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Can something exist and not exist at the same time ?

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You mean deduction, right?



Not just unknown. It is impossible.

Well, in both cases so far, that is the induction problem. That it is so far, doesn't make it so, that it will be that for all time and place. unless you believe you can know something as absolutely so.

Edit: Second thought. Yes, it is also in a sense about deduction. But that runs into the problem that it assumes that the universe is in effect orderly.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Well, in both cases so far, that is the induction problem. That it is so far, doesn't make it so, that it will be that for all time and place. unless you believe you can know something as absolutely so.

It is not even an induction problem since the law of noncontradiction is also used as part of deductive reasoning.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
I was on The Christian Fourm and say a question simaler to this and thought that it was profound so I created my own question inspired by that thread now just because I don't see a cat outside doesn't mean that the cat outside doesn't exist it just doesn't exist to my conscious perception.
This question was originally posed by the thought experiment called Schrödinger's cat that addressed the quantum state and the push toward modeling it with statistical methods.

In Schrödinger's original formulation, a cat, a flask of poison, and a radioactive source are placed in a sealed box. If an internal radiation monitor (e.g. a Geiger counter) detects radioactivity (i.e. a single atom decaying), the flask is shattered, releasing the poison, which kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation implies that, after a while, the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when one looks in the box, one sees the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and dead. This poses the question of when exactly quantum superposition ends and reality resolves into one possibility or the other.

This paradox was connected to statistical modeling and the back box assumption. The connected concepts of finite odds and level of uncertainty, essentially leaves both options open, within margins of error, so the phenomena does not experimentally resolve itself, until the event is over. For example, say there is a $billion lottery. The odds of winning can be calculated based on the same casino style math used by science. Each person buying a ticket feels like their ticket can be both a winner or a loser, at the same time, with hope and fear both ways. You can believe what you want to believe, since the statistical occurrence is not exactly rational, but leaves both options open, until the event is over; future resolves itself. In the case of statistical math used in theory, the black box stays shut, so it never fully resolves to the reality of one option. This allows bad theory to linger.

In the USA, Presidential Candidate Harris and her team, have place her in a black box, so we cannot tell if she is far left or moderate. Both appear to be true at the same time. While each side of the political isle can have their own belief based on black box uncertainty. That effect is based on deliberate ambiguity to create this black box irrationality. Reason is not allowed such as pointing out a person's career positions since that will open the black box, which needs to stay shut for the game to work. Politics uses statistical modeling such as polling and they know how to game the system with Schrödinger's cat scams. Russian Collusion was both real and made up at the same time for two years.

Say we placed God in the black box. Like statistical experiments, we watch the input and output, but keep the box shut, and use that to confirm or deny the theory of God. As long as the black box stays shut, God is both alive and dead based on output data called miracles. Both the faithful and faithless can be right. It is not a good way to do science, since it comes down to politics and opinions, but not reason. Statistical science should be called science lite, due to the Schrödinger's cat effect it can create. This can keep bad theory alive when it is dead or on life support.

One trick that is used is called risk analysis. Risk involves using fear to sway the brain when involved with Schrödinger's cat situations. There is a risk of having a car accident. If we have two options in the black box, and we attach the fear/risk to one option, that option now appears more likely, not due to reason, but due to the induced fear swaying your common sense; insurance companies use the black box.

This happened during COVID, with one side of the political isle pushing fear, to sway common sense within the ambiguity of the black box to shut down the economy. Millions of people were manipulated to believe what was not real due to black box math, Schrödinger's cat, and then fear/risk. That is the manipulation trifecta. The DNC Convention just added the fear mongering to complete the trifecta. Their base falls for it every time and never learns from the previous scams.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Well, you assume that the law of non-contradiction is so for all time and place. That runs into the induction problem.

You seem to presume that the law of noncontradiction is established an as an a posteriori principle, but it is rather an a priori principle.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You seem to presume that the law of noncontradiction is established an as an a posteriori principle, but it is rather an a priori principle.

Yeah, I do human cognition different than you. It even has a name in philosophy, cogntive relativism. In effect we think differently about how logic relates to the rest of the world and what it means to know something using logic.

BTW a principle is not a fact of the world. It is a norm for how you ought to think.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Yeah, I do human cognition different than you. It even has a name in philosophy, cogntive relativism. In effect we think differently about how logic relates to the rest of the world and what it means to know something using logic.

BTW a principle is not a fact of the world. It is a norm for how you ought to think.

You are not saying anything on this post that contradicts what I have stated.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
If entropy (change) is permanent that means there is always potentiality and actuality. And something that exists in potentiality doesn't exist in actuality.

To exist in potentiality, rather than in actuality, is not to exist.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one hears it, does it make a sound? If by 'sound' you mean 'acoustic vibrations in the air', the answer is 'Yes. ' But if by 'sound' you mean an auditory experience in the brain, the answer is 'No.

Does the sound exist? Yes and No

Sound does not have any objective existence. It exists only in the experience of hearing. Acoustic vibrations in the air exist independently of the experience.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Sound does not have any objective existence. It exists only in the experience of hearing. Acoustic vibrations in the air exist independently of the experience.
Sound can be measured in both frequency and amplitude, so sound has objective existence.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
I was on The Christian Fourm and say a question simaler to this and thought that it was profound so I created my own question inspired by that thread now just because I don't see a cat outside doesn't mean that the cat outside doesn't exist it just doesn't exist to my conscious perception.
Maybe something like a phantom limb, something that exists in the perception of an amputee in a way, but doesn’t exist as an actual limb.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Maybe something like a phantom limb, something that exists in the perception of an amputee in a way, but doesn’t exist as an actual limb.

It would exist in the mind as electro chemical actions.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member

Can something exist and not exist at the same time ?


The answer has to do with the difference between rational and empirical theories, with the ambiguity of simultaneous potentiality and actuality more common to empirical. This is due to empirical tending to use statistical modeling and a black box; Schrödinger's cat.

Let me give an example, at one time it was thought that earth was flat and was the center of the universe. The sun was observed to moved from east to the west. They could empirically plot the daily and annual path of the sun. Empirical theory does not have to be right in terms of reality. It just the placeholder for the best curve through the observational data, even if it misses data points. The flat earth center theory can remain, since empirical does not challenge that theory. While the good data plot appears to support it. Nothing is fully connected by reason. It is more of a method and careful documentation.

A rational theory is developed differently. It tries to explain what it sees, rationally, and predicts future data, before experiments, to see if this data touches the rational math curve. One experimental one data point will tell you, if you are correct, since the curve comes first based on reasoning in your head. Empirical draws the curve secondary and needs many more data points for a better curve. Then we explain the curve with the earth being the center, but not due to logic, as a placeholder since the data curve appears to average what we observe with all that data. We can use a mythological explanation since the data and curves is about observations and not logic.

The idea of the flat earth being the center and the sun rising in the east and sets in the west, can now be plotted. However, to the rational mind this scenario raises the question where does the sun go, when the sun sets? Does it burrow inside the flat earth, move eastward and come out the east side. to rise again? One may not be allowed to ask that question. We cannot plot that data, since we cannot see it. It might be seen as moot point.

However, you can still use reason. This question would be easier to explain, if the earth was spherical and the sun was orbiting like the moon. We would see only part of its circular journey. This is logical, but is not yet the final model. However, it does not ignore the hidden half of the data we cannot empirically see or use. We can make a math model; circle, to include the dark side we cannot see. I am working outside the box; black.

Based on this rational theory, I think up an experiment to prove my thesis based on my calculations. I will go 100 miles east and 100 miles west to gather data I cannot see from where we are. Will the sun continues on, does it burrow, or does drop down over the edge of the earth, and travel or bore below and rise in the east? What I see is sun continues west; spherical path? Now I can calculate sunrise in other places to the minute and can prove or disprove my theory with one data point.

Empirical by fitting the curve to the data gives a practical tool, but it leaves unanswered questions; hidden inside the black box. This is where Schrödinger's cat appears. The empirical theory was not a product of reason that tries to address these questions in advance. The rational model tries to iron out these things in advance. If an empirical theory comes first, the theory may not fit all the questions, and progress can stall, if the correlation seems to work; Evolution and genetics. All the missing links get to remain in the black box; alive and dead. Plus we see data only after the fact, due to the unanswered question still inside the box.
 
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