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Can we compromise on abortion?

Alien826

No religious beliefs
And on this issue, I don't see it as the best option.

Do you see it as the best option for this issue?
It's the only option if we want peace on this issue. I don't know if this describes you, but it's important not to see compromise as drawing a line in the middle of the two positions. The line can be drawn anywhere and what makes it a compromise is that both sides agree to abide by it. Just about everything that we legislate is some form of compromise, because it's not practical to have a law that is different for everyone.

Of course, where there is no general agreement both sides have to give something and get something, otherwise they won't agree. Just going by the responders on this thread the answer is "no compromise!". (For some reason I hear that in a Northern Irish accent. It's from Ian Paisley shouting "No surrender!").

And in this case it is neither good, nor practical to compromise on a basic human right.

Even rights are compromised. We have the right to life (I hope we can agree on that as an example). We don't apply it in the case of self defense against a lethal threat.

Why is this case different?
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
The science definition of life encompasses the human unborn, since the unborn shows all the criteria of life. A single cell bacteria is considered alive. Each cell in the embryo is alive in that sense, while combined it also is alive. The political strategy is to ignore science, and then say the unborn is not a person until it is born, is pseudo-science. The Atheists, who claim to be on the side of science, need to step up.
Are you suggesting that bacteria should be protected under the law? If not then the question becomes "what kind of life?'

In terms of the argument of personhood, if you compare the unborn during pregnancy, to a new born baby, the new born baby is much more dependent on the efforts of the mother, than it is the unborn The unborn is much more autonomous. It takes what it needs from the mother, with no conscious effort by the mother. Mothers can ignore the unborn for months and may not even know she is pregnant, since unborn is quietly self sufficient within the matrix of her body. Some women will even continue to burn the candle from both ends, while pregnant. The unborn adapts, often with little long term harm. The born baby, on the other hand, is very vulnerable. It is cut off from its unborn instincts, and now has many new dependencies. Lefties always think upside down and fool themselves.

The big difference is that the mother has no alternative during pregnancy. Afterwards she can get help from others or even have the child adopted.

And I'm waiting for the comments from women to the idea that pregnancy is "no big deal"! I assume you are male, and if not that you have never been through pregnancy.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I still have hope that there are a lot of moderate people out there that are open to compromise.
What's the compromise position between the choice to terminate the pregnancy or not pre-fetal sentience belonging to the mother and it belonging to the church using the power of the state?
I know there are those who don't think a fetus is human until it's viable outside the womb and others not until it's born.
Nothing that one calls a fetus changes the moral calculus of abortion for me. Call it human, and I say I agree and that humans can be aborted before they are sentient and can suffer pain or terror. I find nothing inherently immoral about ending life under an assortment of circumstances, such the use of an antibiotic to kill living bacteria, because no bacteria suffers. I have no problem ending a tree's life or cracking open a fertilized chicken or duck egg. A fetus is no different, whatever you call it. Call it a baby, or a child, or a citizen, or whatever you like, none of that converts the moral status of the act. To immoral. These are all appeals to emotion.

The science definition of life encompasses the human unborn, since the unborn shows all the criteria of life.
Irrelevant.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Even rights are compromised. We have the right to life (I hope we can agree on that as an example).
Nope. At least you don't have an inalienable right to life in the US. It's in the preamble of the Declaration of Independence but not in the Constitution, any Amendment or any law.
The inalienable right to life has an automatic consequence. No judge or jury can take an inalienable right away from you, i.e. if you had it, capital punishment would be unconstitutional.
Wouldn't that be an idea for a compromise: the people who like to have more rights for persons and the people who like to have more rights for embryos stop bickering and first work to get the right to life into the constitution. Only when it's there a "pro lifer" can refer to it.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So your compromise is abortion after 22 weeks is only allowed for the rich.
No, you did not listen. It is allowed for those that have a medical need for it. Either to protect the mother or to prevent a short painful life for the fetus. Medically needed abortions would still be insured. Only abortions on demand at that time would not be covered. And the number of those is already almost zero. Once again, less than 1% of all abortions are after 22 weeks and most of those are done out of necessity. There would be no measurable change in the number of those later abortions. These sorts of abortions are a nonproblem. Women are far more responsible than you seem to be giving the credit for.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The science definition of life encompasses the human unborn, since the unborn shows all the criteria of life. A single cell bacteria is considered alive. Each cell in the embryo is alive in that sense, while combined it also is alive. The political strategy is to ignore science, and then say the unborn is not a person until it is born, is pseudo-science. The Atheists, who claim to be on the side of science, need to step up.

In terms of the argument of personhood, if you compare the unborn during pregnancy, to a new born baby, the new born baby is much more dependent on the efforts of the mother, than it is the unborn The unborn is much more autonomous. It takes what it needs from the mother, with no conscious effort by the mother. Mothers can ignore the unborn for months and may not even know she is pregnant, since unborn is quietly self sufficient within the matrix of her body. Some women will even continue to burn the candle from both ends, while pregnant. The unborn adapts, often with little long term harm. The born baby, on the other hand, is very vulnerable. It is cut off from its unborn instincts, and now has many new dependencies. Lefties always think upside down and fool themselves.
OK, I'll step up. My stance on abortion is based on personhood. Personhood is not so much science-based, as based on self-awareness and self-interest. I object to causing unnecessary harm or distress to persons.
In atual practice, people are all over the board on this. Actual public attitudes and actions often differ from the principles they cite.
As you pointed out, it's not life itself that's considered sacred, despite the slogans. If we eschewed taking all life we'd starve -- effectively taking our own lives.
Likewise, it's not human-based. Surgeons remove human parts every day, with noöne raising an objection. The parts are not persons.
Nor is it species-based. We think nothing of killing chickens and cows, but most people would consider little green men in flying saucers full persons, and afford them moral consideration, despite their species being totally unrelated to anything on Earth.

In practice, people usually think in terms of intelligence, specifically, human-like intelligence; or of familiarity. We have laws pertaining to cruelty toward cats and dogs, though these are rarely applied to the aforementioned food animals. Nor do pets enjoy the same legal protections or moral consideration we afford our fellow humans, however much we love them.
And people sometimes call for special consideration for elephants or chimps -- because they're intelligent.

All in all, we form hierarchies of moral consideration. Animals we like get special consideration, horses and dogs, for example. It's OK to kill or mistreat animals we eat or, till recently, who picked cotton for us. Our needs and interests come first, and might makes right.
These are the public attitudes and actions I mentioned. I find them morally inconsistent.

Personhood is based on self-awareness as an independent organism, and self-interest, in desiring to continue to exist, which is, itself, based on a prerequisite anticipation of futurity.
Persons also show likes and dislikes, joy and sadness, pleasure and pain, and are capable of suffering. These, in my book, affords them moral consideration.

A fœtus shows no indication of self-awareness. It has no anticipation of futurity, so no concomitant self-interest. It's not even aware it exists.
It is not thought capable of likes or dislikes, joy or sadness, pleasure, pain, or suffering.

So whence the claim to moral consideration or right-to-life? It has none of the factors prerequisite to these. Yes, it's human, but species is not what I base moral consideration on; nor does the general public, with any consistency.

This is what we base our claim of personhood on, not science.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Political Left has perfected a way to buy votes, using other people's money, including that of their political opponent. How many who want abortion will vote Left? And how many of these think everyone needs to pay? This robbery theme is common to all the Left's social engineering scams. It is also what is driving the national debt house of cards toward collapse. The Constitution only says to provide for the common defense; provide equals money. Promote the general welfare, can be done via volunteers and spokesmen. Promote is not the same as provide. Only one involves common tax money.
How does the political Left buy votes?
It's not the Left that seeks to interfere with the vote. It's the Right that consistently seeks to exclude voters, frighten voters, make voting difficult or impossible, scrub the registration lists, gerrymander voting districts, &c, -- aimed specifically to voters whom they deem likely to vote Democrat.
And what is this group you're calling "Left," anyway? There's no Left left. The Democrats have abandoned their original worker base, and have moved far to the Right, while the Republicans have abandoned both Democracy and the social contract and become Authoritarian, if not Neo-Fascist.

Considering their social and environmental policies, the past darlings of the Right, like Nixon and Reagan, are further left than the "radical left-wing" today's Republicans are railing against.
One starter solution is to separate tax revenue, by political party, with each party only able to use their tax revenues, from their voter base, for their own needs. Abortion, which is most favored by the Left, would be your own private concern paid for by the Left. But the Left would lose extra stolen money used to promote their candidates. The Left leadership does not wish to stop stealing, so those who seek abortion for are left in the middle, between conflicting needs and rights.
Why not just publicly fund elections, and forbid the corporate donations that have effectively captured today's politicians -- whose jobs now depend on the millions spent by often unidentified special interests?

I'd also point out that it's the Republican states that receive the bulk of public assistance, not the Democratic states.
The idea of allowing the States to decide, ends up placing more responsibility on Left leaning states, to pay for their own freebies for votes. This is moving the bar in the proper direction. This makes abortion available where wanted, and isolates were not want. It also places all the expenses on the shoulders of those who use it to get votes and those who want it. However, the Left States will see more debt and will have to adjust, until abortion is legal in places but minimized; not over promoted with free money.
This sounds like a Tyranny of the Majority. Have you considered the long-term implications of restricted abortions? Women who otherwise would have bright futures and contribute to society would end up on public welfare and working part-time, minimum wage jobs. They couldn't afford to live in neighborhoods with good schools and low crime, so I'd anticipate their children would follow them, hustling for a living, on the public dole, and, disproportionately, in expensive, publically-funded prisons.
Restricted abortions are both economically and socially expensive, in the long run.
 
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Alien826

No religious beliefs
What's the compromise position between the choice to terminate the pregnancy or not pre-fetal sentience belonging to the mother and it belonging to the church using the power of the state?
It's whatever the two sides agree to compromise on. You're asking me to define a compromise solution that makes sense to you (or me!). What I'm talking about is some kind of agreed position that will end the fighting. I guess I could say, do you prefer an abortion ban at 15 weeks to an absolute ban. Or to the pro-life person, do you prefer a ban at 15 weeks to allowing abortions right up to birth.

Obviously I'd prefer the pro-choice side to win with a reasonable (to me) date set for abortions like 22 weeks and only medical risk to the mother after that, and the pro-life side accept it, or at least shut up about it. The question was, is compromise possible, not what should it be.
 
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Alien826

No religious beliefs
Nope. At least you don't have an inalienable right to life in the US. It's in the preamble of the Declaration of Independence but not in the Constitution, any Amendment or any law.
The inalienable right to life has an automatic consequence. No judge or jury can take an inalienable right away from you, i.e. if you had it, capital punishment would be unconstitutional.
Correct, but there are some who argue for "natural rights" that exist independent of legislation. That's an interesting discussion, I may start another thread on it. I'll just say it's not my position.
Wouldn't that be an idea for a compromise: the people who like to have more rights for persons and the people who like to have more rights for embryos stop bickering and first work to get the right to life into the constitution. Only when it's there a "pro lifer" can refer to it.

If they could be persuaded to leave abortion alone until they succeeded, I'd agree. It's incredibly difficult to get a Federal Constitutional amendment enacted. I'm not sure how it would be worded, as there are obvious exceptions.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It appears, by the answer, both sides are stuck in their positions.
Yes. Kind of reminds me of the old Sun centered solar system vs Earth centered universe within 'heavenly spheres' arrangement.
Should we have compromised on that one?
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Yes. Kind of reminds me of the old Sun centered solar system vs Earth centered universe within 'heavenly spheres' arrangement.
Should we have compromised on that one?
That's different. Heliocentricity is a fact, established and proven by observation. Whether we allow abortion or not is not determined by scientific research, regardless of how many people would like it to be.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's different. Heliocentricity is a fact, established and proven by observation. Whether we allow abortion or not is not determined by scientific research, regardless of how many people would like it to be.
But the abortion supporters and detractors use facts, or what they claim to be facts, to support their positions.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
It's whatever the two sides agree to compromise on. You're asking me to define a compromise solution that makes sense to you (or me!). What I'm talking about is some kind of agreed position that will end the fighting. I guess I could say, do you prefer an abortion ban at 15 weeks to an absolute ban. Or to the pro-life person, do you prefer a ban at 15 weeks to allowing abortions right up to birth.

Obviously I'd prefer the pro-choice side to win with a reasonable (to me) date set for abortions like 22 weeks and only medical risk to the mother after that, and the pro-life side accept it, or at least shut up about it. The question was, is compromise possible, not what should it be.
Oh, you mean like what we had under Roe v Wade that was first crafted by SCOTUS and then repealed by SCOTUS?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No, you did not listen. It is allowed for those that have a medical need for it. Either to protect the mother or to prevent a short painful life for the fetus. Medically needed abortions would still be insured. Only abortions on demand at that time would not be covered. And the number of those is already almost zero. Once again, less than 1% of all abortions are after 22 weeks and most of those are done out of necessity. There would be no measurable change in the number of those later abortions. These sorts of abortions are a nonproblem. Women are far more responsible than you seem to be giving the credit for.

So limiting those late-term abortions would have no effect that could serve as justification for the limitation, then.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
But the abortion supporters and detractors use facts, or what they claim to be facts, to support their positions.
"You can't derive an ought from an is." - David Hume

A human is an animal. A humans is an omnivore. A human ought to eat humans.
Two statements of fact and the "logical" conclusion. Where's the fault in the logic?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So limiting those late-term abortions would have no effect that could serve as justification for the limitation, then.
Exactly. Antiabortrionists often pretend that almost all abortions are very late term ones when in reality the 1% that do occur are almost always due to medical emergencies. Very few doctors will even do the medically necessary ones. Trying to find one will to do an "abortion on demand" one may be nigh impossible. So my compromise is not really a compromise at all. it merely forces antiabortionists to be honest.

As to how abortions are done today we have crossed over the 50% mark where most abortions are now chemical ones. And justifying a ban on medical abortions is very unpopular. That is why that one Texas judge tried to make decide that the drug was not approved any longer. I am hoping for a huge "prolife" push by the Republicans in the next election.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"You can't derive an ought from an is." - David Hume

A human is an animal. A humans is an omnivore. A human ought to eat humans.
Two statements of fact and the "logical" conclusion. Where's the fault in the logic?
Non sequitur
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Exactly.

A (human) blastocyst is human. A blastocyst is alive. Blastocysts ought not to be aborted.
Two statements of fact and the "logical" conclusion. Where's the fault in the logic?
Same.

A bovine/avian/piscine blastocyst is alive, too. Aliveness doesn't confer a right-to-life.
 
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