Can you be a Pagan without Psychedelics?

[Psychonaut]

Paganism was centered around cults which were faciitated by the use of Psychedelics. Kykera (LSA) for Greeks, Suma made of Fly Agaric mushrooms for Scythians, Blue lotus for Egyptians, Cactus (Mesculine) for South Americans...for instance.

So how can modern Pagans find spirituality without these tools which were so crucial to the exercise of Shamans?

I jus don't see how you believe what they believed is all I'm saying...

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

Paganism was centered around cults which were faciitated by the use of Psychedelics. Kykera (LSA) for Greeks, Suma made of Fly Agaric mushrooms for Scythians, Blue lotus for Egyptians, Cactus (Mesculine) for South Americans...for instance.

So how can modern Pagans find spirituality without these tools which were so crucial to the exercise of Shamans?

I jus don't see how you believe what they believed is all I'm saying...

Well you've given only four examples of different Pagans. There are many other Pagan religions, so I think it's pretty easy to be Pagan without psychedelics. And not all Shamans relied on them either.

 

[Revasser]

"Pagan" is a term that encompasses a huge number of often very different religions and belief systems. Applying any kind of blanket attribute to pagans modern or ancient and saying "pagan's did/do this..." is likely to be wrong much or most of the time.

Not all ancient pagans were shaman. The vast majority were not, in fact. And of those who were, not all would have used psychoactives to achieve "shamanic" results and not in all cultures. Yet somehow, so many common, non-shamanic folk still managed to hold the beliefs of their people without chemical assistance. Imagine that!

Therefore, what is the imperative for modern pagans here? Not all profess to be shaman and of those who do, only very few would be accepted as such by any community.

 

[Psychonaut]

I don't find your responses as a challenge to the problem you face as self-acclaimed pagans. Whether it's the priests of Vestal Virgins or Druids, who were fond of Mushrooms, or the Angels of Death (Norse shamanistic women) who were fond of amphetamines (so were their berserkers), or the priestly cast of the Hindu, also fond of soma, or the priests of Anatolia who made their hats in the shape of the Liberty Cap mushroom.

So to discount my argument based on my limited examples is moot. It is far more evidenced that all ancient religions were built on Psychedelics.

Why don't you do them? Why not? What is there to lose? Etc etc...

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I don't find your responses as a challenge to the problem you face as self-acclaimed pagans. Whether it's the priests of Vestal Virgins or Druids, who were fond of Mushrooms, or the Angels of Death (Norse shamanistic women) who were fond of amphetamines (so were their berserkers), or the priestly cast of the Hindu, also fond of soma, or the priests of Anatolia who made their hats in the shape of the Liberty Cap mushroom.

So to discount my argument based on my limited examples is moot. It is far more evidenced that all ancient religions were built on Psychedelics.

Why don't you do them? Why not? What is there to lose? Etc etc...

Your own definition of a Pagan implicitly implies that one must take psychedelics to be Pagan, and thus any contrary examples given to you would be automatically shunned by your mentality. Why do you think it's useful to argue in such a way other than to make apparent your idolatry for drugs? Is it disconcerting to think that other people may have grasped certain things that didn't become apparent to you until after you tried psychedelics? Interestingly, these drugs have the capacity to increase egotism rather than humility.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

I don't find your responses as a challenge to the problem you face as self-acclaimed pagans. Whether it's the priests of Vestal Virgins or Druids, who were fond of Mushrooms, or the Angels of Death (Norse shamanistic women) who were fond of amphetamines (so were their berserkers), or the priestly cast of the Hindu, also fond of soma, or the priests of Anatolia who made their hats in the shape of the Liberty Cap mushroom.

So to discount my argument based on my limited examples is moot. It is far more evidenced that all ancient religions were built on Psychedelics.

Why don't you do them? Why not? What is there to lose? Etc etc...

There is no evidence to say that Berserkrs were fond of any psychedelics. I've never heard of the Angels of Death though. The Berserkrs were the Elites of any army, and were sent in before the rest of the army to demoralize the enemy. They worked themselves into a frenzy by beating on their shields and chanting. Of all the psychedelics I know of, I don't think any of them would make anyone go into a killing frenzy and be oblivious to pain. All the people who I know that have done psychedelics have sat around oblivious to their surroundings.

Not all ancient religions were built on psychedelics. There may be many cults that focused on them, but major religions of ancient times were not built on them.


I don't do them because they are detrimental to one's health. I could lose my life for one, either through doing something that I am not aware of under the influence, or giving myself cancer by putting toxic substances into my body.

 

[Psychonaut]

The behavior of berserkers were exactly that of the effects of amphetamines, if it quacks like a duck it probably is. Amphetamines are pretty available in Scandanavia from the Fly Agaric. My definition of Pagan is old religions not associated with Christianity.

Better the question is how do YOU find religious inspiration from people who derived their religion from use of Psychedelics when you yourself will not use those same psychedelics??

Are you saying your pagan beliefs are not inspired by actual pagans of the anciet world?

 

[Psychonaut]

Your own definition of a Pagan implicitly implies that one must take psychedelics to be Pagan, and thus any contrary examples given to you would be automatically shunned by your mentality. Why do you think it's useful to argue in such a way other than to make apparent your idolatry for drugs? Is it disconcerting to think that other people may have grasped certain things that didn't become apparent to you until after you tried psychedelics? Interestingly, these drugs have the capacity to increase egotism rather than humility.

Actually drugs have the particular capacity to destroy ones ego, not enhance it.

And I've discovered things on Drugs you've never thought of, but when you're ready to learn instead of castigate then maybe we can talk about the profound difference of what ever you think your revelations have been compared to those of the drug community.

Drug users all have had experiences so similar to those of all religions there is a powerful connection of which you can only imagine.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

The behavior of berserkers were exactly that of the effects of amphetamines, if it quacks like a duck it probably is. Amphetamines are pretty available in Scandanavia from the Fly Agaric. My definition of Pagan is old religions not associated with Christianity.

Better the question is how do YOU find religious inspiration from people who derived their religion from use of Psychedelics when you yourself will not use those same psychedelics??

Are you saying your pagan beliefs are not inspired by actual pagans of the ancient world?

Because my religion is not a religion that had anything to do with any drugs. And whether or not the Berserkrs ever used amphetamines, if they used them it wasn't for religious purposes anyway. It was to get rid of pain and go into a frenzy to crush the enemy. And if some used them, there were also many who didn't. I follow the religion of the Anglo-Saxons who lived in England, and I also incorporate the religion of the Pagan Germans and Scandinavians (mostly because they are all so closely related). They didn't use any sort of drug, and if they did, it wasn't for religion, like I said before.

By your definition of Paganism, there are many religions still not associated with chemical use.

 

[Psychonaut]

Because my religion is not a religion that had anything to do with any drugs. And whether or not the Berserkrs ever used amphetamines, if they used them it wasn't for religious purposes anyway. It was to get rid of pain and go into a frenzy to crush the enemy. And if some used them, there were also many who didn't. I follow the religion of the Anglo-Saxons who lived in England, and I also incorporate the religion of the Pagan Germans and Scandinavians (mostly because they are all so closely related). They didn't use any sort of drug, and if they did, it wasn't for religion, like I said before.

By your definition of Paganism, there are many religions still not associated with chemical use.

Life is religious, and drugs are a powerful door to tha aspect of life. It's pretty evident that all indigenous religions relied on chemical use for their divinations, you don't think they were prophesying out of their *** did you??

When I get to a computer I'll help you with some resources but I suggest you also look into psychedelics and European tribal religions.

The Celtic religion is heavily built on Mushrooms, their link to the spirit world, which is referenced in the form of "Fairies". Fairies are anthropomorphic analogies of mushrooms, seem via the idea of the Fairie Ring which is a door way to the spirit world which is known today as that mysterious ring of mushrooms which grow around trees or in fields.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

Life is religious, and drugs are a powerful door to tha aspect of life. It's pretty evident that all indigenous religions relied on chemical use for their divinations, you don't think they were prophesying out of their *** did you??

When I get to a computer I'll help you with some resources but I suggest you also look into psychedelics and European tribal religions.

The Celtic religion is heavily built on Mushrooms, their link to the spirit world, which is referenced in the form of "Fairies". Fairies are anthropomorphic analogies of mushrooms, seem via the idea of the Fairie Ring which is a door way to the spirit world which is known today as that mysterious ring of mushrooms which grow around trees or in fields.

My indigenous religion does not, and did not, rely on chemical use. And I never said anything about the Celts, by the way. If you can show me some evidence of the Anglo-Saxons, Germans, or Scandinavians using drugs for religious purposes, then maybe I'd believe you, although I still wouldn't use drugs. They are detrimental to one's health, and I'd rather be healthy that exactly as my ancestors. Like I said before, the only thing that the Scandinavians were likely to have used any sort of drug was Berserkrgang. And even then, drugs seem unlikely for the reason that they also went berserk when they were doing laborious work unexpectedly. Because of the lack of evidence, I'm going to stick with the theory that they worked themselves into a trance-like frenzy.

 

[Psychonaut]

My indigenous religion does not, and did not, rely on chemical use. And I never said anything about the Celts, by the way. If you can show me some evidence of the Anglo-Saxons, Germans, or Scandinavians using drugs for religious purposes, then maybe I'd believe you, although I still wouldn't use drugs. They are detrimental to one's health, and I'd rather be healthy that exactly as my ancestors. Like I said before, the only thing that the Scandinavians were likely to have used any sort of drug was Berserkrgang. And even then, drugs seem unlikely for the reason that they also went berserk when they were doing laborious work unexpectedly. Because of the lack of evidence, I'm going to stick with the theory that they worked themselves into a trance-like frenzy.

Norse religion relied upon the tradition of the Völvas, women who were prophetesses, sorceresses and shamans. Such attributed are closely associated with Drugs. You do not have sorcery or prophecy without them and all ancient cultures refer to such sorcery.

If you're curious about Neose Paganism read about Völva and Psychedelics. I don't know how you guys practice pagan religions when you don't even have the original religious strictures.

It's like driving a car without a car...like a cargo cult of ancient religions. Worshipping without knowing why or how really.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

Norse religion relied upon the tradition of the Völvas, women who were prophetesses, sorceresses and shamans. Such attributed are closely associated with Drugs. You do not have sorcery or prophecy without them and all ancient cultures refer to such sorcery.

If you're curious about Neose Paganism read about Völva and Psychedelics. I don't know how you guys practice pagan religions when you don't even have the original religious strictures.

It's like driving a car without a car...like a cargo cult of ancient religions. Worshipping without knowing why or how really.

No, Norse religion did not rely on the Völva. I'm not curious about Norse Paganism, I know about it already, obviously. There were Völva, who were much like the Greek oracles, but they didn't rely on them. They practiced Seiðr, which was considered feminine, which is why only women practiced it. So then if you say that they did the drugs, then it was only the women. So me, a male, wouldn't have been doing drugs, and therefore worshiping in the same way that I am today. There were no religious structures, because each tribe, each family, or each kindred had their own way pf practicing and worshiping. If you look into modern Asatru, the structure is there, based off of the Icelandic structure, which is the most preserved.

 

[Gloone]

I did not think hallucinogens were needed to be a pagan, but you seem to think different. What type of hallucinogens do you suggest?

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Actually drugs have the particular capacity to destroy ones ego, not enhance it.

And I've discovered things on Drugs you've never thought of, but when you're ready to learn instead of castigate then maybe we can talk about the profound difference of what ever you think your revelations have been compared to those of the drug community.

Drug users all have had experiences so similar to those of all religions there is a powerful connection of which you can only imagine.

There is a tad bit of irony here. Trust me, you're preaching to the wrong person.

Having said that, I'm awaiting this thread to be locked or deleted, and personally I don't want a third infraction here for talking about illegal substances, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Noaidi]

Can you be a pagan without psychedelics? Sure you can. There's nothing in 'the pagan handbook' that says psychedelics are a part of paganism. 'Pagan' is such a wide term anyway. This is not to say that psychedelics don't have a role in some traditions, though. Can you narrow down your focus and perhaps intimate what branches of paganism you mean?

 

[Revasser]

Perhaps you could provide us with some reputable, scholarly sources for this information?

For now it seems you're simply trying to use some as yet unsupported assumptions about ancient religion to justify and aggrandise the modern use of illicit drugs.

 

[Gloone]

Can you be a pagan without psychedelics? Sure you can. There's nothing in 'the pagan handbook' that says psychedelics are a part of paganism. 'Pagan' is such a wide term anyway. This is not to say that psychedelics don't have a role in some traditions, though. Can you narrow down your focus and perhaps intimate what branches of paganism you mean?

I would like to know which branches he is talking about too. A certain song comes to mind.

[youtube]GGXeXm0uMDo[/youtube]

 

[Noaidi]

I would like to know which branches he is talking about too. A certain song comes to mind.

[youtube]GGXeXm0uMDo[/youtube]

Now, that was a band that knew their psychedelics!

 

[Psychonaut]

Perhaps the question is better put this way...there is a lot of aspects of all pagan religions that have ben shown (scholarly work) or are easily inferred to be the result of psychedelics. I wouldn't say all pagans did drugs but that pagans believed in religions which were the work of people doing psychedelics.