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Can we change our mind about what we believe?

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..A responsive answer to the second would be something like, "The reason a god would reveal itself to some but not all is ..."
..and you presumably say that, because you envisage G-d as being "a god" .. as in person who does this or that.

That is not how I understand G-d. I understand G-d as being part of everything, including
our own souls .. but it is complex .. not easy to envisage or explain .. because G-d
cannot be compared to any known 'thing' or creature .. so more of a phenomena than person.

Similarly, using language such as 'G-d reveals Himself' is not straightforward.
eg. it can refer to psychological process involving subconscious

"Matters of the soul .. the psyche .. the part of mind which involves conscience." I don't see a definition of spirituality there..
It's not so much a definition as a hint!

Matters of psyche and consciousness are psychology..
Right! No 'magic' involved.

..and the soul is a poetic construct standing for the essential character of an individual..
..if you like..
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
If you know anything about psychology, you might realise why that is so.
A person who turns away from G-d, as in ignores what Scriptures teach,
will not "think" in the same way that a person who considers it to be true.

That isn't explaining something you understand that other minds cannot. I understand (and had) having a belief in Christianity, Alien crash at Roswell, law of attraction, and other wu-wu things that are extremely unlikely to be true.
You just buy into a story and accept it's true and once you emotionalize it and it becomes part of your identity you have a very hard time seeing facts. Deconversion is very hard because of how our minds are wired.

But a Mormon doesn't understand evidence that you cannot comprehend, they just believe Joseph Smith really had a revelation and that his story is all true. While you probably believe he is running a con.We all understand how people buy into stories and religions.

The claim of evidence that only some people can understand sounds like a different thing and I want to see if an example can be given. It cannot because there is no response.






We are not compelled to believe, but the path we take affects our very being/soul.
What soul, provide evidence for a soul. Christianity picked it up from Hellenism. Was a myth then and still is.



We CAN change our mind about what we believe, but the further we get from spiritual truth,
the harder it is to see this truth.
Obviously someone can hear that Joseph Smith had revelations from an angel and choose to buy into the story.

The further people get from dogmatic religions the more their mind allows to look at the claims with some rational , skeptical and logical thoughts which may lead them to realize they hold a belief that is not supported by evidence.

But first of all the word "spiritual" is ill-defined, "spiritual truth" is a meaningless word used by apologists to mean "my religion".
Theism is an absolute fail in terms of evidence, likelyness of the claims being true, and it's debunbked by so many lines of thinking.

Finally you cannot change your mind about what you believe if you care about believing true things. I can choose to accept the Roswell UFO crash folklore if I really want to believe there is alien life out there and they are visiting us, and the government is covering it all up. Exciting things to believe. But if you care about truth it all falls apart.
Religion is no different, it can be exciting to feel like you are special and created by a god and will live on after death. But if you really care about truth it doesn't hold up.

So you really cannot believe what you want.




..much like getting out of a pit .. the deeper we go in disbelief, the harder it becomes
to change.
..it is not impossible, but it usually takes some sort of 'shock'. or change in our lives..
That is exactly the point. People encounter a trauma or difficult time and turn to a religion. Generally they are not skeptical, rational, critical thinkers but willing to accept the story. Difficult times often reverse and being in an organized group with a place to go, talk with people, praying (even to an imaginary deity) is helpful, it's a bit like meditation, and these things can help improve peoples lives, sometimes.
Then, as humans do, we make connections when they are often not there and say "God changed my life".


How do we know it didn't happen.
1) you hear the success stories, many don't have significant change
2)go to a pediatric cancer ward, all of the relatives, parents, grandparents, uncles, cousins, siblings, all are praying. Some survive some don't.
It follows probabilistic mortality rates that don't change unless better treatments are discovered.

3) 10,000 children under 10 die every day from starvation. Do you imagine their extended family are not begging a deity for the children to survive.
Spo most stories of people having their life changed are the times it worked. Random probability would say sometimes joining a religion will help a situation.
4) but it can be Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Sikh, Hinduism, Scientology, New Age cults, Witchcraft, all groups have stories of people changing their lives.
It's clearly due to psychological reasons and has zero to do with an outside deity.

People being shocked into scientology doesn't mean the theology is real. It means being around people and having something to focus on can help difficult times.

Non-religious don't have "disbelief", they believe in all sorts of things. They just don't buy stories from ancient folk tales that became popular without sufficient evidence. That is a good thing.





G-d's guidance is for those that work righteousness .. our minds can be our own worst enemy.
It is not purely a matter of 'matter', as it were, but also a matter of conscience.
That doesn't make sense. So on the basic level you are just making stuff up about a deity who doesn't seem to exist.

But the answer you were responding to was why doesn't God speak to all humans at once? Your answer makes no sense.
Only people who work righteousness? What? The people gone astray would be in the most need. A reasonable and good God would give evidence to all humans and then let them decide how to proceed.
The idea that Judaism and Christianity is real is almost impossible looking at the historical information (and why Dr Miller, Ehrman, Dr Kipp Davis, Dr Bowden and s many other historians became secular), but saying it is for a second.......you claim it was corrupted and Jesus was really a prophet.
Yet there is not one shred of information about that, we have 36 other gospels, Gnostic text, all sorts of literature not in the Bible and NEVER is that idea floated. But ok, somehow it's all wrong, and Christianity has a huge following now in 7 AD, the Church in Rome is huge, has millions of followers, a Pope, Bishops, Priests, all dedicate their lives to study. But it's all wrong so what does YAhweh do? Tells the Pope and Bishops of course? Nope.
Tells all Christians through revelation? Nope. Tells any Christian? Nope. Tells an Arab merchant? Yes.
ensuring hatred, bloodshed, wars and tearing people apart still to this day. And god knows all. He knew it would create one of the largest loss of life ever, up to 2 million people killed in the Partition of India , millions displaced, so much suffering. Yahweh could have given revelations to Hindu leaders. But that NEVER happens. Anyone outside of India never gets Hindu revelations, anyone outside of Islam or Christianity never get revelations, only from the thing they already believe. So, people made this stuff up. Hinduism is a deep and vast theology, they are not goinbg to convert without true revelations or a visit from a deity.


But don't speak to me of righteousness, if this god was real I would NEVER worship it.
But the facts show its' fiction.




No. A book is not true because it claims that it is. We will only accept it as truth if we can 'see' that it is.
A matter of conscience.
Why are you responding to a post sent to someone else (ok, fine) but then MISINTERPRETING IT and taking it way out of context?

I'm responding to:
"It does not have to be demonstrated, it is clearly defined in scriptures."

That statement is "its' true because the books says so"

And you cannot "see" any religious book is true you were told it was true and you bought into the story.

It's an angry book and we have evidence it was being worked on for centuries. It's just another mythology.




Conscience comes first, and the evaluation of evidence follows it.
I don't know what "Conscience comes first,", I think confirmation bias comes first. Why else are there so many deconverted Muslims who are saying it's totally made up. Armin Navari is one and he debunks any claim about Islam on the Athiest Experience.


Evidence?
Apologetics that say "the science must come from god!" When every single thing was from Greek science books from BCE. That would be called a lie. Angels giving revelations? Moon splitting in half?



Matters of the soul .. the psyche .. the part of mind which involves conscience.
psyche and conscience are part of the brain and psychology deals with them. When the brain is damaged, both will change.
When the brain is gone so are they. Where were they before you were born? In surgery you close you eyes and then open them and hours have past.
The soul, provide evidence. Judaism didn't really use that concept. This is the god you believe in.
No soul, no heaven, for over 1000 years. Then, Greek Hellenism happens around 300 BC. The Greeks occupy Israel and what do you know? Christianity, started in the Hellenism hub, Antioch, suddenly has all these things, souls, souls returning to heaven and so on.

Wow Yahweh forgot to tell people for one thousand years about the afterlife? Then when the Greeks invent it, then it becomes part of a new Jewish offshoot?
No. These are man-made myths and theologies, syncretism happens in ALL religions and this is an example in Judaism.

You will pick on the scholars but you seem to be unaware it has nothing to do with scholars. Do you admonish WW2 historians for demonstrating evidence about something uncomfortable from WW2? No. It's the information itself. It's just not taught to the world because you have to actually study these fields of religious history or read books they write.
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
..and don't forget that adultery and other sexual immorality often leads to violence,
and even murder.
Not really. Violence and murder lead to violence and murder.
Violent religious text that constantly say "a painfull doom", and brands Christians and Jews as liers, and has deep hatred for non-believers will and HAS given rise to violence and murder.

If a god was real and he told his followers to understand non-believers and to accept them with love and friendship but lead them to the evidence that god should provide, would be a start. Even if it's a human writing pretending to be a god, this would help a lot.
I am appalled at the angry tone I read in the Quran. I'm sure I don't need examples. Christians are liers? Perverse? They are going to hell?
How about, they mean well but got some information wrong so let's work it out peacefully. and god can go tell them as well instead of angrily shouting names and anger towards Christians and Jews at an Arab.
They truly believe they have accurate scripture and what does their god do? Talk crap about them to another nation and say they are going to hell> WTF????? How about speaking to them and telling them, from Yahweh, they made a mistake.

NO WAY would this happen.
Imagine if it was real and your text was corrupted and he went and told another nation and they started the "true" religion and no god told you. Then you died and went to hell and god was like "oh well. yeah sorry"/ Awful. Don't tell me a religion who feels they have correct scripture is going to be compelled by another religion with also no evidence.
what a man-made mess.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If a god was real and he told his followers to understand non-believers and to accept them with love and friendship but lead them to the evidence that god should provide, would be a start.
God already provided the evidence. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Even if it's a human writing pretending to be a god, this would help a lot.
Why would that help? Who wants a pretend God?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
When the brain is damaged..
I wasn't discussing "damaged brains" :)

When the brain is gone..
..nor when the brain is gone.

Yahweh forgot to tell people for one thousand years about the afterlife?
Of course not .. you have been brainwashed by your "experts' :)

I will continue to believe that a righteous person will be rewarded for their sacrifice,
and an evil-liver will reap what they sow.
i.e. life does not end with death

You are free to believe what you like, of course.
..but I say that those who are poor through no fault of their own will be compensated for their suffering,
Amen.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
God already provided the evidence. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Right, Jesus who is God visited Paul. Then Jesus appeared in AU recently. God also sent an angel to tell Joseph Smith the true updates about Christianity. God has led you to water but he cannot force you to drink it.

Oh, not them? Why because they have no good evidence? I would agree. Now Bahai on the other hand is the absolute worst in terms of evidence. Nothing is the evidence. Terrible prophecies is the evidence. Low grade worship writing is the evidence. You have had your chance to provide evidence, you only provided confirmation bias, fallacies and now by ignoring all the arguments and just asserting that this total hoax is evidence you are at troll level. Congrats, you are making a mockery of the religion. Due to a lack of argument have to troll people. Fantastic.

I spend all that time attempting to find some shred of evidence, even re-reading

Challenge_of_Bahaullah (not my fault he is completely wrong) and given you endless chance to mount some argument. Nothing happened, you gave no reasonable defense for the belief but now mock me as if the entire thing never happened and I've been led to evidence but won't see it. Which is not true, based on the entire conversation. But you ignore that and make delusional remarks. That is known as trolling and would be what you have to now resort to. Pretty lame.
So the religion clearly doesn't teach any type of humility, self reflection, knowing when to bow out and continue further study to represent the religion with maybe facts or a stronger epistemology? Nope. Just pretend like you have evidence that is valid and act delusional and troll.

Which further confirms what I'm saying. It's fake.





Why would that help? Who wants a pretend God?
Clearly you do because Bahai presents every possible sign of a person writing stories and making up that they are revelations.
Even to the point of numerous incredibly wrong prophecies which your confirmation bias allows you to completely ignore. That is how it works I guess.
They seem to help you, so there you go?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I wasn't discussing "damaged brains" :)
You were discussing - "Matters of the soul .. the psyche .. the part of mind which involves conscience."

Again, the psyche and conscience is not part of a soul but part of a brain. One connection that can be shown is both will change when the brain is damaged. One injury resulted in multiple personalities, one being theist and one being atheist. So what , would they now have 2 souls?

If you read what neurologist have to say you will find many lines of evidence that point to a soul being an ancient myth with no proff that such a concept exists.
But you don't check in with experts in fields right? You just seem to find beliefs and ignore what specialists in the scientific fields that relate have to say. It's the best way to almost ensure you will be wrong when you don't test your beliefs. Well not you, you don't care about that.
For people on the fence with beliefs, always try hard to debunk them. If they hold up that is a good start.




..nor when the brain is gone.

But when the brain is gone there is no evidence of any consciousness. When they shut you off for surgery it's blank timelessness. Death is likely the same without any waking up.





Of course not .. you have been brainwashed by your "experts' :)
Uh, I'm going by scripture here? And yes in the OT heaven is for Yahweh only.
Heaven and hell were first introduced in the late parts of Daniel, during the Persian period, who already had those myths in their religion.

Resurrection of individual and judgment in is Daniel from about 164 BC.

Resurrection and hell existed in the Persian religion. We know Daniel was drawing on the Persian beliefs because Daniel echoes several Persian concepts along with this.

However souls that must return to heaven after being on this "fallen" earth and return immediately after death was not in Daniel. That was from Greek Hellenism and was added into Christian theology. I already gave sources of scholars who work on this.

So again, yes, 1000 years went by and there was no mention to hundreds of generations of Jewish people about these afterlife concepts.

I thought you said you "go by the Bible". So you would know this then?


I will continue to believe that a righteous person will be rewarded for their sacrifice,
and an evil-liver will reap what they sow.
I honestly don't care if you believe Thanos comes down and punishes their soul. I care about what is true, what can be demonstrated to be true and reasonable philosophy. Folk tales are not interesting.


i.e. life does not end with death
No, other people still live. The people who die, stop being conscious. If you have evidence for a soul please present it. Myths taken from the Hellenistic Greeks are not interesting to me, regardless of which later religion used them.



You are free to believe what you like, of course.
I am not free to believe what I like. I believe what things are true, have evidence and are justified in believing.
I cannot just believe magical beings and ghosts inside our bodies are real.



..but I say that those who are poor through no fault of their own will be compensated for their suffering,
Amen.
Yes, the entire point of religion. It's why people enjoyed believing in Zeus, Inanna, Krishna, and whomever else. They get to feel like we are special there is a universal justice system and makes death less uncomfortable.

It wasn't true when the Roman army prayed to Mithras and it isn't true in any other case.

Just because you preach your beliefs doesn't make them any more true.
I understand why people would want to come and discuss their beliefs, but to just preach, offer no evidence or answer to anything seems pointless?

Amen
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
..and I am appalled at what many people in the world do for
power and wealth. :(
Yes, that is bad also. How is that a response? a scripture that can insight violence is its own problem. I also hate child cancer but that doesn't change the fact that this is angry scripture. Bigoted and anti-semite? You actually think a God would speak like this?

And thou wilt find them (the Jews) greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do.



Also why do you follow the Bible if your god says they follow false words?

And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.

Are you also appalled at this hate speech?


Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression? - and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you - Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
(Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next.)

Once again, as I said, these Christians devote their lives to religious study, building churches, spreading the word, following the commandments, striving to act as Jesus, and according to you, their scripture is wrong. So does Yahweh help them? Reward their loyalty and tell them the corrections?
WHY, NO! Why would he do that? Instead he appears far far angrier and tells a different nation about how they will all be burning in hell in a painful doom. Weird he never used that phrase before?
Never mind the evil people getting punishment and people who suffer......."but I say that those who are poor through no fault of their own will be compensated for their suffering,"

so all these Christians and Jews who now have the wrong scripture, is God going to compensate them like you say? Oh no. He's sending them to hell.
They devote their life and community to the best of their ability to serve this God, and he calls them names and tells a different people. Even brags about how they are going to hell. And they have no way to know because they would consider Islam heretics and God would 100% know this. So he does not care.

So, no, no compensation. This is awful and were it real I would never worship such a being.
But it's not real. This is not a god, this is angry people who clearly hate the Christians and Jews and it's reflected in their mythology.

Just like the early Israelites hated the Hittites and the other 5 cities and had their god say to kill every living thing if at war with them.
God said to kill babies and pregnant woman. This stuff is immoral nonsense.
 
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muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..But when the brain is gone there is no evidence of any consciousness..
That is just stating the obvious.
We cannot make observations about the consciousness of a dead person.
We can only make assumptions.

I am not free to believe what I like. I believe what things are true, have evidence and are justified in believing.
I cannot just believe magical beings and ghosts inside our bodies are real..
You cannot know whether there is a life after death through 'physical experiment'.
What you are in effect saying, is that you would rather assume that there is nothing
other than this worldly life, and you have no interest in its possibility.

Yes, the entire point of religion. It's why people enjoyed believing in Zeus, Inanna, Krishna, and whomever else. They get to feel like we are special there is a universal justice system and makes death less uncomfortable.
Does it?
I don't know about you, but I have done lots of questionable things in my life.
I have no guarantee of what will happen to me after death.
..but I have hope!
Hope that I will be forgiven (by G-d .. by others)
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture.
...
Once again, as I said, these Christians devote their lives to religious study, building churches, spreading the word, following the commandments, striving to act as Jesus, and according to you, their scripture is wrong. So does Yahweh help them? Reward their loyalty and tell them the corrections?
You just cherry-pick the verses that suit your agenda.
Other verses tell us that 'the people of the book' have nothing to worry about,
if they are indeed sincere.
WHY, NO! Why would he do that? Instead he appears far far angrier and tells a different nation about how they will all be burning in hell in a painful doom.
You need to understand the context of verses. Many were revealed in time of war.
The Qur'an needs to be understood as a whole .. not as isolated cherry-picked verses
out of context.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
That is just stating the obvious.
We cannot make observations about the consciousness of a dead person.
We can only make assumptions.
Well then you have no evidence for a soul whatsoever?

The physical brain accounts for all of consciousness. There is zero soul in neuroscience. So why would it even be postulated? It's just another ancient belief rooted in fiction.

Also when you have surgery you go out and come too in the same moment. The in between is gone. Probably like death.





You cannot know whether there is a life after death through 'physical experiment'.
Yes we can get clues. For example we can create states that are similar to NDE, seeing a white tunnel, feeling a presence, feeling of floating, in a lab setting by depleting oxygen and similar.



What you are in effect saying, is that you would rather assume that there is nothing
No, never said that, I would rather assume the things that are likely true. Ancient stories about a 2nd ghost body in people originating in Hellenism are not rooted in fact.



other than this worldly life, and you have no interest in its possibility.
? This is one of the things that pushed me to investigate, because I wanted to know if there might be life after death. I simply don't hide from places evidence takes me. I don't ignore and bend truth for apologetics.






Yes, if a God made us we have a special place in the universe. Otherwise at death it is the end. People cannot deal with this fact and need to feel they continue on forever. But then end up wasting their time believing false things.

I don't know about you, but I have done lots of questionable things in my life.
I have no guarantee of what will happen to me after death.
..but I have hope!
Hope that I will be forgiven (by G-d .. by others)
First there is no evidence people have any soul that survives death. For at least 1000 years the Israelites believed death was sleeping in the dirt. This is from Yahweh.
During the Persian occupation a myth came into contact with the Israelites about god vs devil and an end war where all followers would bodily resurrect.
This was apocalypticism.

Apocalypticism, eschatological (end-time) views and movements that focus on cryptic revelations about a sudden, dramatic, and cataclysmic intervention of God in history; the judgment of all men; the salvation of the faithful elect; and the eventual rule of the elect with God in a renewed heaven and earth. Arising in Zoroastrianism, an Iranian religion founded by the prophet Zoroaster, apocalypticism was developed more fully in Judaic, Christian, and Islāmic eschatological speculation and movements.

Note, arising in Zoroastrianism. The Persian religion, who occupied Israel and them their myths began showing up centuries later in the OT and in the NT. Which also added Hellenism who had souls that return to heaven at death. Not the OT, Greek religions and adopted by the NT.

So a myth is a myth.

Next, the myth about an archaic God who sends people to hell is ridiculous. And damaging.
You should listen to former Muslim Armin Navabi about his suicide attempt at 15 to avoid hell. It's not based in any facts and very harmful to people.


At this point why are you bringing things you cannot back with evidence? Are you completely unable to form a reasonable discussion without meandering off and speaking to the wall? It would be like if I randomly just kept voicing worries about my invisible pet dragon in my closet after offering no evidence it's true. Why would I continue to put such questions to you? Should I feed him? What if he bites me? Should I walk him?
Or are you saying that stuff for other readers?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You just cherry-pick the verses that suit your agenda.

Uh, right now that verse is my agenda? Why would it be said, to different people, by the god who they worship so hard?
Other verses tell us that 'the people of the book' have nothing to worry about,
if they are indeed sincere.
So than the Quran has contradictions? They have nothing to worry about but they lie? How about Yahweh tells the people on earth who feverishly worship him???
Makes zero sense. What does make sense, is some Arabs made up a new religion and composed the work over time as the palimpset demonstrates.
Just like the Israelites made up their god originally based on earlier models of gods. And yes, YAhweh originally had a body, super powers and earthly passions. Words directly from Hebrew Bible scholar F. Stravrakopoulou




You need to understand the context of verses. Many were revealed in time of war.
The Qur'an needs to be understood as a whole .. not as isolated cherry-picked verses
out of context.
Those verses are not about war, they say the Christians and Jews have incorrect scripture.

I am already familiar with those Muslim apologetics.

It's clearly written by people. Angels do not actually exist.
The reform movement is a smaller part of Islam and is basically ignoring what the text says. I listen to reform advocates like Imam Tawhidi debate Daniel... a Muslim fundamentalist.
If Arman can easily see that the evidence is zero so can anyone else.
 
Can we change our mind about what we believe?

From my own experience, I can say: Yes, we can. As a child, I believed in Father Christmas, in the Christian God, then for a while in nothing at all, then ironically in Lucifer, now unironically in the Nordic pantheon (and its equivalents - I also believe in the existence of Vishnu and Krishna, in the Celtic gods as well as the Greek and karma - but I don't worship them with such intensity, I'm "only" accompanied by mine). I didn't even have to change for that.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
This is one of the things that pushed me to investigate, because I wanted to know if there might be life after death..
No amount of 'physical investigation' can categorically prove it one way or another.
One can only make assumptions.

First there is no evidence people have any soul that survives death. For at least 1000 years the Israelites believed death was sleeping in the dirt..
I don't believe that .. you are making assumptions again, and following false leads..
We know that some sects in Judaism believed that, but we cannot know for sure
what all believed over 1000 years.

..the myth about an archaic God who sends people to hell is ridiculous. And damaging..
We reap what we sow .. it is not so much that we are sent to hell, but a consequence
of our deeds.

You should listen to former Muslim Armin Navabi about his suicide attempt at 15 to avoid hell..
Catholics and Muslims believe that suicide does not prevent suffering, but might
cause it..
..what about the effect it has on others, for example.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Those verses are not about war, they say the Christians and Jews have incorrect scripture.
No .. not exactly.
It says more about creed than Scripture.
..but there are some inconsistencies, yes.

It is a fact that many verses were revealed in times of war.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
No amount of 'physical investigation' can categorically prove it one way or another.
One can only make assumptions.
Assumptions like
"Zeus is the highest God"
"Lord Krishna is real and my personal deity"
"The sun revolves around the earth"
"The star positions can predict your life"
"There is a center of reality, or axis Mundi on earth"
"The earth is clearly flat"
"Ghosts are responsible for all unknown noises"
"other races are inferior"
"men are superior to women"
"there is no such thing as tiny life forms that cause disease"

You need evidence or you are most likely wrong.
Strange that in all religions the people in the stories were presented physical evidence?





I don't believe that .. you are making assumptions again, and following false leads..
We know that some sects in Judaism believed that, but we cannot know for sure
what all believed over 1000 years.
You are actually making an effort to be wrong, it's bizarre?
We have the Bible and other written down Jewish literature. We have Josephus a Jewish historian. Their beliefs were unified all around.
Here you are saying :
1)The Bible is a false lead
2) They had different beliefs but no written record exists
3) Josephus or any other Jewish writer also never wrote about these divergent beliefs
4) We can follow the development in the Bible from old beliefs, Persian influence and Hellenism. Persian and Greek beliefs make sense because those were the 2 nations that occupies Israel.
5) I don't care what you believe, you have no evidence and don't care at all what is true.
6) What sect in Judaism believed that? If you don't respond I will continue to ask this question only.


We reap what we sow .. it is not so much that we are sent to hell, but a consequence
of our deeds.
I know the myth. It's damaging and complete fiction. There also was no hell in Judaism. Not until the Persian period and Daniel where we see several Persian myths mentioned, demonstrating syncretic borrowings from Persian religious myths.









Catholics and Muslims believe that suicide does not prevent suffering, but might
cause it..
..what about the effect it has on others, for example.
You should listen to former Muslim Armin Navabi about his suicide attempt at 15 to avoid hell..

His sect taught that, ......you will have to listen to his story.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
No .. not exactly.
It says more about creed than Scripture.
..but there are some inconsistencies, yes.

It is a fact that many verses were revealed in times of war.
They say the Christians and Jews are reading incorrect scripture, it has nothing to do with war.

And Moses came unto you with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), yet, while he was away, ye chose the calf (for worship) and ye were wrong-doers.

So again, the God that they worship, devote their lives to, ,build churches for, do the best they can, you claim their scripture was corrupted. Not their fault, you claim their God had to tell Arab people and fix the mistakes. But this God didn't bother to send an angel to tell the people who just wanted to do right by him. Then, left it as is, knowing they would never ever listen to another nation tell them corrections? Absurd? So this would be a forever war, and it is still 100% that they consider Islam to be completely made up.
This God, if real would be the most sadistic and uncaring being ever.
Again, if your scripture was corrupt and god sent word to another country, would you not be completely betrayed?

But that really makes no sense. An easy explanation is it's all man-made, no god anywhere.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..you claim their scripture was corrupted..
I claim their creed is not based on what Jesus taught.
Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus say that he was G-d .. that his resurrection
was more important than the first commandment .. etc.

Not their fault, you claim their God had to tell Arab people and fix the mistakes..
..and there are billions of people who believe in G-d, and we can make our
own minds up about which creed we follow .. but tribalism often figures in
what creed we proclaim, as there are often sacrifices to make in following truth
i.e. changing allegiances
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I claim their creed is not based on what Jesus taught.
Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus say that he was G-d .. that his resurrection
was more important than the first commandment .. etc.
It's well implied
1 Timothy 3:16
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:

He[a] was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated[b] by the Spirit,[c]
seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.


Colossians 2:9

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

which is Paul and he claimed revelations, same as Muhammad, so you can deny anothers claims of revelations and than say your revelations in your book are exact. But Christians will say yours are fake or from a devil. And none of you have any evidence so I do not care about fictive scriptures from centuries ago.

I am interested in things that are true.







..and there are billions of people who believe in G-d, and we can make our
own minds up about which creed we follow .. but tribalism often figures in
what creed we proclaim, as there are often sacrifices to make in following truth
i.e. changing allegiances
No, total B.S. It isn't you who are being asked by a deity to trust another nation who claims their God came to them with the correct updates. YET, cannot provide evidence, doesn't sound like their God, doesn't know anything a human couldn't know, and isn't something dedicated people do with beliefs. They hold onto them even if facts were presented.

I present facts from top scholars to you and you find any old excuse to ignore them. YET, at the same time you want others to accept a new religion just on faith, not even with evidence? That is so hypocritical and delusional it shows the hold these beliefs have on people.
They ignore facts, expect people to do what they would never do.

Guess what? Bahai is claiming he has the most recent updates. Yup. HE says Muhammad was a prophet, and Jesus but now God has given a NEW update. The lot of you have the same amount of evidence. Nothing.
Are you going to make the sacrifice? No. Not a chance. So don't go expecting Christians to do what you won't.

You all believe you are in the only true word of god religion. Evidence and logic is not something you care about.
Please spare me these ridiculous posts full of apologetics you heard and never even thought on.

Joseph Smith also came after your prophet. Why are you not making sacrifices to follow truth?
Because you are not following truth at all. You are following what you want to be truth. Angels are not real.

You also described yourself with no sense of irony, completely thinking it doesn't apply to you.
"tribalism often figures in what creed we proclaim,"

Exactly, you grew up around Islam.

Nothing here would excuse the horrid behavior of a God abandoning his people to talk to a different group and leave them hanging.
Notice how angry Yahweh is, super mad. Yet he cannot explain to his people what's wrong? Awful. Luckily, it's all historical fiction.







We know that some sects in Judaism believed that,


What sects in Judaism believed you go to heaven upon death before the influence of Greek Hellenism? What historian has this evidence?
 
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