Can You Choose To Believe/Disbelieve?

[Nanda]

Having said that, i also believe it is possible for someone to create a belief within themselves from nothing. It has to be possible, as a similar process is involved in brainwashing and indoctrinating children.
So, perhaps someone couldn't wake up with a rock solid belief in Zeus, but maybe if they devoted time everyday to thinking about Zeus, praying to Zeus, wanting to believe etc, then eventually that devotion could evolve into belief.

Doubleplusgood.

 

[Willamena]

Having said that, i also believe it is possible for someone to create a belief within themselves from nothing. It has to be possible, as a similar process is involved in brainwashing and indoctrinating children.
So, perhaps someone couldn't wake up with a rock solid belief in Zeus, but maybe if they devoted time everyday to thinking about Zeus, praying to Zeus, wanting to believe etc, then eventually that devotion could evolve into belief.

What is the difference between that and from something?

 

[PureX]

PureX, there's an enormous difference between trying to see both sides of an issue and believing with all your conviction that something supernatural exists.

Not really. They're both a choice. We can choose to try and see both (or more) possible truths within the reality around us, or we can choose to doggedly insist that a given "truth" is the one and only possible truth. And in either case we may be making our choice without conscious awareness, or with it.

 

[Nanda]

We can choose to try

There! That's it right there. We can choose to try. Yes, we can choose to try, but we can't choose to actually believe. What we learn from trying might lead us to belief, but we can't forcably choose to believe.

 

[Wandered Off]

What's the difference? How could choosing to believe in something I don't believe in be any different than simply wanting to believe?

I see how I worded that poorly. :sorry1:

Yeah, when I said that you could want to believe but not believe, that wording confused two different propositions, belief in an object and the object itself.

When someone wants to be a believer but can't be convinced, I think he or she isn't as much wanting to believe but rather wanting the situation (object of belief) to be true so that justified belief would be the effect, as in my Santa example. Someone can want there to be a God to believe in and yet not be convinced that there is one. We certainly can wish things were different from what we see, but I don't think we can believe in something we don't want to believe in.

I'm really struggling to put this coherently, but let's try another example. I see images of immense suffering in the world. I don't want there to be suffering, but I see evidence of it. I have to reconcile these opposing impulses one way or the other. I could simply believe that it isn't really happening and find some way to rationalize away the evidence, or I could accept the evidence and realize that the situation doesn't match up with my wishes. In order to make sense of what I observe, it is easier for me to believe that my wishes aren't always fulfilled based on past experience, so I choose to believe that the suffering exists. If I were to deny it, there would be other consequences that I find worse than concluding my wishes weren't met. I still choose to believe, even though doing so is unpleasant. It is how I assign meaning to my observations.

 

[PureX]

What if I chose to believe in God, but never actually believe? Isn't that lying to yourself?

Human beings are more complex then that question implies. We can both believe and doubt simultaneously. And in fact, this is the case more often then not, with us. We "believe" lots of things, but that doesn't mean that we don't still have some doubt as to the accuracy of those beliefs. In fact, I seriously doubt that a human being can believe anything absolutely. I know we sometimes claim that we do, but I suspect that it's not really possible for a sane person.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Could you choose not to believe in God? Would you actually stop believing?

A certain set of circumstances and events led me to believe. A different set of circumstances and events could lead me in the opposite direction. People's outlooks, opinions, minds, all change. Some people remain believers because nothing has led them to become disbelievers. The same is true in the opposite direction. If we could not choose to believe there wouldn't be a such thing as a atheist becoming a theist and vice versa.

 

[worshiper]

Could you choose not to believe in God? Would you actually stop believing?

looks like the debate of choice is at it again

sweet Nanda (i mean it literally, not cynically)

i admit, our belief is predetermined since birth. but those belief can either be changed with new found experience or be reinforced. that is when you choose sides. it doesn't happen in a snap of a finger. it is a gradual process.

let me give you an example, i saw on Oprah once about child prostitution. i cant remember if it was thailand or vietnam or somewhere in that area. anyways .. the children believe that being a prostitute is normal coz their poor parents approve them. to the extent that their family members were actually their pimp.

but let say that, that kid is saved from that situation and raised in a family environment where prostitution is a grotesque thing. the girl gradually understands why these new family think that prostitution is bad. now that girl have a choice whether to approve or disaprove prostitution. some will follow their "inner self" some will follow their rational mind. its a choice that everyone makes.

 

[UnTheist]

Doesn't choosing imply you have "options"? If someone likes vanilla more than chocolate, does that mean they 'chose' to like vanilla more than chocolate?

 

[Nanda]

I could simply believe that it isn't really happening and find some way to rationalize away the evidence, or I could accept the evidence and realize that the situation doesn't match up with my wishes.

So it is lying to yourself.

 

[Nanda]

If we could not choose to believe there wouldn't be a such thing as a atheist becoming a theist and vice versa.

Where is the choice? It's true that certain experiences can lead you down one path or the other, even to changing your mind, but what you're choosing is your path, not the belief.

 

[Nanda]

Human beings are more complex then that question implies. We can both believe and doubt simultaneously. And in fact, this is the case more often then not, with us. We "believe" lots of things, but that doesn't mean that we don't still have some doubt as to the accuracy of those beliefs. In fact, I seriously doubt that a human being can believe anything absolutely. I know we sometimes claim that we do, but I suspect that it's not really possible for a sane person.

Again, there's a considerable difference between doubt and outright disbelief. Apples and oranges.

 

[Nanda]

sweet Nanda (i mean it literally, not cynically)

Either way, I'd rather you didn't, if it's all the same.

i admit, our belief is predetermined since birth. but those belief can either be changed with new found experience or be reinforced. that is when you choose sides. it doesn't happen in a snap of a finger. it is a gradual process.

What you're talking about here, again, is choosing the path you take to belief, not belief itself.

 

[worshiper]

What you're talking about here, again, is choosing the path you take to belief, not belief itself.

your belief now is the predetermined belief plus your accumulated experience which affect your belief.

p/s: sorry if i offended you by calling you sweet. i will refrain from doing that.

 

[Nanda]

your belief now is the predetermined belief plus your accumulated experience which affect your belief.

I'm not really sure what you're saying.

p/s: sorry if i offended you by calling you sweet. i will refrain from doing that.

I'm not offended, I just don't really like it; it always sounds condescending. It's ok, you didn't know.

 

[lunamoth]

Can a person actually choose to believe in deity? That's to say, if someone has no experience of deity, can they choose to believe in deity, or will there always be a part of them that doubts?

Can a person actually choose NOT to believe in deity? Again, that's to say, if a someone has an experience of deity, can they choose not to believe in deity, or will there always be a part of them that believes?

Is there some important sense in which a person can neither choose to believe something nor choose not to believe something? If so, what sense is that? If not, why not?

IF a person chooses to believe something they don't really believe -- or chooses not to believe something they really believe -- what happens to them emotionally? What are the psychological or spiritual consequences of such a course of action? Do they loose touch with themselves and their values?

I think we choose how we express our experience of life, as Purex says. For me it was through a combination of experience and critical thinking I concluded that there is God, the More, the Ground of Being. If I had not bothered to think about it, if I had never been motivated to decide, I could have drifted on in secular agnosticism for the rest of my life. It does not feel like I made a choice to start this process...it just happened. But I had to give my assent for it to go anywhere, and that was a choice. Evolutionary behaviorists may conclude that every element of my nature and nurture since birth lead me to that moment. I choose to believe that the Spirit moved me.

 

[PureX]

Again, there's a considerable difference between doubt and outright disbelief. Apples and oranges.

Not really. Belief and disbelief are rarely absolute. Both include some degree of doubt, and that's where the choice comes in - the choice to acknowledge the doubt, or to try and ignore and deny it.

 

[eudaimonia]

If anyone here really believes that belief is always a choice, then go for a week believing -- honestly believing -- that Santa Clause is real. Then pass a lie detector test.

Perhaps some rare individual can do this, but I'll bet that most people are incapable of doing this.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[PureX]

If anyone here really believes that belief is always a choice, then go for a week believing -- honestly believing -- that Santa Clause is real. Then pass a lie detector test.

Perhaps some rare individual can do this, but I'll bet that most people are incapable of doing this.


eudaimonia,

Mark

But few beliefs involve such simple and objective subjects. You are picking a very biased example.

The real subject of this conversation is belief in deity. And that is not even remotely so simple. Almost no one believes in deity absolutely. Some people claim that they do, but in truth it's very likely that they have their doubts, too, but are just choosing to ignore those doubts, and deny them to us. And they may be aware of their doing this or they may not be.

The point, though, is that when some degree of doubt is present, which is almost always the case, then we have a choice whether or not we will acknowledge that doubt, and to what degree we will acknowledge it. And the result of that choice will effect the way we perceive the world around us. It will effect what we recognize as "evidence" for or against our believing.

You will notice that those who claim that they believe in deity absolutely, also tend not to recognize any evidence contrary to their chosen belief. And the same goes for those who claim that they absolutely do NOT believe in deity. They, too, will tend to ignore and deny any evidence that might suggest that their chosen belief is wrong. And even among those who accept their own doubts and confusion regarding the existence of deity, will tend to be biased in favor of their preconceptions.

What we see in the world around us is very often determined by the way we choose to look at that world. And in this way, we tend to see the "evidence" that we set ourselves up to see, and we tend to experience the world in the way that we set ourselves up to experience it, and therefor to believe about the world what we have chosen to believe by the evidence and experiences we've created for ourselves. And again, we may be aware that we're doing this, or we may not be. Very often we are not aware of it.

 

[eudaimonia]

But few beliefs involve such simple and objective subjects. You are picking a very biased example.

I don't see how this is such a biased example, but please feel free to give a better example.


eudaimonia,

Mark