Can the US afford socialized medicine?

[Storm]

Back at ya!

Majority of Americans Satisfied With Their Healthcare Plans

From your link:

Gallup's annual Healthcare survey, conducted Nov. 11-14, finds 57% of Americans saying they are satisfied with the total cost they pay for their healthcare, while 39% are dissatisfied. These percentages have been quite stable in recent years, after a slight dip in reported satisfaction between 2001 (64%) and 2002 (58%).
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IOW, they only surveyed the "haves" in the first place, and they still barely got a majority. Would you accept a survey on tax satisfaction that only included opinions from those who pay none?

 

[Autodidact]

Back at ya!

Majority of Americans Satisfied With Their Healthcare Plans

Yes, but Rick, how does that bare majority compare with the percentage in all those other countries that are spending twice as much?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Yes, but Rick, how does that bare majority compare with the percentage in all those other countries that are spending twice as much?

Not to be rude, I really don't care how they do it over there.

I will bottom line it for you. The senate lost their super majority when the democrats lost Ted Kennedy's seat. Health care is dead because democrats (even with a majority) could not get anything done.

Oh, they could pass the senate version in the house still and by-pass the new senate, but house democrats are focused more on mid term elections than they are on passing health care.

So really this thread has accomplished nothing. Everyone still thinks as they do and nothing has changed.

Bottom line, we win you loose.

 

[Autodidact]

So, to summarize:
We have the most expensive health care system in the world, by far. We spend about twice as much as most other industrialized countries. We spend more on taxes alone than any other country but one. We have a shorter lifespan, higher infant mortality, and poorer health outcomes overall, and we are less satisfied than the people in countries that spend less. But it's worth spending twice as much because...It's worth it because...it helps us...I give up--why is it worth it again?

 

[Autodidact]

Not to be rude, I really don't care how they do it over there.

You don't care that we spend twice as much as anyone else to get half as much? Why not? Do you hate America?

 

[Autodidact]

Bottom line, we win you loose.

And so does the country.

 

[Baydwin]

How much is your average American paying per month for health insurance?

For comparison, I paid $150 last month (based on current exchange rates) in what we call "National Insurance". That covers all NHS services, contributes toward my state pension when I reach retirement age, entitles me to incapacity benefit (for if I have a disabling accident etc). Apparently it also contributes toward an allowance for parents who are widowed and something called a "bereavement allowance".
Oh, and it's unconditional so people can't be rejected for treatment by the NHS due to underlying health problems, which insurers can discriminate against.

People who earn more pay more, people who earn less pay less, but everyone gets the same regardless of their actual contributions.

 

[Reverend Rick]

But it's worth spending twice as much because...It's worth it because...it helps us...I give up--why is it worth it again?

Look, you may not like the answer, but I will be truthful with you. Because health care is a big portion of the economy. People MAKE MONEY in that economy.

It is a recession proof industry. You want these folks to work more for less. They did not go to college and invest all this money in their career's to work for less money.

It's about money! People without health care want other folks money spent on them.

People with the money want to keep it.

You should at least frubal me for being honest here, or admit you where wrong about democrats being fiscal. There is nothing fiscal about BHO.

 

[Autodidact]

And there you have it. The people making money off our current system want to keep making it, and the rest of us have to pay pay pay so they can keep doing that. They have bought Congress, so there's nothing you and I can do about it, as long as we keep living here.

I hope it's worth it to you and yours, Rick, the dead babies, the people dying from preventable illnesses, the handicap to American industry, all to make sure that health insurance companies continue to reap in record profits.

I would frubal you for honesty, if what you were being honest about wasn't destroying the country.

The rest belongs in a separate thread.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Think of the poor health insurance companies! They need to make huge profits at the cost of Americans getting milked and then denied, poor national health, and more government spending on healthcare per capita than countries with single payer. Who care's that it's better for the vast majority of the population, or that even the super-rich will end up paying less for healthcare?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Think of the poor health insurance companies! They need to make huge profits at the cost of Americans getting milked and then denied, poor national health, and more government spending on healthcare per capita than countries with single payer. Who care's that it's better for the vast majority of the population, or that even the super-rich will end up paying less for healthcare?

It's not all about the insurance companies. It is about doctors and nurses which total way more people than the other side that does not have health insurance.

Lets remember that the poor get medicaid and EVERYONE can go to the hospital.

My town has a clinic that lets you pay on a sliding scale.

Many of the folks who do not have health care could afford to spend a few bucks on the occasional doctor bill.

What is with this attitude that health care should cost nothing?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Lets remember that the poor get medicaid and EVERYONE can go to the hospital.

... and receive the care that they need?

 

[Tiapan]

From outside the US really looks childish regarding the medical industry. In a life time most humans require a bit of medical intervention in the first 10 years then not much for the next 50 years then more and more as we enter our geriatric years. I am sure some smart yankee insurance salesman came up with a great product differentiation concept. Lets separate the market and supply insurance to the healthy 10-60 year olds at cheaper rates. Cool the execs say, its cheaper for the customer and low risk to us, beauty lets run with it. So it goes ahead, but now child and old age care is far more expensive, since the healthy are not contributing. Insurance premiums rise, doctors fees rise, so premiums go up so doctors fees rise, so premiums go up so doctors fees rise, etc etc a terrible spiral of rising costs. This leads to a society of "haves and have nots", this is dangerous because it leads to civil disobedience, and if taken far enough civil war.

The duty of a government is to gather taxes to protect and support its people. That means health, education, shelter, defense, transport and communications infrastructure. I see the US government, has reneged on most of its duty of care handing over to the "greed is good" private lobby. This ultimately will lead to failure.

From the figures Australia has a system which has better outcomes at half the price the US are paying. We have a system where you can buy private health insurance which gives you some advantages like choice of doctor and jump ques in the public system. But it also has a public sector paid through tax.

On the weekend I was suffering strong chest pains. I rocked up to the public hospital before the sports injury rush, was immediately attended to, had ECG, Chest xrays then angiogram in MRI machine, advised and given medication. I was released eight hours later, and it didn't cost a cent. (Well not quite the oxycodone pain killers cost $5)

Can you do that in America, if you don't have insurance?

BTW I heard in china they seem to have a unique type of system where doctors actually bid for the patient in a kind of auction.

Cheers

 

[Storm]

Can you do that in America, if you don't have insurance?

Usually can't even if you do. Most insurance plans have copays.

 

[Amill]

... and receive the care that they need?

They get a bandaid, booted out the door and then readmitted hours later when they're once again in respiratory or cardiac arrest. Even people working in hospitals see how ridiculous it is lol.

 

[Smoke]

Not to be rude, I really don't care how they do it over there.

I will bottom line it for you. The senate lost their super majority when the democrats lost Ted Kennedy's seat. Health care is dead because democrats (even with a majority) could not get anything done.

Oh, they could pass the senate version in the house still and by-pass the new senate, but house democrats are focused more on mid term elections than they are on passing health care.

So really this thread has accomplished nothing. Everyone still thinks as they do and nothing has changed.

Bottom line, we win you loose.

That's all true.

But this thread isn't about the politics of health care. It's about the fact that unless Americans are complete morons, who are simply unable to operate at the same level as the Europeans, the Canadians, the Australians, and the Japanese -- we could have better healthcare outcomes than we now have, and we could have them at a far lower cost than we now pay.

Sure, Republicans are evil and Democrats are only slightly less so. Both parties place corporate interests ahead of the interests of the general population. The Democrats have no party discipline, so even with the best intentions they're unable to get anything done. The Republicans have fantastic party discipline, and are usually able to make progress toward even their most pointless or destructive goals.
We're about as likely to get a single-payer healthcare system in the foreseeable future as I am to get a ferris wheel for my birthday. Everybody gets that.

However, pointing out the harsh political realities and saying Nyah-nyah-nyah doesn't address the question of why Americans prefer to pay a lot more money for a vastly inferior product.

I suppose the most likely explanation, as it is for almost all conservative sentiment, is fear. You think you can get better healthcare on the free market, or as close to the free market as you can get. You fear that the quality of healthcare available to you will suffer if we have socialized medicine.

Let's leave aside for a moment the morality of advocating allowing your neighbors to languish without adequate healthcare because you believe it's in your best interest to do so. In what ways do you think the quality of the healthcare available to you would deteriorate if we had universal healthcare?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Americans prefer to pay a lot more money for a vastly inferior product

hahaha

AND one critical aspect of a health care reform would be using the government to lower the cost of the health care that it pays for, just like insurance companies, but not for larger profits.

 

[Falvlun]

It's not all about the insurance companies. It is about doctors and nurses which total way more people than the other side that does not have health insurance.

Eliminate, or more heavily regulate the health insurance industry and cost of business will go down for everyone. Healthcare in the US of A is waaaaay overpriced. The health insurance industry helps to uphold these artificially, and often arbitrarily, exorbitant prices.

Lets remember that the poor get medicaid and EVERYONE can go to the hospital.

This statement has been shown to be false like a zillion times.

It also doesn't take into account the fact that it would be a lot cheaper in money and lives if people got good, steady preventative care and check-ups, rather than just going to the hospital emergency room when things are really bad.

My town has a clinic that lets you pay on a sliding scale.

Many of the folks who do not have health care could afford to spend a few bucks on the occasional doctor bill.

And you support this practice? But... but doesn't that mean rich people are having to pay more than poor people for the same service? How is this different than the abhorrent practice of making people who make more money pay higher taxes? Also, wouldn't the government be able to implement this sliding scale very efficiently through a government-run program funded by tax payer dollars?

What is with this attitude that health care should cost nothing?

I don't know. This is the first I've heard of it.

What I and many other people are advocating is paying for health care services through our taxes.

 

[Magic Man]

It's sad to me that there are people like Rick who just plain refuse to listen to anything they don't tell you on Fox News.

 

[Valjean]

They get a bandaid, booted out the door and then readmitted hours later when they're once again in respiratory or cardiac arrest. Even people working in hospitals see how ridiculous it is lol.

True. I'm a hospital RN, and it's ridiculous.