe in the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that is, “And the Word was God”. IOW, you were chosen by God to believe that the Lord Jesus is an “a god” and not “And the Word was God”

2TH 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2TH 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

“but took pleasure in wickedness” MT 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Remember those deeds, your righteous deeds that you kept on posting here?

You see the pattern here? These verses are talking about you guys/jw.

MT 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

We have never claimed to be prophets. It's not against any law to hope or to express that hope.

Their church is the self-proclaimed prophet of God, The Watchtower, April 1,
1972, p. 197.
Now who is the liar?

 

[Katzpur]

When scripture tells us that Jesus "came down" or "descended" or "came from", it doesnt mean that he or they actually existed in heaven and came down to earth.

If it says He descended, why would you think it doesn't mean that?

John was sent by God too, doesnt mean that he was in heaven. And it doesnt mean that Jesus was in heaven too.

If John wasn't in Heaven, where was he?

He was from God. Same as us. God knew us before we were born. Did we pre-exist? No.

Yes.