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Can we compromise on abortion?

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
This has gone in for a while so I'll come in.

Predictably, many have used it to debate the rights and wrongs of abortion. Many see my point.

Essentially it was a question. Is compromise possible? On balance, I think the answer is "no". Whether compromise is even desirable was not part of my intention, and I think remains an open question.
I think you will find that the notion of compromise is made impossible by virtue of the definitions and language that people are using.

But first, full disclosure -- I don't like the notion of abortion, and especially later in the pregnancy. But I do not permit my likes and dislikes to make decisions for anyone else. I would dearly love more education of young people about sexual matters, but even with that, I know that the temptations are just too strong, and designed by nature to encourage rather than discourage sexual activity .-- and that therefore unwanted pregnancies are still going to occur.

Now, as to the language and definitions use that make compromise impossible. First, is "baby." That's what pro-lifers mean from the moment of fertilization on, and when you make that your definition, then abortion is always about killing babies -- which is of course wrong. For others, until a foetus is viable outside of the womb, it cannot be considered a "baby." It is a foetus.

My own position is this: so long as viability is not possible, then there is only one true "person" absolutely involved, and that is the woman. (She may be married, but that doesn't make her a slave.) After viability -- unless there is a danger to either mother or baby by allowing the pregnancy to come to term -- I really think the law may have something to say.

In the case of rape, or young children, there's no question of forcing the woman or child to carry and bear and suffer from the result of a crime.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Sure, but can skeletal remains distingish a cis female from a trans female? Certainly if you can get DNA there is no problem, but without DNA I don't think it is that simple. It might depend on the individual and when they started transitioning and how their body reacted.

Yes. E.g. pelvis, pubic arch, sacrum, coccyx ("tailbone") differ between males and females, as do teeth and cranial morphology.

There can be more ambiguity if the remains belong to a pre-pubescent child but there are measures to ascertain their biological sex.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Yes. E.g. pelvis, pubic arch, sacrum, coccyx ("tailbone") differ between males and females, as do teeth and cranial morphology.

There can be more ambiguity if the remains belong to a pre-pubescent child but there are measures to ascertain their biological sex.
I think you missed my point. All these skeletal features you are describing are affected by hormones. The kind of things trans-gender people take can change the skeleton, all of the skeletal elements you mention.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I think you missed my point. All these skeletal features you are describing are affected by hormones. The kind of things trans-gender people take can change the skeleton, all of the skeletal elements you mention.
According to the report, Haddow and his colleagues began to suspect these individuals that they were possibly eunuchs because castration before the onset of puberty typically results in people who are tall and slender with broad hips, narrow shoulders, and a sunken chest.​
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
I think you missed my point. All these skeletal features you are describing are affected by hormones. The kind of things trans-gender people take can change the skeleton, all of the skeletal elements you mention.
The hormones are not going to change someone who's already gone through male puberty into a female, they're not going to suddenly develop a female reproductive system no matter how much HRT they take, their male genitalia won't morph into female, thus the existence of sex reassignment surgeries. HRT won't change those sex characteristics that come out of puberty. Their body hair may become less coarse but it won't stop growing, e.g. they will still have chest hair. Their skeletal structure will remain the same, e.g., the bones I mentioned previously won't suddenly change length or shape or angle. There is no erasure of the fact the person is a biological male. A transwomen will still have greater lung capacity and a larger heart and major blood vessels than a woman. That coupled with other differences like height, reach, and bone density and so on are factors that contribute to the issue of transwomen entering women's sports.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Yes. E.g. pelvis, pubic arch, sacrum, coccyx ("tailbone") differ between males and females, as do teeth and cranial morphology.

There can be more ambiguity if the remains belong to a pre-pubescent child but there are measures to ascertain their biological sex.
You make it look like these attributes are definitive. They are not. There is overlap in all of them. Even DNA can be inconclusive for intersex persons (though that is rare, usually DNA is definitive).
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
You make it look like these attributes are definitive. They are not. There is overlap in all of them. Even DNA can be inconclusive for intersex persons (though that is rare, usually DNA is definitive).
There are always outliers but results hold true more often than not, thus investigators are able to make determinations.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
There are always outliers but results hold true more often than not, thus investigators are able to make determinations.
One dimorphism is height. When, in your area, the average height of a woman is 1.65 m and the male average is 1.75 m, you are more right than not by assuming a 1.69 m tall skeleton is female.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Here's the question. Looking at the current situation in the USA, it seems to me that we can only come to some kind of peaceful agreement on abortion if both sides compromise. Pro-life people must allow some abortions and pro-choice people must accept some restrictions. Then, once the compromise is reached, most people have to accept it and abide by it.

I'm not proposing any particular solution, just saying that we can't go on like this forever.

What do you think?
I think you're trying to pick a screw using a lockpick. Instead use a screwdriver. We have an obsession with the afterlife. There will be no compromise unless that changes. Everything, absolutely, has to do with the afterlife. It is a painful subject and the real objection. You talk about abortion, but you ignore the real crux. Hence abortion is considered to be murder, and this will continue and increase. The laws will change to reflect it and to shut down abortion. If you think people will allow murder you are incorrect. You wouldn't. Nobody would. Deal with the real issue (obsession with the afterlife), and then you can get a reasonable compromise on abortion. That's what I think.

Current liberal or leftist interest in a compromise on abortion is doomed, because it does not address the issue that really is causing the objection to abortion. It is the obsession with an afterlife. I don't know if there is any way to change this or not in a short period of time. It took 50 years, but the afterlife obsessed got the Supreme Court to reverse Roe vs. Wade. They are serious about this issue. They will make all abortions illegal if things don't change.

Jerry Springer died, by the way. I wonder if he is in hell or not? Don't you?
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
I think you're trying to pick a screw using a lockpick. Instead use a screwdriver. We have an obsession with the afterlife. There will be no compromise unless that changes. Everything, absolutely, has to do with the afterlife. It is a painful subject and the real objection. You talk about abortion, but you ignore the real crux. Hence abortion is considered to be murder, and this will continue and increase. The laws will change to reflect it and to shut down abortion. If you think people will allow murder you are incorrect. You wouldn't. Nobody would. Deal with the real issue (obsession with the afterlife), and then you can get a reasonable compromise on abortion. That's what I think.

Current liberal or leftist interest in a compromise on abortion is doomed, because it does not address the issue that really is causing the objection to abortion. It is the obsession with an afterlife. I don't know if there is any way to change this or not in a short period of time. It took 50 years, but the afterlife obsessed got the Supreme Court to reverse Roe vs. Wade. They are serious about this issue. They will make all abortions illegal if things don't change.

Jerry Springer died, by the way. I wonder if he is in hell or not? Don't you?

Yet...

According to The Pew Resource Center, "77% of Republicans, 57% of Independents, and 40% of Democrats said they favored the death penalty. 17% of Republicans, 37% of Independents, and 56% of Democrats said they opposed capital punishment." - Dealth Penalty Info.org

Pro-lifers assert life is precious and begins at birth yet: "Five of the nine states that have banned all abortions rank among the 10 worst states for overall child well-being." - Population Reference Bureau

Seems it would follow that if the obsession with the afterlife was a key factor then those states in particular that are highly pro-life would have superb safety nets in place to ensure the safety of children of all ages, not just those in the womb. But, apparently, that's not the case.

Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren’t they? They’re all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you’re born, you’re on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don’t want to know about you. They don’t want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no daycare, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you’re preborn, you’re fine; if you’re preschool, you’re f****d.​
Conservatives don’t give a s#*t about you until you reach “military age”. Then they think you are just fine. Just what they’ve been looking for. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. Pro-life… pro-life… These people aren’t pro-life, they’re killing doctors! What kind of pro-life is that? What, they’ll do anything they can to save a fetus but if it grows up to be a doctor they just might have to kill it. They’re not pro-life. You know what they are? They’re anti-woman. Simple as it gets, anti-woman. They don’t like them. They don’t like women. They believe a woman’s primary role is to function as a broodmare for the state.​
- George Carlin, 1996​

(sad to see little has changed in 27 years)
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Seems it would follow
A compromise is when I give up something, and you give up something. We both hurt a little, so that we can go on forward together. That is not possible under the current circumstances between pro-life and pro-choice groups.

Yet...

According to The Pew Resource Center, "77% of Republicans, 57% of Independents, and 40% of Democrats said they favored the death penalty. 17% of Republicans, 37% of Independents, and 56% of Democrats said they opposed capital punishment." - Dealth Penalty Info.org

Pro-lifers assert life is precious and begins at birth yet: "Five of the nine states that have banned all abortions rank among the 10 worst states for overall child well-being." - Population Reference Bureau

Seems it would follow that if the obsession with the afterlife was a key factor then those states in particular that are highly pro-life would have superb safety nets in place to ensure the safety of children of all ages, not just those in the womb. But, apparently, that's not the case.
Murder is taking the life of someone who is innocent. That word 'Someone' is tied to the belief in the afterlife, the belief that each person is using the human body as a mere shell. Along with that belief goes the belief that if an innocent person is accidentally executed that they will be treated well in the afterlife, so the punishment is excused. Capital punishment is justice. The issue of abortion is about the afterlife, about the human spirit dwelling within a physical body. We as a nation believe that our dead children are in heaven, having left their bodies behind and that murder is when someone causes this to happen on purpose without justification. We also believe that there are consequences for doing so whether it is a fetus or not. How can a person who believes these things compromise on abortion? So there is no compromise to be made under these circumstances.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
A compromise is when I give up something, and you give up something. We both hurt a little, so that we can go on forward together. That is not possible under the current circumstances between pro-life and pro-choice groups.
States controlled by pro-lifers don't see the need to compromise, don't have an interest in compromise, and do not consider the portion of their residents who are pro-choice or could be persuaded to seek a compromise. Not one of the states that have passed anti-abortion legislation has 100% of their residents in agreement with these decisions, most have a majority below 60% (per Pew Research):

Mississippi (59%)
Alabama (58%)
Kentucky (57%)
Louisiana (57%)
Missouri (50%)
Georgia (49%)
Ohio (47%)

Where is the effort to compromise and address the desires of the remaining 41% - 53% of taxpayers?

Murder is taking the life of someone who is innocent. That word 'Someone' is tied to the belief in the afterlife, the belief that each person is using the human body as a mere shell. Along with that belief goes the belief that if an innocent person is accidentally executed that they will be treated well in the afterlife, so the punishment is excused. Capital punishment is justice. The issue of abortion is about the afterlife, about the human spirit dwelling within a physical body. We as a nation believe that our dead children are in heaven, having left their bodies behind and that murder is when someone causes this to happen on purpose without justification. We also believe that there are consequences for doing so whether it is a fetus or not. How can a person who believes these things compromise on abortion? So there is no compromise to be made under these circumstances.

"We as a nation"? What nation are you referring to? The USA is a pluralistic society that has it baked into the Constitution that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" (i.e., Establishment Clause). So no, the claims of one religion don't supercede those of other religions or secular law.

Are you actually claiming that pro-lifers have never taken the life of an innocent person? Where is there a license to be judge, jury, and executioner based on religious belief? Isn't Christ credited with declaring "do not judge, lest ye be judged"? When did human judgment become infallible? Innocent persons have been put to death due to the fervor of pro-life extremists. Innocent persons have been wrongly convicted, awaiting execution or have already been executed.

And if anti-killing is wrong why is pro-military sentiments the strongest among this same lot since killing is a large component of war.

ETA: And if life is of such value, why is there efforts to not support children after they've entered this world and why did you ignore that question? And fixed typo.
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
States controlled by pro-lifers don't see the need to compromise, don't have an interest in compromise, and do not consider the portion of their residents who are pro-choice or could be persuaded to seek a compromise. Not one of the states that have passed anti-abortion legislation has 100% of their residents in agreement with these decisions, most have a majority below 60% (per Pew Research):

Mississippi (59%)
Alabama (58%)
Kentucky (57%)
Louisiana (57%)
Missouri (50%)
Georgia (49%)
Ohio (47%)

Where is the effort to compromise and address the desires of the remaining 41% - 53% of taxpayers?



"We as a nation"? What nation are you referring to? The USA is a pluralistic society that has it baked into the Constitution that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" (i.e., Establishment Clause). So no, the claims of one religion don't supercede those of other religions or secular law.

Are you actually claiming that pro-lifers have never taken the life of an innocent person? Where is there a license to be judge, jury, and executioner based on religious belief? Isn't Christ credited with declaring "do not judge, lest ye be judged"? When did human judgment become infallible? Innocent persons have been put to death due to the fervor of pro-life extremists. Innocent persons have been wrongly convicted, awaiting execution or have already been executed.

And if anti-killing is wrong why is pro-military sentiments the strongest among this same lot since killing is a large component of war.
So… and I’m asking because I’m not American and I’m trying to make sense of this

Do you think the overturning of R v W was unconstitutional?

It’s just that it seems to have a religious bias to the decision. But that goes against the US constitution. Right?
But that law wasn’t protected by the constitution. Was it?

Sorry it’s just a bit confusing for a dumb outsider like myself
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
So… and I’m asking because I’m not American and I’m trying to make sense of this

Do you think the overturning of R v W was unconstitutional?

It’s just that it seems to have a religious bias to the decision. But that goes against the US constitution. Right?
But that law wasn’t protected by the constitution. Was it?

Sorry it’s just a bit confusing for a dumb outsider like myself

With Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court had previously ruled that a woman's right to abortion was constitutional, protected by the 14th Amendment ("no State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."). This was a majority opinion of the Supreme Court.

Despite its lack of accountability (and apparently, growing lack of ethics) the SCOTUS had generally leaned towards expanding individual rights, not negating them. Especially during the 1950s-60s.

In 1992, SCOTUS reaffirmed this position, “After considering the fundamental constitutional questions resolved by Roe, principles of institutional integrity, and the rule of stare decisis, we are led to conclude this: the essential holding of Roe v. Wade should be retained and once again reaffirmed,” - Sandra Day O’Connor, Anthony Kennedy, and David Souter.

However, SCOTUS has become increasingly plagued by corruption, partisan shenanigans delaying appointments of judges to pushing through unqualified ones to stack the Court and keep them in the pockets of wealthy parties ;e.g., see the current issues with Judges Thomas and Gorsuch (not that they're the first and, at this rate, won't be the last).
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
With Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court had previously ruled that a woman's right to abortion was constitutional, protected by the 14th Amendment ("no State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."). This was a majority opinion of the Supreme Court.

Despite its lack of accountability (and apparently, growing lack of ethics) the SCOTUS had generally leaned towards expanding individual rights, not negating them. Especially during the 1950s-60s.

In 1992, SCOTUS reaffirmed this position, “After considering the fundamental constitutional questions resolved by Roe, principles of institutional integrity, and the rule of stare decisis, we are led to conclude this: the essential holding of Roe v. Wade should be retained and once again reaffirmed,” - Sandra Day O’Connor, Anthony Kennedy, and David Souter.

However, SCOTUS has become increasingly plagued by corruption, partisan shenanigans delaying appointments of judges to pushing through unqualified ones to stack the Court and keep them in the pockets of wealthy parties ;e.g., see the current issues with Judges Thomas and Gorsuch (not that they're the first and, at this rate, won't be the last).
Interesting.
Thank you

Informative frubal
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
States controlled by pro-lifers don't see the need to compromise, don't have an interest in compromise, and do not consider the portion of their residents who are pro-choice or could be persuaded to seek a compromise. Not one of the states that have passed anti-abortion legislation has 100% of their residents in agreement with these decisions, most have a majority below 60% (per Pew Research):
That is evidence.

"We as a nation"? What nation are you referring to? The USA is a pluralistic society that has it baked into the Constitution that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" (i.e., Establishment Clause). So no, the claims of one religion don't supercede those of other religions or secular law.

Are you actually claiming that pro-lifers have never taken the life of an innocent person? Where is there a license to be judge, jury, and executioner based on religious belief? Isn't Christ credited with declaring "do not judge, lest ye be judged"? When did human judgment become infallible? Innocent persons have been put to death due to the fervor of pro-life extremists. Innocent persons have been wrongly convicted, awaiting execution or have already been executed.

And if anti-killing is wrong why is pro-military sentiments the strongest among this same lot since killing is a large component of war.

ETA: And if life is of such value, why is there efforts to not support children after they've entered this world and why did you ignore that question? And fixed typo.
I think that is taking this into a different direction. The OP asks if there can be compromise. The last fifty years is evidence that compromise will not occur unless something changes.

"We as a nation"? What nation are you referring to? The USA is a pluralistic society that has it baked into the Constitution that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" (i.e., Establishment Clause). So no, the claims of one religion don't supercede those of other religions or secular law.
More specifically, voters are weak willed, disappointed and often uninformed. A strong, continuous will, tends to win in the long run. That is what we see happening. We do not see pluralistic society controlling the outcome but single issue voters who can be called upon like soldiers to flush other issues in favor of one issue.
 
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