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Can we change our mind about what we believe?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
..specifically, about G-d.

@Trailblazer says in the OP:
"It is not that they won’t believe in God, it is that they can’t believe in God because they see no evidence for God. The same holds true for me. It is not that I won’t disbelieve in God, it is that I can’t disbelieve in God because I see evidence for God."

..no mention of belief in aliens..
What "evidence" for which God? Some religions do have a different concept of who, what and how many Gods there are. Plus, there is Satan. Christians believe there is evidence that Satan is real. How about Islam? Yet, Baha'is don't believe Satan is real. Beliefs and religious concepts vary from religion to religion.

Which doesn't bother me, because I believe people made up their religious beliefs and their Gods. For a religion like Christianity, many of them say the same thing. That all the other religions were made up by people and those people believe in and worship false gods that they invented. Naturally, for those Christians, their religion and their God is the one true God.

But you know what, Baha'is kind of believe that too, except with a little twist. They say all the religions were true "originally". Then people made up stuff and added it in. They probably even believe that about Islam.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
How do you meet up with God without seeing God?

Good question - How do two blind people meet up without seeing each other :) === but was not like that .. when 12 - had german measles - fever 103 - was so parched . skin peeling of me willy like a snake shedding its skin .. was so hot -- could not get away from the heat .. unbearable -- went to sleep -- then was lying on a the floor of a cool dark cave .. water dripping from the ceiling .. just remember finally escaping the heat -- then into the light .. up in this surreal place - like a salvador dali painting ... had a guide escorting me .. "Angel" call it what ever .. took me to God .. but didn't see anything in front of you .. only a voice ... asked "The Question" --- didn't know it at the time but guess this is a common question .. got fans of the Punk Rock band "The Clash" --- "Should I stay or should I go"

and that was the question .. hang here - go back.. I chose to come back .. obviously .. and thats all I know .. other than never been much afraid of death like most people .. No idea what where or how-for .. maybe just a cool dream .. but where the darn question come from.. 12 yr old kid in the 70s not gonna come up with that ? or are they :) har har har.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
One who has seen God - and realizes they have seen God - can not claim that God does not exist without contradicting their initial claim to have seen God.

No offence .. just logic. Your explanation "Maybe I didn't see God" -- does not change the contradiction .. as then you have not seen God :)

I too have met God .. but am not an atheist .. but agnostic to religion. Having met God .. I know that your claim to have seen God is false .. because when you meet up with God .. you don't see God :)
I think you failed to understand my previous response to you.
Wrong. One who has seen god can be atheist if they choose so.

They just have to understand that the mind is not 100% reliable at discerning reality.
I said the human brain is not reliable. You can meet god however you understand that would look like, and still doubt your experience due to a faulty mind.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Good question - How do two blind people meet up without seeing each other :) === but was not like that .. when 12 - had german measles - fever 103 - was so parched . skin peeling of me willy like a snake shedding its skin .. was so hot -- could not get away from the heat .. unbearable -- went to sleep -- then was lying on a the floor of a cool dark cave .. water dripping from the ceiling .. just remember finally escaping the heat -- then into the light .. up in this surreal place - like a salvador dali painting ... had a guide escorting me .. "Angel" call it what ever .. took me to God .. but didn't see anything in front of you .. only a voice ... asked "The Question" --- didn't know it at the time but guess this is a common question .. got fans of the Punk Rock band "The Clash" --- "Should I stay or should I go"

and that was the question .. hang here - go back.. I chose to come back .. obviously .. and thats all I know .. other than never been much afraid of death like most people .. No idea what where or how-for .. maybe just a cool dream .. but where the darn question come from.. 12 yr old kid in the 70s not gonna come up with that ? or are they :) har har har.
Oh now I see. You did not mean "meet up" literally, as two people meet up for a date. ;)
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter whether the book is ancient or modern
I agree. I only raise it in case you're one of the many who fetishize age. I'm glad that you're not.


If a person reads something on the internet, for example, and concludes it must be "the truth"
without further thought or study, it is not an intelligent conclusion.
I am unsure of what you mean by truth. I generally go with Correspondence. Are you okay with that?


You speak as if that is all the Bible or Qur'an say i.e. god(s) exist
I don't. I think that you are inferring that's all I say, on the basis that's all I've said in the moment. I have said a lot of thing prior to this single conversation.

It gives meaning to our lives spiritually, and we cannot make conclusions
about existence of god(s) purely by trying to find out "where they live".
I have not seen any evidence that there is a spiritual meaning unless you're using spiritual and a purely metaphorical or poetic manner. I see no evidence that there is any such thing as spirit. But in either case, I don't see the relevance.

G-d only "gives His address" to those He trusts, it would seem.
I see no evidence that there is a God to give an address or to do anything at all anywhere or ever.


Makes sense to me.
I understand that you think merely saying that it makes sense to you means something.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
She looked at his life, his mission and whatever else, and decided, that's good enough, and committed herself to believing what Baha'u'llah says as being factual. But is everything he said and teaches factual?
No, that is not how it went down back in 1970 when I became a Baha'i. I did not think about what Baha'u'llah wrote since I did not even read much of what He wrote. I became a Baha'i as the result of reading many books about the Baha'i Faith and books written by Abdu'l-Baha. I just assumed a God existed, I did not really believe in God back then... I could not have cared less if Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God back then since it did not matter to me. I liked all of what the Baha'i Faith stood for and taught, less the God part.

I now know that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God because since 1970 I have done the necessary research into His Life and Mission, and I have read His Writings. I have also read the prophecies in the Bible and know how they were fulfilled, which would be enough evidence even if there was no other evidence.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because you are playing word games, tapdancing and doing everything you can by re-phrasing answers in order to achieve some goal which I do not know. Then, as usual, you try to put blame on me...."why do you.......why do you....", as if I don't recognize these argument styles.
I have no goals, I just respond to posts as I see fit. I also don't blame people for things, although I point things out when I see them.
Just as I will point out that you are repeating yourself again, talking about evidence. You are obsessed about evidence.

I did not initially become a Baha'i because of evidence, as I did not need evidence to see that the Baha'i Faith was the truth. I still don't need evidence even though I now know that there is plenty of evidence.

I also don't need evidence to know that God exists since it is obvious to me that God exists based on logical reasoning.
It is also obvious to me that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, based upon logical reasoning.
It is also obvious to me that the Baha'i Faith is true, based upon logical reasoning.

I don't need anything but a sound mind to know that God exists and sends Messengers, since it is so logical.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Which bothers me a lot, because Baha'is say all those religions and their Scriptures and their manifestation/messenger were all true, but not totally true.
Typical cultural appropriation. Neg on the older culture for not understanding, but at the same time lean on them for for the street cred that the older cultures have spent centuries accumulating. Christians' do it to Jews. Muslims and Mormons to Christians. Baha'i to everyone else -- same stuff, different day.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Wrong. One who has seen god can be atheist if they choose so.

They just have to understand that the mind is not 100% reliable at discerning reality.
OK, let me try to understand this. You are saying that even if a person has seen God, he does not have to believe that God exists. Could you please explain, thank you.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
OK, let me try to understand this. You are saying that even if a person has seen God, he does not have to believe that God exists. Could you please explain, thank you.
Seeing a god would not require that the view recognize that what he sees is a god. Or he could see a god, and be told that it is a god, but have no way to differentiate between a being that is a god and one that is not.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, it isn't. Demonstrate to me how you know God exists and know God-101 stuff.
I just explained that in the previous post.
Wrong. According to Bahai God wants us to know him and be closer to him.
My point stands. God does not need your belief. God has no needs. Humans are the ones who have needs.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260


The only reason God wants us to know Him and get closer to Him is for our own benefit. If we cut ourselves of from God, God's love cannot reach us.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

Evidence is needed.
Not for me. It took a while, but you and other atheists helped me realize that I never cared about evidence because I never needed it, so thanks.
That does not mean there is no evidence, that only means I do not need it in order to know that the Baha'i Faith is a true religion. Everything follows from that.
a person who is claiming revelations but is not actually having revelations will never be able to provide evidence.
A person who is claiming revelations who is actually having revelations will never be able to provide evidence.
Try to think about why it is impossible to provide evidence of a revelation from God.
Funny how just one post ago you claimed it cannot be known what God would do. And now, you know!
Some things can be known and some things cannot be known. Some things can be known based upon the attributes of God coupled with logical reasoning.
The reason I keep posting is because you make so many fallacious posts it's too easy.
Yet you cannot point out one fallacy and say how it was committed.
Ah, now we are back to you CANNOT make God do what you want. You CAN if it's something you don't agree with, like appear as human, have teeth, demonstrate evidence.
Nobody can make an All-Powerful God do what they want, for obvious logical reasons.
You forgot to even think about the fact that if a God were real, and he actually wanted to talk to someone on behalf of a religion, he would provide good evidence.
There is no reason to 'assume' that God would provide good evidence. That is the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.
There is every reason not to assume that God would provide good evidence since God wants to be believed on Faith.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Believing in God requires faith since no man has ever seen God. Then we go looking for the evidence. God will reward those who earnestly seek Him.
And, in most religions, people agree with this as God always shows up, does magic, fights monsters, raises many from the dead, repels evil beings who posess people and animals, gives people new shiny spirit bodies after death, sends angels to talk to people, floods the world, kicks down entire mountains, destroys armies. So when people write religious text, they always have God provide evidence. Because people know otherwise, it's likely a man attempting to fool everyone.
That was not God providing evidence since God did not write those texts. It was humans who were trying to convince people that God exists.
You are justifying and making excuses. You want people to believe the evidence is such because God wants that. But again, you have no evidence of that, just claims by a man.
If God exists, what we see is what we get and it is what God wants us to have. We cannot get anything from God other than what God wants to give us. That means we are not going to get any evidence other than what God provides. That is not claims of a man, it is what I have deduced based upon my own logical reasoning.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Caught, once again.

AND, it was entered as a type of evidence.
No, my list of criteria that I believe a Messenger of God would have to meet was NOT entered as a type of evidence.
I am the one who entered it so I alone know why I entered it and what I entered it for.

You still cannot admit you were wrong, after all this time. Is it too much for you to admit you were wrong?
Whenever you speak for another person and insist you know their motives you are wrong, because you can only know your own motives.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It is a fact that the evidence presented does not warrant belief in a God.
It is a fact that the evidence presented does not lead you to believe in a God.

It is not a fact that the evidence presented does not warrant belief in a God.

You do not know what warrants a belief in God for anyone except yourself.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Oh now I see. You did not mean "meet up" literally, as two people meet up for a date. ;)

Yes .. Like when we hear so often when folks speak for God -- as if they met up for tea :) -- at which point I am jealous of - myself only getting one simple question .. "Stay or God" .. not getting to ask anything myself.

And so .. when I run into these lucky folks .. I am happy and with hope ask them to ask God a few sparky questions for me next time they meet .. or even the spirity guide - for the "speaking in tongues crowd" - unfortunately I never receive an answer ... which is too bad.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
I think you failed to understand my previous response to you.

I said the human brain is not reliable. You can meet god however you understand that would look like, and still doubt your experience due to a faulty mind.

Not so friend, is you who is failing to understand the logical reality before you.

Claim A) I Met God Claim B) I am an atheist

My claim is that A contradicts B .. You cry out No No No --- what about if he only thought he met God .. came to believe later that he did not meet God ... then this person can be an Atheist.

So you see I understand your argument .. it is you who has yet to understand why this argument fails.

In the case you present Claim A is refuted --- because person C no longer believes they met God.

So you can't have a person who has met God .. be an Atheist. in the case you bring up .. the person has no longer met God .. so they are not a person who has met God.

This has to do with - and is dependent upon what person C believes - not what an outside observer believes .. the existential trick does not work. So it doesn't matter whether or not you believe the person met God.... being an atheist is contingent only on what Person C believes.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
Not so friend, is you who is failing to understand the logical reality before you.

Claim A) I Met God Claim B) I am an atheist

My claim is that A contradicts B .. You cry out No No No --- what about if he only thought he met God .. came to believe later that he did not meet God ... then this person can be an Atheist.

So you see I understand your argument .. it is you who has yet to understand why this argument fails.

In the case you present Claim A is refuted --- because person C no longer believes they met God.

So you can't have a person who has met God .. be an Atheist. in the case you bring up .. the person has no longer met God .. so they are not a person who has met God.

This has to do with - and is dependent upon what person C believes - not what an outside observer believes .. the existential trick does not work. So it doesn't matter whether or not you believe the person met God.... being an atheist is contingent only on what Person C believes.
We’ll agree to disagree because I find your logic illogical.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I have not seen any evidence that there is a spiritual meaning..
Well, Scripture is not designed to educate us in the same way as a scientific book of facts.
It seems that you have a problem with the word 'spiritual'.
I use it in the context of relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things. i.e. our spiritual welfare, as opposed to physical health

I see no evidence that there is a God to give an address or to do anything at all anywhere or ever..
Of course you don't .. you are an atheist, and think it is all conspiracy of some kind.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
We’ll agree to disagree because I find your logic illogical.

I assure you that A) I met God and B) I am an atheist ... contradict each other --

One can not believe to have met God- and believe there is no God .. at the same tie .. and be in mental congruence. .. not sure if you are a fan of the old star trek series but .. this is one of those episodes where the alien computer entity blows up "Does not compute - Does not compute" moments.

It is the claim that one can hold two diametrically oposing thoughts at the same time - and not be playing both sides of the fence .. that is illogical..

It is the claim that (A) and (not A) is not a contradiction.

Do you understand that to claim to have met God .. is to claim to believe that God exists .. or at least that a God existed at that moment.

Now later you can say .. I don't believe that anymore .. but that does not resolve the contradiction of the moment.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
I assure you that A) I met God and B) I am an atheist ... contradict each other --

One can not believe to have met God- and believe there is no God .. at the same tie .. and be in mental congruence. .. not sure if you are a fan of the old star trek series but .. this is one of those episodes where the alien computer entity blows up "Does not compute - Does not compute" moments.

It is the claim that one can hold two diametrically oposing thoughts at the same time - and not be playing both sides of the fence .. that is illogical..

It is the claim that (A) and (not A) is not a contradiction.

Do you understand that to claim to have met God .. is to claim to believe that God exists .. or at least that a God existed at that moment.

Now later you can say .. I don't believe that anymore .. but that does not resolve the contradiction of the moment.
Your point is pointless, especially in regard to the OP which is what I was responding to in the first place.

Well I guess it’s not entirely pointless. You are supporting my original assertion that one can change their mind on what they believe, which is what the thread is about.
 
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