I cannot be reasonably certain that god wants.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Can We be Reasonably Certain That God Wants Us to Follow a Specific Morality?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
I think the Divine (however we define it) would like us to follow certain morals. HOWEVER, context is everything and you can't expect everyone to need the same morals. It's like telling everyone they have to eat peanuts or burn in hell and ignore the people who are allergic. I don't believe God gives "one size fits all" answers.
Happens a lot in the bible, too. Won a genocidal battle? GOD LOVES YOU. Get your butts kicked because you fought someone with iron toys? GOD ... well ... see ... iron ... and stuff ...
There are books or at least texts that far predate the bible canon, though. Do they get an opinion?
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Yes it did. It lifted words written by Rabbis out of context and is now trying to pass them off as being revealed from God. That is celestial-level plagiarism.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Please compare and see how Quran tells right matters and upholds the honour of Prophets.
Exodus 32 [http://www.religiousforums.com/bible/exodus/32/]
32 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.
2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden rings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
3 And all the people brake off the golden rings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
4 And he received it at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made it a molten calf: and they said, These are thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5 And when Aaron saw [this], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To-morrow shall be a feast to Jehovah.
6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt-offerings, and brought peace-offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, that thou broughtest up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: 8 they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed unto it, and said, These are thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
9 And Jehovah said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought Jehovah his God, and said, Jehovah, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, that thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, saying, For evil did he bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And Jehovah repented of the evil which he said he would do unto his people.
15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, with the two tables of the testimony in his hand; tables that were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome; but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it with fire, and ground it to powder, and strewed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
21 And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought a great sin upon them?
22 And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are [set] on evil.
23 For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.
24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off: so they gave it me; and I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
25 And when Moses saw that the people were broken loose, (for Aaron had let them loose for a derision among their enemies,) 26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Whoso is on Jehovah's side, [let him come] unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
28 And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
VERSUS
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1653®ion=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2
Further correction [plz read note which is contnuing from previous page]
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=117®ion=E1&CR=EN,E2
Last edited:
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Please compare and see how Quran tells right matters and upholds the honour of Prophets.
Exodus 32 [http://www.religiousforums.com/bible/exodus/32/]
32 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.
2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden rings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
3 And all the people brake off the golden rings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
4 And he received it at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made it a molten calf: and they said, These are thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5 And when Aaron saw [this], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To-morrow shall be a feast to Jehovah.
6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt-offerings, and brought peace-offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, that thou broughtest up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: 8 they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed unto it, and said, These are thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
9 And Jehovah said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought Jehovah his God, and said, Jehovah, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, that thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, saying, For evil did he bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And Jehovah repented of the evil which he said he would do unto his people.
15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, with the two tables of the testimony in his hand; tables that were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome; but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it with fire, and ground it to powder, and strewed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
21 And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought a great sin upon them?
22 And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are [set] on evil.
23 For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.
24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off: so they gave it me; and I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
25 And when Moses saw that the people were broken loose, (for Aaron had let them loose for a derision among their enemies,) 26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Whoso is on Jehovah's side, [let him come] unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
28 And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
VERSUS
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1653®ion=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2
Further correction [plz read note which is contnuing from previous page]
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=117®ion=E1&CR=EN,E2
I'm not really sure how it's related to what we were talking about before but I'll bite anyway. If you take something that someone else has written, even if you change one or two things, it's still plagiarism. Islam has taken Jewish stories, changed one or two aspects, and presented it as its own scripture. Plagiarism 101.
A specific morality, I think, would be implausible to conceive of for all people. But for own self (or own family), plausible. So taking notion of God out of the picture, I'd be very interested in anyone thinking a specific morality could be conceived of that works for everyone.
Gotta say that "specific" with morality strikes me as unusual, but interesting because it essentially provides straw man, I think.
Almost all morality assertions I'm familiar with are general and open to interpretation, certainly ripe for scrutiny. Like take "Thou shalt not kill." The word "kill" has many ways of being interpreted, and depending on what interpretation one goes with, it then can be scrutinized to point where the opposite becomes the moral obligation, i.e. when defending one's self against murderers, it is righteous to kill them.
As long as God is thought to be 'not me' (or not you), I think whatever the OP inquiry is getting at, will be elusive. Yet, if considering the idea (I'd say fact) that ye are God, then suddenly morality is not elusive, and is plausibly being experienced right now, and/or being updated in fairly specific ways on a daily basis.
While first hearing the notion 'you are God' may be vague and for some impossible to accept (at first glance), I do think it is pertinent to engage in that understanding for what this thread is aiming at. For the uninitiated, I would suggest just thinking of own self as having Internal Teacher / Higher Self that is fully aware of all that you do, say and understand, and is not limited in understanding of You to just this lifetime, nor limited by perception. This Inner Being I know to have very specific morality that works with where you are right now, and not basing morality on the elusive approach of "where you should be." This being has unconditional acceptance of who you are, regardless of chosen behavior. It truly understands Who You Are better than own intellectual self can plausibly ever conceive of, though impossible the intellect can forever deny the basics of what is, truly, self evident. IOW.....
Teach only Love, for that is What You Are.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Ok. Say you are God and want your children moral. First you have to define what moral really is. Next, everyone would have to have a copy of said information. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. Lots of gray exists in morality. Where will you draw exact definable lines? Who is going to police this with billions involved on just one planet. What about punishment? When do you stop and punish? What about justice? Aren't I due a trial to defend myself? Hey, is frying the kids really a solution???
If you ask me. that is all a mess. There has to be a better way.
If the results are all that matter, you allow your kids to freely make their own choices. By returning their actions back to them, they will discover what their choices really mean. In time, intelligence will make the best moral choice. Having discovered what evil really is through living it, evil will no longer be a viable choice. Of course, many have many lessons to learn. It could never be accomplished in one mere lifetime. That is no problem. There is Eternity to learn. The Result: Smart, Free, Intelligent and Moral Kiddies. Further, they will all learn to Love Unconditionally. After all, that is what we all want returning to us. Hey, no one has to write all those holy books out there either.
Which way would you do it?
Tumah
Veteran Member
You mean, besides for revelation?
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
like what?
Both.
Why would it not make sense?
So is consciousness defined by the ability to think? Or is that an attribute of a conditioned entity? i.e. is a thought something you experience, or is its presence somehow indicative of consciousness? When you say that a plant, animal etc is chit, do you mean it is a seat for cittam, or that prior to the material body of said entity there is in some a plant-jiva, a rabbit-jiva etc?
I have hopes to at some point reduce the number of question marks in these posts, but it will not be today
It is an attribute of a conditioned entity. I don't see how both are mutually exclusive. Is that what you are trying to say? Because i'd say both.
Yes and yes, all living things are jivas, and have an atma.
I apologise if my answer is not satisfactory, i am by no means adept in knowledge of Vaisnava theology and philosophy, let alone debating
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Who's god and who's morality are we suppose to serve ?.
arthra
Baha'i
I haven't participated in this thread up to now but I wanted to suggest a few things... There are at least two means by which we can gather I believe the "means or method" we can "know that God wants us to follow a specific morality".
The means I am suggesting is through the study of history and appreciation for the cultural norms and challenges that face humanity at various stages of development of civilization. I'm suggesting that we can begin to appreciate what issues or challenges were around in recorded history.
What records we have suggest that there were Personages in our history... which we call Prophets and Messengers (Manifestations in Baha'i terms) that stood out or made Themselves relevant at crucial times.. The life histories of these Personages is only partially known to us especially when we consider the remoteness of Their lives however in more recent historical times there are better records.
Secondly there are suggestions from the remote times that there were Covenants or agreements and close to what we would call today a Will and Testament to suggest what kinds of outlooks or behaviours are suggested to fulfill the expectations.
Well they seem quite mutually exclusive to me - if the form of Vishnu is one taken by the Lord, then it is not his original form, whereas if it is his ultimate form then it's not one he's taking but his real nature.
If it is the ultimate form, then this seems strikingly akin to the classical monotheist 'tribal king ramped up to 11' image of the Divine - i.e. a personage who is like a ruler with all positive attributes maximised that is the universe's most powerful agent.
Well if Lord Vishnu is a form taken by the Lord, then there's no reason he wouldn't take other forms out of His love.
It is an attribute of a conditioned entity. I don't see how both are mutually exclusive. Is that what you are trying to say? Because i'd say both.
Yes and yes, all living things are jivas, and have an atma.
I apologise if my answer is not satisfactory, i am by no means adept in knowledge of Vaisnava theology and philosophy, let alone debating
OK, let's step back - is cittam in some way a substance which can be conditioned? Is a jivatma conditioned chittam? Or is it impossible to condition cittam?
Haha, that's cool, I'm not the best at questioning
It is likely Vaishnava theology/philosophy rather than its explanation!
I think Plato's representation of Socrates as written in "Euthyphro" demonstrated that no, we can't.
http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/euthyphro/summary.html
Christianity attempts to deny that by proposing the concept of "Free Will", but that is ultimately just an useless, wasteful distraction from the relevant moral matters. Free Will is as unrealistic, self-contradictory idea as the God that it atempts to explain, but nevertheless many people spend inordinate amount of effort making the attempt to believe in both.
But merging the two does not fix either; it just gives people twice the contradictions to deal with.
By necessity, any moral directives that one might have must derive from something distinct from the simple belief that God exists.
We do not, unless we decide to adhere to some understanding of some deity that specifically supports that morality. Which is proper, fair and useful, but still very much a matter of the morality defining the deity instead of the other way around.
If I may:
Because it has been found to the adherent's satisfaction to give constructive results.
Moral discernment is a marvelous and valuable ability. One that all people, particularly the religious, should certainly nurture.
It is also an interesting question to consider.
How can things, beliefs and understandings that God would disapprove of exist?
How can we explain that those are not self-evident even to those who promote them?
Should we assume that they are lying or somehow disturbed? If so, then why did God allow that in the first place? If not, then what reason do we have to believe that God cares about those things either way?
As far as classical monotheism goes, I'm largely in agreeement. I think only God exists and all forms are His/Her play, essentially.
I must say, and i apologise for being so forth-coming, but speculating about Lord Visnu will get one nowhere. He is beyond this distinction. I apologise my answer is unsatisfactory, i am no advanced devotee.
Again, He has done this innumerable times, his other forms you speak of are Lord Krsna, Lord Ramachandra, Lord Narasimha, and many more. They are taken out of His causeless mercy.
OK, let's step back - is cittam in some way a substance which can be conditioned? Is a jivatma conditioned chittam? Or is it impossible to condition cittam?
Haha, that's cool, I'm not the best at questioning
All jivas in the material world are conditioned, through Vasudeva's maya, and their karmic records. Could you give me a definition of 'conditioned'? If you mean Narayana has complete influence over all chit, yes, all chit and achit is conditioned, whether in samsara or not.
Apologies for being a dummy
How about, what is is.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
If god did, I'm sure we'd get a personal visit from god and a book that doesn't contain contradictions, inconsistencies, and not a trace of historical, mathematical, or scientific errors.