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Can we change our mind about what we believe?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is what you assume
I wrote, "Scripture tells them what to believe, and they do so passively and uncritically."

It's what I have concluded. Assumptions are premises. I've seen multiple examples of religious belief and explanations for why they believe what they do.
it certainly isn't a reason to believe, if you think they are NOT sincere.
Does that mean that you agree that being sincere isn't reason enough to believe them, or does it mean that you preferred to not address the comment and chose to deflect instead?
'correct' as in a particular creed, or 'correct' as in what Jesus taught us about our Father (God) is true?
Both, but does it matter?

That was an answer to, "Notice that that may be a practical advantage of getting on the local religious bandwagon, but not a reason to believe that one's tribe's religious beliefs are correct."

Can I assume that you agree with my comment? Once again, rather than address it, you deflected to a question
We all have psychological needs .. are you pretending that you don't?
No, I'm telling you that I don't decide what's true based in them.
If a man was a Messenger of God and what I have presented is NOT evidence, then what would be the evidence?
It's the evidence YOU claim supports your belief that the Mesenger was channeling a deity in his words and deeds. I haven't found any. You say you have.
That is why Baha'u'llah offered other evidence that we should look at -- His Person and His Revelation (which is what He accomplished on His earthly Mission and can be read about in the history of the Baha'i Faith.)
What I've seen looks like an ordinary man living an ordinary life and writing ordinary words. You say that you see more, but never say specifically what looks like a god was responsible - just categories as you have again above. What about his person or revelation are your evidence? If you won't say, then it's reasonable to assume that you have none, just that platitude.
How else could a deity communicate such that everyone could receive the message if not in words? Please give me a logical answer.
I suppose that depends on how powerful the deity was. But that eludes the point. This specific deity, if it exists, has not demonstrated that fact to the satisfaction of mankind, which is why we have so many religions and denominations, each able to convince adherents of the reality of its disparate gods.
Look at the pot calling the kettle black.
The pot was red in that image. Shouldn't it be black for the saying to have the meaning it does? The kettle also wasn't black.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I pulled no switcheroo. You simply misunderstood what I was referring to.
You did not mention "my own set of criteria that true Messengers of God have to meet. " until that post where I was saying the evidence was not even evidence. That seems a lot like a switcheroo.


It is not my fault if you cannot understand what I am saying, and that is exactly what is going on here.
I have not had any issues understanding what you meant.
Not only that, after I explain what I was saying, you contradict me and say no, that is not what I was saying, rather than just accepting my explanation, like everyone else on this forum.
You were saying the evidence was what the link claims all along. Once I responded to the link (which took time to read all that) you suddenly had a different set of criteria for evidence (which turned out to be worse). But was different than what you had been saying was the evidence. If you don't want that to happen, debate honestly. The problem isn't me.
I read this long Bahai thing looking for evidence, then when I say that isn't evidence its suddenly "no I have a personal criteria for evidence...."


Don't worry, I don't report people for misunderstanding, but if you call me a liar again I might report you since that is a personal attack and it is against the forum rules.
As usual, you seem to think it's everyone else and not you. Anyways, I attacked a statement as untruthful or deceptive.

What is against forum rules is personal attacks. Like telling someone to grow up and act like an adult in #425.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
So, if I read the claims made by this man that took the title "Glory of God", and then read what he says is the evidence that backs up his claims, and then come to believe those claims because of what he said is the evidence... how is that not "because he said so"? Who else is saying so? A Baha'i maybe? Who then tells you to read a book where the guy claiming to be sent from an invisible God said so?

I don't understand why that's a problem for any Baha'i to admit. All they have to say is... "I read his claims... And I read what he says is the evidence for his claims... And I believe him. He sounds like a very nice, honest, and spiritual guy. So, I signed a declaration card confirming that I believe what he says is true."

After some years go by, a person asks them about something that the Baha'i teaches, and they answer... "I believe that is the truth, because that's what Baha'u'llah said is true in his writings." It all comes down to "Because he said so."
Yeah exactly, it seems to come down to "it's true because he said it's true".
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I guess I'm too "dense". It's not because he said so. It's because TB said so. But really now... What would a Baha'i, a Christian or anybody else that believes the Scriptures of their religion are the word of God? They all say, "The Bible says this..." Or "In the Baha'i writings, Baha'u'llah says this..." I wonder who is the real dense one here. For any true believer, their Scriptures are the truth. If they say so, that is what is. And for the Baha'is, the most important Scriptures are the writings of Baha'u'llah. If he says so in his writings that is what's the truth.

But for those of us that question the validity of his claims, some of the things he says aren't true. And because for some of us, he says things that we don't believe are true, then that is evidence against his claim of being a prophet and spokesman for some invisible God for which there is no evidence of, except this prophet of theirs said so.

Sorry I'm bouncing this stuff off of your post, but I gave up on responding directly to TB months ago. I'd have to be dense to put myself through that torture.
Yes, it is, it gets tedious. Tautologies and circular logic and semantics really wears one down. There is more waiting for you, I saw it......
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Can we change our mind about what we believe?

@PureX said that one CAN change their mind, but they won't because they don't want to deny their current understanding of 'what is'. #523

I disagree. One CAN change their mind, and they sometimes do, if they get new information that causes them to change their mind. However, if they don't change their mind, it is because they truly believe that what they believe is true according to their current understanding. It is not that they won’t change their mind, as if they are stubbornly refusing to change their mind, it is that they have no reason to change their mind.

Why should anyone deny that what they believe is true?

Conversely, why should anyone accept any belief as true if they don’t believe it is true?

Why should atheists accept that God exists when they see no evidence for God’s existence?

I do not think that atheists are stubbornly refusing to believe in God. I take them at their word when they say that they see no evidence for God. It is not that they won’t believe in God, it is that they can’t believe in God because they see no evidence for God. The same holds true for me. It is not that I won’t disbelieve in God, it is that I can’t disbelieve in God because I see evidence for God.
I once believed in the Law of Attraction because I believed I had evidence for it.
When I took an honest look at my beliefs I found they were not justified and I was using confirmation bias to find ways to confirm my beliefs and ignoring counter evidence.

Sometimes if you examine your beliefs honestly you can believe there is no God because there isn't actual evidence. It requires a manipulation of evidence and attributing it to God. If that is not the case I would love to know how God can be evidenced.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Does that mean that you agree that being sincere isn't reason enough to believe them..
It means what it says..
i.e. the fact that they are sincere, is significant

I'm telling you that I don't decide what's true based in them..
I would hope not, and neither do I.

This specific deity, if it exists, has not demonstrated that fact to the satisfaction of mankind, which is why we have so many religions and denominations, each able to convince adherents of the reality of its disparate gods..
I don't think so..
The One G-d of Abraham has sent messengers from amongst ourselves, teaching us
not to worship 'disparate gods'.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
the fact that they are sincere, is significant
Not to me. Their sincerity doesn't help me decide that they are correct. They can still be mistaken.
I would hope not, and neither do I.
That was in response to, "I'm telling you that I don't decide what's true based in [psychological needs]." You're probably being sincere here now yourself, but that doesn't convince me that you are correct, either.
The One G-d of Abraham has sent messengers from amongst ourselves
I don't believe that, and that's my point. These messengers aren't believed except by a minority of people, which is why they would be a poor medium for a tri-omni deity to use. Apparently, the deity would need to make the case for its existence personally and directly to be known to the world.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
These messengers aren't believed except by a minority of people..
That is not what I perceive.
I see that civilisations have sprung up from belief in G-d.
..and Christianity and Islam still remain to be significant today.

..Apparently, the deity would need to make the case for its existence personally and directly to be known to the world.
G-d is closer to us than our jugular vein. He guides whomsoever He wills.
I can see no reason why G-d cannot choose to do that, in which ever way He sees fit.
In what way do YOU think G-d should communicate to us .. through a loud-hailer from the sky?
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
In the NT once can say Jesus rose from the dead and his spirit body appeared to people. It may not be true but there is something you can point to as evidence.
That is not good evidence at all. Miracles are only evidence for the most part for people who witness them. It is the same as with Baha'u'llah. His actions or personal qualities, and the profound things he said. Also there is the historical record of how this faith triumphed over time with only a few scattered believers at first. The character of the Christians also appear to have been good for about 3 centuries before everything deteriorated, though the knowledge of what they did is limited after all this time.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
What I've seen looks like an ordinary man living an ordinary life and writing ordinary words.
O SON OF DESIRE!
Give ear unto this: Never shall mortal eye recognize the everlasting Beauty, nor the lifeless heart delight in aught but in the withered bloom. For like seeketh like, and taketh pleasure in the company of its kind.
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Christianity and Islam still remain to be significant today
That doesn't contradict my comment, which was, "These messengers aren't believed except by a minority of people." The two most effective messengers judging by the number of adherents were Jesus and Mohammad, and neither is believed to be a messenger of a deity (prophet is how it's generally phrased) the majority of humankind.
In what way do YOU think G-d should communicate to us .. through a loud-hailer from the sky?
It would depend on what the deity's options were and what it wanted to accomplish. The title of the thread is "can-we-change-our-mind-about-what-we-believe." A tri-omni god certainly ought to be able to do that, and a deity that can control thought directly by reprogramming minds wouldn't attempt to communicate in words.

Unlike omnipotent gods, alleged messengers, however, must use words to reach people, and apparently no such words have convinced even half of the globe. If the world is godless, then you won't ever get a convincing demonstration of godlike prescience from any of these alleged messengers, and those who believe them are left trying to reconcile their claim of a tri-omni deity that wants to be known, understood, believed, and obeyed with the fact that most of the world is either unconvinced or unaware of these messages alleged to be of divine origin, and so he makes arguments like yours and Trailblazers to justify the relative inefficacy of messengers. She says that if this god is real, then that's how it chose to communicate, and it knows what's best. You ask how the god should communicate and then suggest something that would actually be more effective than messengers - a voice from the sky.
O SON OF DESIRE!
Give ear unto this: Never shall mortal eye recognize the everlasting Beauty, nor the lifeless heart delight in aught but in the withered bloom. For like seeketh like, and taketh pleasure in the company of its kind.
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)
That's a good example of a typical messenger's message. Are you offering it as evidence that it's source was divine? Any literate person could have written those words. You might consider it blasphemous or at a minimum disrespectful for me to say this, but that could have come from a Shakesperean play. It might have been a line in Game of Thrones. And if I found it in a fortune cookie, I'd have no reason to believe that it didn't come from the authors of such fortunes.

Here are some that I found online. Just throw in an "O son of desire!," change to into unto and you to ye, add -eth to the end of your verbs, and some extra poetic metaphor ("mortal eye" for man):

1700065995444.png


Here's the first one: "O ye viper small in heart and blind of eye. Know ye not that your foolish resentful and desirous heart harmeth thee? For thus it is written."
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm very fickle with my beliefs and how I see the world. I'm changing my mind almost non-stop.

Maybe its because of my current life circumstances, I don't know.
Welcome to the forum. :)

Sometimes I change my mind about how I view the world, but in 53 years I have never changed my religious beliefs.
My current life circumstances never seem to change either.

As I see it, I have to have a good reason to change my religion or life circumstances, and I don't have one.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
That's a good example of a typical messenger's message. Are you offering it as evidence that it's source was divine? Any literate person could have those words. You might consider it blasphemous or at a minimum disrespectful for me to say this, but that could have come from a Shakesperean play. It might have been a line in Game of Thrones. And if I found it in a fortune cookie, I'd have no reason to believe that it didn't come from the authors of such fortunes.
What this is saying is that you are looking at this with a mortal eye, so you can't recognize Baha'u'llah or any Messenger of God. Looking at it with a mortal eye is elaborated further in this passage by saying a lifeless heart can only delight in a withered bloom. This means specifically in your case that you have a lifeless heart in a spiritual sense so you see no value in any religion, but only in things that have little value in comparison.

This is not presented as some kind of evidence, because you won't see it as such.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's the evidence YOU claim supports your belief that the Messenger was channeling a deity in his words and deeds. I haven't found any. You say you have.
You say that His words and deeds are not evidence, so you haven't found any evidence
If a man was a Messenger of God and what I have presented is NOT evidence, then what would be the evidence?
In other words, what would constitute evidence for YOU.
What I've seen looks like an ordinary man living an ordinary life and writing ordinary words. You say that you see more, but never say specifically what looks like a god was responsible - just categories as you have again above. What about his person or revelation are your evidence? If you won't say, then it's reasonable to assume that you have none, just that platitude.
I cannot make you view the evidence the same way I view it because you are a separate person with a different mind. Do you understand that people can look at the same things and view them differently?

What is reasonable to assume is that I view that life and deeds of Baha'u'llah differently than you do. I cannot make you see Baha'u'llah the way I do because you are thinking with a different mind.
I suppose that depends on how powerful the deity was. But that eludes the point. This specific deity, if it exists, has not demonstrated that fact to the satisfaction of mankind, which is why we have so many religions and denominations, each able to convince adherents of the reality of its disparate gods.
What does that have to do with how much power the deity has? How could an All-Powerful deity communicate such that everyone could receive the message if not in words?

The deity has communicated to the satisfaction of most of mankind, as demonstrated by the fact that most people believe in God because of one of the Messengers who revealed scriptures which led to the establishment of various religions over the course of time. Even many people who have no religion believe that deity exists. It is only a small portion of the world population who don't believe that a deity exists.

The reason why we have so many religions is because different religions were established at different times throughout history.
The reason religious adherents are each unable to convince other religious adherents of their particular God beliefs is because people are normally attached to what they already believe, which is usually the religion they were raised in.
The reason we have so many denominations within a religion is because people have interpreted the scriptures differently, to mean different things.
The pot was red in that image. Shouldn't it be black for the saying to have the meaning it does? The kettle also wasn't black.
It is interesting how you interpreted that image. The point being made does not require that they are both the color black because the point is not about the color black.
In most of the images they were both black, but here is another one where they weren't.
1700070228744.jpeg
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes you posted a nice picture. Except do you wonder why we are repeating things?

Did you happen to notice, the LAST POST I JUST RESPONDED TO was the same claim, same evidence, same everything, that I have established is not evidence, in no way is evidence.
Yes, I noticed, so why do YOU keep repeating things?
And then when I continue to tell you it isn't evidence, I get accused to being repetitive. The problem isn't me.
The problem will be you if you continue rambling on about what 'you believe' is not evidence when it is not in response to anything I posted.

What is not evidence 'to you' is evidence to other people. You just cannot seem to wrap your head around that because you cannot step outside of yourself. You are so biased by your own views you cannot even grasp the concept I am presenting.

By definition, what I have is evidence to me since it indicates to me that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.
By definition, what I have is evidence to me since it causes me to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What this is saying is that you are looking at this with a mortal eye, so you can't recognize Baha'u'llah or any Messenger of God. Looking at it with a mortal eye is elaborated further in this passage by saying a lifeless heart can only delight in a withered bloom.
Yes, I got that. I translate it as yet another exhortation for the critical thinker to lower his analytic filter and let belief in unexamined, in this case, to avoid being lifeless and withered. I've heard the claim, but my experience contradicts it. The lifelessness I see isn't in the critical thinker.

This is the same message another RF poster repeatedly posts wherein he disparages materialism and what he calls scientism. Those are also code for, "You need to change the way you assess reality and start thinking like I do." He and you are both correct.

The caricature of the critical thinker as an empty vessel reasoning like a computer and doing nothing else is incorrect. Here's one of my favorite examples of that. Here, the atheist is like a Roomba bumping into walls making measurements. Chopra also takes a dig at the religious, who he would probably call inauthentic and thus relatively lifeless, and he'd be talking about you (the smallest line says "is having your own experience"):

1690467130697.png


Your religion taught you to think like that. It's a self-serving meme demeaning unbelievers. But if you open your eyes around you and look at the unbelievers in the real world - the Sagans and Tysons, Twain and Lennon, Hemingway and Rushdie, Nicholson and Maher - these people are overflowing with life and passion.
This means specifically in your case that you have a lifeless heart in a spiritual sense so you see no value in any religion, but only in things that have little value in comparison.
Yes, I know. I'm a Roomba. No experience, just measurement.

Incidentally, spirituality has nothing to do with spirits. The humanist experiences nature as sacred. The god idea diminishes authentic spirituality in many cases by exporting the sacred from reality into a ghost living outside of nature which neither respects man or nature and which issues commands and threats. That's not close to spirituality. It's the opposite.

Authentic spirituality involves a connection to nature that creates a warm and pleasant feeling of belonging. Abrahamic religion breaks that bond. He is taught to feel like he doesn't belong in this world, which is fit for fiery apocalypse. That creates a sense of alienation, which, as I alluded, is the opposite of connection and a sense of belonging. The believer is an alien in his own body, which is scoffingly referred to as "the flesh." Worldly becomes a dirty word in this conception of reality.

As a result, too many people live life as if they were at a bus stop waiting for something to take them away to something better.

And you are correct. Religion has no value to me. And with all due respect, I see the Abrahamic believer as the lifeless Roomba thralls to an ideology that tells them they've found something special and the rest of the world who have not are less for it.
This is not presented as some kind of evidence, because you won't see it as such.
But it was seen as evidence, as is everything else that is evident to the senses. The skillful part is correctly ascertaining what it is evidence of. What I saw was a believer carting out flowery words that millions of others could have written and which he has accepted uncritically in the face of contradictory evidence.

Speaking of alienation and emptiness in religion (anti-spirituality), here's a verse from Dylan's Desolation Row:

Ophelia, she's 'neath the window for her I feel so afraid
On her twenty-second birthday she already is an old maid
To her, death is quite romantic she wears an iron vest
Her profession's her religion, her sin is her lifelessness
And though her eyes are fixed upon Noah's great rainbow
She spends her time peeking into Desolation Row

what would constitute evidence for YOU.
Evidence for a god is something evident to the senses that make the existence of a god more likely. I can't imagine what that would be that couldn't also be accounted for by an advanced extraterrestrial civilization, a naturalistic explanation.
Do you understand that people can look at the same things and view them differently?
Of course. Some will find value where others don't. Some will find beauty where others don't. And some will derive sound conclusions about what that which they are viewing tells us about reality while others will be unable to do that. In the first two example, there really is no right or wrong, and all opinions are as valid as any other, but in the third, there is such a thing as being correct or not. Thus, all opinions about what is valuable or beautiful to them are equal, but not all opinions about what evidence implies. Some opinions are better than others, such as those that can be shown to be correct.
What does that have to do with how much power the deity has?
If the deity can't communicate except through messengers and it wants to communicate, it'll need to settle for that. More powerful deities would have other options.
How could an All-Powerful deity communicate such that everyone could receive the message if not in words?
A deity that can create brains and program minds to, for example, have free will or not, ought to be able to download its message directly and nonverbally into minds by rewiring neuronal synapses to alter memory and change what they believe and how they think.
The deity has communicated to the satisfaction of most of mankind, as demonstrated by the fact that most people believe in God
Disagree. The majority of the world is monotheistic or polytheistic, and their thousands of religions describe different conceptions of a god. The Catholic god is not the Protestant god, and neither are the Muslim god. They most assuredly are not being communicated to by the same divine source. And the communication that makes people theists is not scripture or messages from messengers. It comes from other people exhorting them to believe and then handing them a book and a set of religious beliefs that they absorb uncritically. That was the case for me as well.
It is interesting how you interpreted that image. The point being made does not require that they are both the color black because the point is not about the color black.
My understanding is that the pot and kettle are both black: "The pot calling the kettle black - used to convey that the criticisms a person is aiming at someone else could equally well apply to themselves." If one is going to draw a cartoon, I think both should be shown as black. Otherwise, it means nothing more than the pot calling the kettle a kettle.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So please demonstrate which aspect of any one of those things provides good empirical evidence for someone speaking to a God.
You are never going to have any empirical evidence of someone speaking to a God, for obvious logical reasons.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What would be the point of a "what if" statement though? That also assumes that God is real and he sends messengers, both have to be demonstrated.
A "what if" statement is a hypothetical statement. Thus it does not assume that God is real and he sends messengers.
It can never be demonstrated that God is real and he sends messengers. It can only be believed.
That is logically the same as saying "it's true if it is true".
That is correct. It is true if it is true.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You were saying the evidence was what the link claims all along. Once I responded to the link (which took time to read all that) you suddenly had a different set of criteria for evidence (which turned out to be worse). But was different than what you had been saying was the evidence. If you don't want that to happen, debate honestly. The problem isn't me.
I read this long Bahai thing looking for evidence, then when I say that isn't evidence its suddenly "no I have a personal criteria for evidence...."
I never said that my list of criteria that I believe a Messenger of God would have to meet is evidence, so I never presented a different set of criteria for evidence. That is where the misunderstanding started.

My personal criteria of what I believe a Messenger of God would have to meet is not evidence.
As usual, you seem to think it's everyone else and not you. Anyways, I attacked a statement as untruthful or deceptive.
It was neither untruthful or deceptive. You just misunderstood what I was saying.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sometimes if you examine your beliefs honestly you can believe there is no God because there isn't actual evidence. It requires a manipulation of evidence and attributing it to God. If that is not the case I would love to know how God can be evidenced.
It is all about the way you think and view evidence. There is no proof that God exists, but there is evidence. However, you are so convinced that there is no evidence that you will never see the evidence that is right in front of your face.

Holy Moly! Even if Baha'u'llah had never come to earth, Jesus is evidence that God exists. However, because of how you view the Bible, you will never see that, not unless you change your views.
 
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