Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[jtartar]

I was talking to a Lutheran Pastor the other day and he said God provided the greatest gift when he offered himself up as Jesus on the cross. But from what I read in the Bible, when Jesus was on the cross, he spoke to God in heaven. How then can he be God at the same time? Please explain. Thanks

Youtellme,
I have been trying for years to understand why anyone would believe that the Only True God is a trinity.
Three times while Jesus was on earth God spoke o him from heaven, Matt 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:28.
Two times it is recorded in the Bible that Jehovah God was sitting on His throne and Jesus came into His presence to receive something from the One sitting on the throne, Dan 7:13,14, Rev 5:6-8.
Jesus said that the Father is his Father and our Father, his God and our God, John 20:17, Rev 3:12.
The Bible says that God is Jesus' head, just as Jesus is head of the man, 1Cor 11:3.
The Bible says that Jesus belongs to God, 1Cor 3:23.
The Bible says in several places that God is ONE, Deut 6:4, Gal 3:20, Mark 12:29,32, Zech 14:9.
Jesus does not know everything that God knows, Matt 24:36.
Jesus does not own everything or control everything, Matt 20:23.
Jesus fell to the ground and prayed fervently to God many times, Matt 26:39. Why would Jesus pray to himself???
Please let me know why people continue to believe in a trinity.

 

[sojourner]

I have been trying for years to understand why anyone would believe that the Only True God is a trinity.

I have been trying for years to understand why anyone wouldn't believe that God is in Trinity.

Jesus didn't "pray to himself." Jesus prayed to the Father. Two particular Persons, connecting in prayer.

What's so difficult about one being; three distinct Persons?

 

[Muffled]

What's the point of Jesus asking his Father to forgive for they know not what they do, if he's the father. Also, read all of John 17 and see how that makes sense in your context.

I believe the point is that Jesus was saying this in the presence of those who were crucifying Him but they did not believe that He and the Father were one so only forgiveness from the Father would be relevant to them.

Yes. I believe it makes sense as a heard prayer. It had to be heard to be recorded.

 

[Muffled]

Thanks for that. That's how I see it too. Being in the form of God does not make you God.

I believe that is True. God is Spirit and we are spirit also. However the Spirit of God is very different from our spirit because His is infinte and ours is finite. Therefore Jesus being in the form of God actually is unique to Him.

I believe you should do as Jesus says and get eye salve. (Metaphysically speaking)

 

[Muffled]

This site really isn't about discussion or a place to actually get answers. This thread started with a request for an explanation - "Can someone explain...." And the very first response is from someone who feels the need to express their personal opinions that have NOTHING to do with the question. And in fact, to slam the concept the question is about. Why is that? That smacks of .... arrogance for sure. And no, this response in this thread is in no way... no way by far... rare. It is the norm here. That sort of response smacks of .... what... narcissistic fear? Are you honestly not able to sit back and let other people discuss something without having to throw in your contrary two cents??

ETA: no, that sort of post is NOT debate.

However I did explain in post #13. I believe a thread in the debate section that raises an issue is subject to debate. It is also reasonable to question the premises as well as the conclusion.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

I was talking to a Lutheran Pastor the other day and he said God provided the greatest gift when he offered himself up as Jesus on the cross. But from what I read in the Bible, when Jesus was on the cross, he spoke to God in heaven. How then can he be God at the same time? Please explain. Thanks

The Trinity is one of my favorite subjects in Christian Theology, and since everyone else failed to actually answer the question, I will answer it, without giving you history lessons and without the religious babble.

The Trinity is the concept of the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit being three distinct persons, but all three share the same nature as "God". This means that all three have the nature of divinity, namely, God. So the Father, of course, is God. The Son and the Holy Spirit are also God. All three share the same divine nature, yet they are three distinctive persons.

Now, you mentioned when Jesus spoke to God on the cross. He did speak to God, but he spoke to God the Father. A false misconception of the Trinity is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same person, just revealed at different times. This is not true. Jesus was speaking to the first person of the Trinity, the Father.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Youtellme,
I have been trying for years to understand why anyone would believe that the Only True God is a trinity.

Because Trinitarians believe that the Holy Trinity is a clear concept in the bible.

Three times while Jesus was on earth God spoke o him from heaven, Matt 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:28.

And?

Two times it is recorded in the Bible that Jehovah God was sitting on His throne and Jesus came into His presence to receive something from the One sitting on the throne, Dan 7:13,14, Rev 5:6-8.

And?

Jesus said that the Father is his Father and our Father, his God and our God, John 20:17, Rev 3:12.

And?

The Bible says that God is Jesus' head, just as Jesus is head of the man, 1Cor 11:3.
The Bible says that Jesus belongs to God, 1Cor 3:23.
The Bible says in several places that God is ONE, Deut 6:4, Gal 3:20, Mark 12:29,32, Zech 14:9.

And?

Jesus does not know everything that God knows, Matt 24:36.

Phil 2:5-9 states that before Jesus came to earth he had a divine nature so he had to "lower" himself to become a man. When he lowered himself, he became temporarily limited in his knowledge as any human would be. Secondly, look at John 21:7...

"The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep."

Jesus didn't say deny this attribute of omniscience. Thirdly, Revelations 19:12 state...

"His (Jesus) eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself."

So based on this scripture, there is at least one thing that Jesus know that the Father doesn't, right? I don't think so.

Jesus does not own everything or control everything, Matt 20:23.

When Jesus lowered his divine position in heaven (Phil 2:5-9), everything became the Father's.

Jesus fell to the ground and prayed fervently to God many times, Matt 26:39. Why would Jesus pray to himself???

He wasn't praying to himself, he was praying to the first person of the Trinity, the Father.

Please let me know why people continue to believe in a trinity.

This is what I want you to do, read John 1:1, and once you do that, immediately read John 1:14. After you read both scriptures, what do you come up with?

:beach:

 

[John Martin]

Christianity believes that Jesus Christ is one hundred percent divine and one hundred percent human, fully human and fully divine. The way it is explained is very difficult to comprehend. So I tried to explain to myself in this way. Jesus Christ was born in the Jewish tradition in which God is understood as a creator and human beings are creatures of God. In his spiritual experience Jesus transcended this relationship and first realized as the Son of God( not a creature of God but manifestation of God) and finally one with God( the Father and I are one). We can imagine God like the Sun and the body and mind of Jesus are like the mirror. The Sun reflects in the mirror. This reflection identifies with the body and mind feels that it is one hundred percent human. It relates with God as a creature and God as creator. When this reflection tries to find from where it comes it discovers that its source is the Sun and at the source is one with the Sun or God. Since this reflection is still connected to the body and mind it stills feels human. So at one end it is fully divine and at another end it is fully human. The human consciousness oscillates between these two poles. it is the divine reflection that identifies with the body and mind prays to God. Since Jesus consciousness is connected to the body and mind he continues to behave like a human being. So on one side he is divine and other side he is human. Divinity is his foundation and humanity is its manifestation. This understanding helps me.

 

[dantech]

Can someone explain the trinity to you?

The answer is NO. It's something you either understand on your own, or you never will, ever!

I'm part of the second group.

 

[LuisDantas]

As I picture it, the trinity is basically an exercise of perspective. God is Father when he acts as an enforcer or forbider, Son when he cares and understands the needs of people, and Holy Spirity when he exercises his gifts.

Not that I believe in God or Trinity, mind you.

 

[Shermana]

Can someone explain the trinity to you?

The answer is NO. It's something you either understand on your own, or you never will, ever!

I'm part of the second group.

The official position is that it's "Too great for the human mind to understand" for a reason....

Arianism however, is simple and has no complications and easily reflects the Targumic concept of the Memra.

 

[rusra02]

I was talking to a Lutheran Pastor the other day and he said God provided the greatest gift when he offered himself up as Jesus on the cross. But from what I read in the Bible, when Jesus was on the cross, he spoke to God in heaven. How then can he be God at the same time? Please explain. Thanks

I think the answer is obvious. He cannot be God, and he is not God. Jesus referred to himself as God's Son, not God. (John 3:16)

 

[Muffled]

The Trinity is one of my favorite subjects in Christian Theology, and since everyone else failed to actually answer the question, I will answer it, without giving you history lessons and without the religious babble.

The Trinity is the concept of the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit being three distinct persons, but all three share the same nature as "God". This means that all three have the nature of divinity, namely, God. So the Father, of course, is God. The Son and the Holy Spirit are also God. All three share the same divine nature, yet they are three distinctive persons.

Now, you mentioned when Jesus spoke to God on the cross. He did speak to God, but he spoke to God the Father. A false misconception of the Trinity is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same person, just revealed at different times. This is not true. Jesus was speaking to the first person of the Trinity, the Father.

I believe this is blasphemy because it is a three God concept.

I believe it is not a misconception but a true assessment of the word of God.

This is not the case. There are instances where God reveals Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit all at the same time.

That is the appearance, that Jesus is speaking to another but He has no need to do that since it is Himself. He is saying a prayer that can be heard in a context that those hearing would understand.

 

[Muffled]

As I picture it, the trinity is basically an exercise of perspective. God is Father when he acts as an enforcer or forbider, Son when he cares and understands the needs of people, and Holy Spirity when he exercises his gifts.

Not that I believe in God or Trinity, mind you.

This is erroneous because God the Father acts in many ways including forgiver, mercy giver and savior.

However He also acts as judge and when He comes again as executioner.

He can do all things through us that He was able to do in Jesus and more.

 

[Muffled]

I think the answer is obvious. He cannot be God, and he is not God. Jesus referred to himself as God's Son, not God. (John 3:16)

God's son does not mean God's son as a separate entity from God. It means that Jesus is God and a son of man. God is not a physical being nor did He have intecourrse with Mary. God created the conception in Mary, a virgin, and entered His own spirit as the resident spirit.

 

[allright]

Thee individual eternal beings in perfect agreement and acting as one

 

[rusra02]

God's son does not mean God's son as a separate entity from God. It means that Jesus is God and a son of man. God is not a physical being nor did He have intecourrse with Mary. God created the conception in Mary, a virgin, and entered His own spirit as the resident spirit.

Of course Jesus is a separate entity from his Father. He SENT his son, as John3:16 states. He did not become his son, nor did God enter into Mary's womb. Please see John 8:17,18 that mentions Jesus and God are two separate persons.

 

[Shermana]

Thee individual eternal beings in perfect agreement and acting as one

You're saying God is 3 different beings "acting as one"?

I thought the "persons" weren't different "beings" in the Classical definition.

And in that case, what exactly is a "person" and how is it different than the Modalist understanding?

 

[allright]

You're saying God is 3 different beings "acting as one"?

I thought the "persons" weren't different "beings" in the Classical definition.

And in that case, what exactly is a "person" and how is it different than the Modalist understanding?

Correct translation of Genesis 1:1

In the beginning the Gods created the heavens and the earth

Spare me the "classical definitions" and "Modalist understanding" or any other intellectual hogwash

 

[Shermana]

Correct translation of Genesis 1:1

In the beginning the Gods created the heavens and the earth

Spare me the "classical definitions" and "Modalist understanding" or any other intellectual hogwash

Actually I agree with this interpretation.

But the problem is that it's not "multiple Gods in one being", it's "the gods' as in the Angels, the Heavenly Court. It's referring to multiple divine beings of whom THE god, the "god of the gods", the "most high god" is in charge of. We also know that "Elohim" can in fact be used in the singular as its used to refer to singular angels. This is actually the standard Jewish interpretation, that the "Us" in 1:26 is in fact the Angels. However, it is "gods" and not "the gods", just to be precise. The Joseph Smith interpretation in the Book of Abraham is one of the few works that translates it as such for the record.

But I don't understand why you consider it "intellectual hogwash" to bring up criticisms of the standard Trinitarian view and why they may relate to Modalism. What am I sparing you from, actual debate?