Can You Choose to Believe?

[Trailblazer]

No matter how hard i try it falls flat. And no amount of convincing works either. Such is the case of religion in general.

I wonder if the reason is confirmation bias, you having been a Christian in the past. Most agnostics and atheists I know were formerly Christians and NOW they cannot believe in ANY religion because in their mind, all religions are the SAME as Christianity.

 

[Muffled]

It is entirely possible that, having direct experience with your take on theism, your children learned firsthand that such is not their way.

While I sympathise that it can be frustrating and painful for a parent to see such a thing happen, and I wish that you could be spared of such heavy feelings, I know for a fact that many, many people simply can't come to believe in the God of the Bible, let alone to perceive Him as a very central fact of their lives.

I don't know if it helps, but maybe you could reflect on the fact that if God wanted your children to be believers, nothing could possibly stop them from being such.

If you will forgive me for being so generous with assumptions about your life and God's wishes about it, allow me to propose also that it is conceivable that God may want you to learn better the difference between the joys of parenthood and the joys of having brothers of faith.

I believe what I am saying is that they had the right environment but chose to go a different way. I believe for me I may have formed a relationship in a previous life because I entered this life from Heaven and that means I must have known how to get to Heaven in a previous life. My brothers had the same environment as me but did not choose that way either. I did have a brother who claimed to meet God through taking LSD. I perceive that as a distinct possibility.

 

[Muffled]

Can we choose what to believe?

I do not choose so.

Ciao

- viole

I believe He who does not choose is like a ship in a storm. He will go where the storm takes him.

 

[Muffled]

Baha’u’llah wrote that the Bible is God’s Greatest Testimony to His Creatures. I guess it means it is evidence.

They say we do not evidence and that the Bible and the Writings of Baha’u’llah are not evidence at all, but as yet I have not encountered an atheist who has any better ideas of how God could communicate to humanity.

Insulting our intelligence just demonstrates that they do not have any good arguments to refute our evidence. That is what people do when they cannot refute, they insult.

I believe that is only evidence if you choose to believe the B man knows what he is talking about.

 

[osgart]

I wonder if the reason is confirmation bias, you having been a Christian in the past. Most agnostics and atheists I know were formerly Christians and NOW they cannot believe in ANY religion because in their mind, all religions are the SAME as Christianity.

I am a pragmatist, nature itself has convinced me that there are no gods. I do enjoy reading Gleanings though and it would be great if things were that way.

Christianity has made me very skeptical of most every other religion. Islam seems to be the same kind of deal as Christianity.

I dont need mythology and i would prefer religions that do not rely on fables as a source of faith. I also deny that jesus even existed. It is interesting how generations of stories build on previous generations of stories, and how mythos influences people for a very long time. I dont feel the need to believe in such things as to the fate or destiny of my own soul. It does not seem right.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that is only evidence if you choose to believe the B man knows what he is talking about.

It is evidence to me if I choose to believe that Baha’u’llah got a message from God. However, what I believe does not make it evidence. It is either evidence of a false prophet or it is evidence of a Messenger of God.

If Baha’u’llah was a liar and a false prophet, the Writings of Baha’u’llah are evidence of a false prophet, but if Baha’u’llah was telling the truth, the Writings of Baha’u’llah are evidence of a Messenger of God who was the Return of Christ, the Messiah, and the Promised One of all the religions of the past.

I am pretty big on logic. I hope that makes sense to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am a pragmatist, nature itself has convinced me that there are no gods. I do enjoy reading Gleanings though and it would be great if things were that way.

Can you explain why nature convinced you of that?

How do you know things are not the way it says in Gleanings? What if they were?

Christianity has made me very skeptical of most every other religion. Islam seems to be the same kind of deal as Christianity.

I think Islam is a cut above Christianity but nevertheless it has been somewhat corrupted by its followers so in that sense it is not that different from Christianity. It is however different in that it accepts all the Messengers of God who preceded Muhammad whereas Christianity is exclusivist in its theology. Of course I am looking at the Qur’an from the eyes of a Baha’i, so I believe it is the Word of God. What Muslims did to change that is a different story.

I dont need mythology and i would prefer religions that do not rely on fables as a source of faith. I also deny that jesus even existed. It is interesting how generations of stories build on previous generations of stories, and how mythos influences people for a very long time. I dont feel the need to believe in such things as to the fate or destiny of my own soul. It does not seem right.

What brought you to the conclusion that Jesus never existed?

It might not seem right that the fate or destiny of your soul depends upon what you believe, and maybe it does not fully depend upon that, but if what Baha’u’llah wrote is the truth, there are certain repercussions for not recognizing Him as the Manifestation of God for this day. I cannot say exactly what the repercussions are; I can only say the high station to which we attain when we recognize Baha’u’llah and observe His ordinances. Baha’u’llah referred to these as the Twin Duties.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

 

[osgart]

Can you explain why nature convinced you of that?

How do you know things are not the way it says in Gleanings? What if they were?

I think Islam is a cut above Christianity but nevertheless it has been somewhat corrupted by its followers so in that sense it is not that different from Christianity. It is however different in that it accepts all the Messengers of God who preceded Muhammad whereas Christianity is exclusivist in its theology. Of course I am looking at the Qur’an from the eyes of a Baha’i, so I believe it is the Word of God. What Muslims did to change that is a different story.

What brought you to the conclusion that Jesus never existed?

It might not seem right that the fate or destiny of your soul depends upon what you believe, and maybe it does not fully depend upon that, but if what Baha’u’llah wrote is the truth, there are certain repercussions for not recognizing Him as the Manifestation of God for this day. I cannot say exactly what the repercussions are; I can only say the high station to which we attain when we recognize Baha’u’llah and observe His ordinances. Baha’u’llah referred to these as the Twin Duties.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

Well in nature animals have to eat animals just to survive. As do humans. And people get far removed from the wild, but creation is savage. Just watch david attenborough shows about nature and you will see there is no laws but what we create in nature. Why would God create such a lawless place? And with ugly creatures such as dinosaurs, and kimodo dragons. Animals are as alive as humans are. Nature is fierce to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well in nature animals have to eat animals just to survive. As do humans. And people get far removed from the wild, but creation is savage. Just watch david attenborough shows about nature and you will see there is no laws but what we create in nature. Why would God create such a lawless place? And with ugly creatures such as dinosaurs, and kimodo dragons. Animals are as alive as humans are. Nature is fierce to me.

I wonder about that too... The biggest issue I have with God is why He created a world with so much suffering, especially the suffering and death of animals, who are innocent and sinless, even in the wild... What makes it all the worse is that we do not know that the animals have recompense in an afterlife like humans do. Why did't God reveal this to any Prophet? If God created animals out of love, I do not understand why scriptures do not address animals as well as humans.

I am no doubt closer to animals than I am to humans and my heart breaks every time one of my cats passes on, and to where? It is the closest I ever get to losing faith in God, but because of Baha'u'llah I never lose faith. I just get angry at God for a while.

All that said, i think that there is order to nature and the universe, we just do not fully understand it. I think it will become clear after we die and go to the spiritual world. Many things will become clear. Meanwhile, all we can do is wonder.

 

[osgart]

I wonder about that too... The biggest issue I have with God is why He created a world with so much suffering, especially the suffering and death of animals, who are innocent and sinless, even in the wild... What makes it all the worse is that we do not know that the animals have recompense in an afterlife like humans do. Why did't God reveal this to any Prophet? If God created animals out of love, I do not understand why scriptures do not address animals as well as humans.

I am no doubt closer to animals than I am to humans and my heart breaks every time one of my cats passes on, and to where? It is the closest I ever get to losing faith in God, but because of Baha'u'llah I never lose faith. I just get angry at God for a while.

All that said, i think that there is order to nature and the universe, we just do not fully understand it. I think it will become clear after we die and go to the spiritual world. Many things will become clear. Meanwhile, all we can do is wonder.

I suppose there is the perspective that something went terribly wrong with creation. Or that somehow we all deserve to be here in these conditions. Or that there is some sort of anti force in the world.

But why not that creation is just plain indifferent to life?

 

[Trailblazer]

I suppose there is the perspective that something went terribly wrong with creation. Or that somehow we all deserve to be here in these conditions. Or that there is some sort of anti force in the world.

But why not that creation is just plain indifferent to life?

No, I don't think it is any of the above. I think it is just the way we are viewing it, through a glass darkly.
There are simply things we cannot understand while still on this side of the veil.
We will know more after we die... It will all become clear.
Sometimes that seems like a dirty trick but that is just the way it is when we are dealing with an Omnipotent God.

 

[`mud]

A whole bunch of mankind is involved in some `fear` of their `gods`.
The rest of us aren't in fear of any `gods`, just the fear of others.
Do we have to fear the Cosmos ? Not more than Cosmos itself.
Do we have to fear the Stuff in life, yes ! As long as one doesn't respect it.
We came from Life's Stuff and we will return to it,
sans `gods` and the Cosmos itself.

 

[rstrats]

re: "Can You Choose to Believe?"

No, not consciously. At least I have never been able to consciously choose any of the beliefs that I have, nor has anyone that I have asked if they can choose to believe things ever demonstrated such an ability.

 

[Thief]

re: "Can You Choose to Believe?"

No, not consciously. At least I have never been able to consciously choose any of the beliefs that I have, nor has anyone that I have asked if they can choose to believe things ever demonstrated such an ability.

so you have no litmus test for the head nodding you perform?

 

[Thief]

It is evidence to me if I choose to believe that Baha’u’llah got a message from God. However, what I believe does not make it evidence. It is either evidence of a false prophet or it is evidence of a Messenger of God.

If Baha’u’llah was a liar and a false prophet, the Writings of Baha’u’llah are evidence of a false prophet, but if Baha’u’llah was telling the truth, the Writings of Baha’u’llah are evidence of a Messenger of God who was the Return of Christ, the Messiah, and the Promised One of all the religions of the past.

I am pretty big on logic. I hope that makes sense to you.

in brief words...?
you know a tree by the fruit it bears

 

[rstrats]

Thief,
re: "so you have no litmus test for the head nodding you perform?"


I don't understand what you mean. I wonder if you could elaborate?

 

[Willamena]

Suppose there are different ways of knowing and/or believing something. Say, one way to believe something is to become intellectually convinced of it through reasoned argument, but another way to believe something is to experience it.

The difference between believing the tree in my back yard is real because I told you it is, and one night stumbling into it.

So, can you choose to believe?

Is it really a "different way" of knowing, though? I have knowledge of the tree in one case, and in another I have knowledge of something you told me. It doesn't seem to me that it's the "knowing" that has changed, but the subject of knowing.

Every word that comes out of people's lips must be taken with a grain of salt, because it is filtered through various frameworks of language, culture, personal preference, and metaphysics. If belief is an investment in the appearance of truth as truth, then what you're believing in other people's words isn't a tree, but their veracity, their honesty, their accuracy, and their sanity. You're believing in belief.

 

[Thief]

Thief,
re: "so you have no litmus test for the head nodding you perform?"


I don't understand what you mean. I wonder if you could elaborate?

I got the impression.....you make no effort to sort through the rational
that leads to your belief

you simply believe?
you made no choice of your own concern.....and other people told you
what to believe

and you just nod your head?

 

[rstrats]

Thief,
re: "I got the impression.....you make no effort to sort through the rational..."

How do you know when you've sorted through enough rational?



re: "you made no choice of your own..."

That is correct - at least not a conscious choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

in brief words...?
you know a tree by the fruit it bears

Jesus explained this adequately...

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.​

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary