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Can Spirituality be Superior to Science?

exchemist

Veteran Member
I agree that's why I was trying to clarify the response.



My stance I think was stated in the OP. I don't see spirituality as part of reality.



Yes, so in understanding that, I'm looking to hear from folks with opinions other than my own.
I should have thought spirituality and science are both more in the nature of techniques, ways of exploring different classes of experience, than parts of something called "reality". One is a spanner and one is a screwdriver and each has its uses, but you can't expect one to do the job of the other.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I should have thought spirituality and science are both more in the nature of techniques, ways of exploring different classes of experience, than parts of something called "reality". One is a spanner and one is a screwdriver and each has its uses, but you can't expect one to do the job of the other.

Fair enough. That is a clear statement.
For myself, I have no idea how spirituality works as a tool.

I've tried, but for me it's like trying to squeeze lemon juice from a stone.
I get stuff. It's supposed to be spiritual stuff. But it just sits there being stuff for me.
For stuff there is science.
For spirituality there is stuff which I can't really see as anything other than stuff.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Fair enough. That is a clear statement.
For myself, I have no idea how spirituality works as a tool.

I've tried, but for me it's like trying to squeeze lemon juice from a stone.
I get stuff. It's supposed to be spiritual stuff. But it just sits there being stuff for me.
For stuff there is science.
For spirituality there is stuff which I can't really see as anything other than stuff.

You can't point to stuff. That is an abstract concept just like God. That it is just stuff is your spirituality. It is just as subjective as all the other versions.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Fair enough. That is a clear statement.
For myself, I have no idea how spirituality works as a tool.

I've tried, but for me it's like trying to squeeze lemon juice from a stone.
I get stuff. It's supposed to be spiritual stuff. But it just sits there being stuff for me.
For stuff there is science.
For spirituality there is stuff which I can't really see as anything other than stuff.

A tool to do what?

Science is THE tool to understand the details of how the universe works.The "scientific path" is learning how to form hypotheses, construct experiments to test those formulations and either prove or disprove them. The product of science is technology where the discoveries of science are used to hopefully improve lives and solve physical problems. And another aspect is that scientists train students in the scientific "path".

Spirituality or better the spiritual path is a tool to among other things explore why the universe exists. Various practices can be called internal experiments to test the hypothesis that the universe has meaning and that it's possible to directly experience that meaning. And some of those who have attained to that goal train students in the spiritual path.

Some people don't find "why" to be a meaningful question and some find it to be the most meaningful question.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
A tool to do what?

Science is THE tool to understand the details of how the universe works.The "scientific path" is learning how to form hypotheses, construct experiments to test those formulations and either prove or disprove them. The product of science is technology where the discoveries of science are used to hopefully improve lives and solve physical problems. And another aspect is that scientists train students in the scientific "path".

Spirituality or better the spiritual path is a tool to among other things explore why the universe exists. Various practices can be called internal experiments to test the hypothesis that the universe has meaning and that it's possible to directly experience that meaning. And some of those who have attained to that goal train students in the spiritual path.

Some people don't find "why" to be a meaningful question and some find it to be the most meaningful question.

My question is not what to do with it, spirituality, but how to use it.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
You can't point to stuff. That is an abstract concept just like God. That it is just stuff is your spirituality. It is just as subjective as all the other versions.

Umm, I have fingers.

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sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
My question is not what to do with it, spirituality, but how to use it.

I'm not sure I understand it. How to do various forms of yoga? Are you asking a practical question of how to practice? If not, please complete the sentence "how to use it to do..."
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I'm not sure I understand it. How to do various forms of yoga? Are you asking a practical question of how to practice? If not, please complete the sentence "how to use it to do..."

There is science that supports yoga. So I can do yoga for scientific reasons. I can meditate for scientific reasons.

Here's an example. I bought some healing crystals. The look nice, but they just sit there, looking nice. They don't do any healing.
Or, I pray. Nothing changes. I pray, I don't pray. It is all the same.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Yeah, but say you point to a piece of rock, a stone. You can point to it, but you can't point to that it is stuff, because the rock has no property of being stuff.
Stuff: matter, material, articles, or activities of a specified or indeterminate kind that are being referred to, indicated, or implied.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There is science that supports yoga. So I can do yoga for scientific reasons. I can meditate for scientific reasons.

Here's an example. I bought some healing crystals. The look nice, but they just sit there, looking nice. They don't do any healing.
Or, I pray. Nothing changes. I pray, I don't pray. It is all the same.

Ah, you are asking how to distinguish marketing hype, fakery, misguided people etc from the very few who are real. This is a real problem and one that has been faced in India for uncounted centuries. One of my favorite quotes is about the sea of hypocritical "saints". Tukaram is reported to have said Let their dead conscience be burnt; it is no sin to thrash them. Others have commented on the same issue noting how few are genuine.

The second real question is asking how long the process takes. As I understand the history, the Higgs boson was proposed 50 years before the prediction was verified. There are really good reasons it took that long. Or to use other examples: how much effort does it take for someone with ordinary talent to become a world-class chess player, an Olympic-class gymnast or a top tennis player.

And while this is from Jewish spirituality, It applies to every spiritual path. And I know it's been the work of decades and will be the work of the rest of my life. Rabbi Tzvi Freeman:

Look deeply within each person you encounter, no matter how brilliant or dull, refined or crude, righteous or wicked you judge this person to be.

Beyond their clothes, beyond their skin, beyond their behavior, beyond their words.

Beyond the emotions they show, the personality in which they dress, past whatever masks they don to conceal their inner woes.

Look deeply and see the vicious war each one fights inside, the battle to remain human in a maddening world—a world you will never know, for no two of us are placed in the same world and no two of us confront the same challenges—

—the sickness at knowing one’s own failures and deficiencies, the yearning to be more, the disappointment at not being that, the struggle to fight every sorrow, every pain, every plummeting, disastrous trauma of life…

True, perhaps not everyone fights every battle. Some have long surrendered.

But the very fact that this person was assigned this battle tells us more than can be spoken, for the One who created him knows he has the power to prevail and win.

That alone is enough to admire, and to be humbled, asking yourself, “Do I fight a battle nearly as fierce as the one I expect this person to win? In what way am I any better?”
 
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