Can the universe create itself when it does‘t exist?

[gnostic]

when I was sooooooo much younger
Uncle Sam came to my school with a survey test
strict oversee......timed event

my test sore in science came back as …...superior

I was thirteen then

I've gotten a LOT better

From what I can see in the past conversation with you @ RF, I don't see much improvement of you comprehending science.

 

[Nakosis]

"How do you know?
I understand you believe this but how do you know? Did God show you his attributes?"

I understand it is well described and illustrated in the truthful religious knowledge, there are 99+ attributes of G-d. If the friends and mods here would insist I will quote the relative verses with the verses in the context. There is absolutely no compulsion to agree with them. Right, please?

Regards

That ok. It's a matter of believing in this versus proving it. Or a matter of faith instead of knowledge. As such, acceptance of this religious knowledge is completely arbitrary. So again, I can't really address your beliefs since there is nothing to actually support them other than your belief.

 

[Nakosis]

some believe the universe and it's Creator are as one
the chair you sit on is partly....God

I don't' believe that

Spirit first
Someone had to be First

then substance.....as creation

Since religious beliefs are declared and not proven, not really much to address here.

I try to keep my beliefs to a minimum, not to say I don't have them but not much reason to offer them in an argument.

 

[gnostic]

some believe the universe and it's Creator are as one

That’s what everyone would call - “superstition”.

the chair you sit on is partly....God

I don't' believe that

That would be superstition too.

Spirit first
Someone had to be First

then substance.....as creation

And more superstition.

Superstitions are like making assumption, and believing these superstition, even if they defied reality, defied nature...

...and defying nature, is what we call supernatural, which is something that science don’t bother to explain, because it isn’t falsifiable and isn’t testable..

The Spirit you talking of ill-defined, and even you cannot explain it, except repeating the illogical and incoherent “Spirit First” nonsense.

“Spirit First” isn’t an answer to any question or to any problem, but a claim, and a claim that you cannot test, observe, verify; it is a claim based on superstition, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I understand that nature as also the natural processes are created by the Creator G-d, science only discovers them and it does not create them. Right, please?

Regards

There's still no evidence to support that claim... repeating it over and over doesn't magically make it true.

 

[Koldo]

I understand that "nature" is a creation of G-d and humans don't know all that He has created and will create in future. He could have a "special nature" for special people like Messengers of G-d but nothing could be out of His powers, as I understand.
I don't believe in magic. Right, please?

Regards

If his powers are supernatural then it is magic as I see it.

 

[Thief]

You might get better responses if you cut out the petty insults and rhetoric (and yes, I know as much comes the other way but that doesn't make it right). If you want a serous discussion about scientific theories and ideas, you need to approach the questions with a more mature approach. If you just want to sling insults with people who happen to believe different things to you, please say so the rest of us can move on.

From what I can see in the past conversation with you @ RF, I don't see much improvement of you comprehending science.

you two could learn from each other

 

[Thief]

Since religious beliefs are declared and not proven, not really much to address here.

I try to keep my beliefs to a minimum, not to say I don't have them but not much reason to offer them in an argument.

if you 'believe' that substance can create itself......

then substance is God

there are 'beliefs' for that

I believe God is Spirit
and substance cannot beget Spirit

so....Spirit First
God as Creator
substance as creation

 

[paarsurrey]

if you 'believe' that substance can create itself......

then substance is God

there are 'beliefs' for that

I believe God is Spirit
and substance cannot beget Spirit

so....Spirit First
God as Creator
substance as creation

It will be more or most accurate to say that G-d who is attributive Being created both spirits and substance.

Regards

 

[Nakosis]

if you 'believe' that substance can create itself......

then substance is God

there are 'beliefs' for that

I believe God is Spirit
and substance cannot beget Spirit

so....Spirit First
God as Creator
substance as creation

Actually I was being sarcastic...

If you want to presume God then who/what created God?

There are two possibilities, I'm sure there are many more, that I can think of.

One, the universe has always existed, in one form or another so there is no need for a first cause.

Second, The universe becomes "God". Intelligent life absorbs all energy/resources until it becomes one singular entity. You are a billion cell all coming together to create a single conscious entity. Even now we share our conscious thoughts across the world. Slowly man will become one conscious entity. This conscious absorption will continue until it encompasses the entire universe and becomes a singularity.

This singular conscious entity, "God" will then expand into a new universe destroying itself in the process starting the cycle over again.

So in the second case, God doesn't exist, yet.

 

[Thief]

I still prefer …..in the beginning

as we still suffer...past present and future

motion is the pivot

if the universe is a singularity
in te beginning
Something (Someone) caused it to move

science leans......an object at rest will remain at rest

 

[Magical Wand]

Can the universe create itself when it does‘t [sic] exist?

I understand it cannot.

I don't think it can. However, that doesn't commit me to the view that the universe couldn't come into existence without a cause.

 

[night912]

I’m sorry to mods if I’m posting too many posts. I don’t know how to quote within one post on iPad. Anyways.. claiming the Big Bang one in 1.5 trillion chance dwarfs God is insanity. First try, presto. How does the Big Bang work according to atheism. Once nothing existed within absolute nothingness, time was or wasn’t eternal, then an energy formed within the inside nothing, morphed into the potential for space, then we don’t know if it went Bang in a bit, in a while, or a long time, but one in 1.5 trillion odds came true. It’s insanity.

I'll skip the ridiculous idea of how you were able to come up with the odds or your ignorance of the Big Bang.

With that being said, within context of what you said, the insanity is actually believing that a god did it. We have evidence to support that energy exist. We don't have evidence that the supernatural exist. So believing that the thing with a 1 out of 1.5 trillion chance of happening is not insane compared to believing that the thing with zero chance of happening.

Again, I'm just going by the context of what you said.

 

[night912]

Can the universe create itself when it does‘t exist?

I understand it cannot. Right, please?

Right, it can't. If true then that would mean that our universe didn't create itself. Right?
But a lot things can be said about how our universe exists. A universe can create another universe, therefore our universe was created by another universe. The universe can't create itself into existence if it's already exist (eternal universe). The good old, "God did it." Or, "I don't know."

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That’s what everyone would call - “superstition”.

Can we agree that the universe is one, that it is ordered and that order has given rise to that which we call life?

 

[night912]

Can we agree that the universe is one, that it is ordered and that order has given rise to that which we call life?

No. Because you must first demonstrate that only "order" can give rise to life, otherwise we can plug in just about anything in place of "order."

Ex:
The universe is one, that it is chaotic and that chaos has given rise to that which we call life.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No. Because you must first demonstrate that only "order" can give rise to life, otherwise we can plug in just about anything in place of "order."

Ex:
The universe is one, that it is chaotic and that chaos has given rise to that which we call life.

So let me rephrase, can we agree that the universe is one, and that it has given rise to that we call life?

 

[Polymath257]

Can we agree that the universe is one, that it is ordered and that order has given rise to that which we call life?

That very much depends on what you mean by those terms.

For example, multiverse theories are a possibility. In that case, there would be multiple universes but a single multiverse. I would assume you then would say the multiverse is 'one'.

Ordered is a tricky concept. Shall we say 'structured' instead? The things in the universe show patterns of behavior and those patterns are what we call the laws of physics.

As for order giving rise to life, that is also a rather vague statement. The structure of the universe is such that life arose. But so did stars, planets, galaxies, supernova, pulsars, etc. By focusing on life, you seem to be saying it is something that needs extra explanation.

 

[Polymath257]

It will be more or most accurate to say that G-d who is attributive Being created both spirits and substance.

Regards

Did God create itself?

 

[Sand Dancer]

My apologies, but I don't understand why people think that universe can't always existed eternally much like they think God can. What if I say universe is an unfolding and folding mass that always existed?

Don't get me wrong, I am personally more inclined towards the idea of God being the first cause, but my inclination doesn't make the idea more rational.

If God is the universe, maybe it always was.