Can you Claim Enlightenement Whilst Still Being a Follower?

[wizanda]

Buddha found enlightenment by going off on his own after sitting under the Bodhi tree, Yeshua became enlightened after his time alone in the wilderness...
So why would people presume by being a loyal sheep, one day they will become a shepherd?

 

[sandandfoam]

Buddha found enlightenment by going off on his own after sitting under the Bodhi tree, Yeshua became enlightened after his time alone in the wilderness...
So why would people presume by being a loyal sheep, one day they will become a shepherd?

The Pureland literature in Buddhism outlines ab Buddhist perspective on the utility of belief. I think there's a lot to be said for their view.

 

[Iti oj]

Buddha found enlightenment by going off on his own after sitting under the Bodhi tree, Yeshua became enlightened after his time alone in the wilderness...
So why would people presume by being a loyal sheep, one day they will become a shepherd?

Any one who claims enlightenment, is not. one can not claim to be enlightened and be so, regardless of being a follower or individual.

 

[wizanda]

Any one who claims enlightenment, is not. one can not claim to be enlightened and be so, regardless of being a follower or individual.

Would partially agree with you, and pondered changing the word as writing the title.... Agreed someone who claims through ego, that they're all that is clearly mistaken.

Yet someone who claims, 'they don't know, and in constantly seeking understanding, they're open to all things', could claim enlightenment, and I'd be open to question how open they are.

 

[Iti oj]

Would partially agree with you, and pondered changing the word as writing the title.... Agreed someone who claims through ego, that they're all that is clearly mistaken.

Yet someone who claims, 'they don't know, and in constantly seeking understanding, they're open to all things', could claim enlightenment, and I'd be open to question how open they are.

IMO Saying "'they don't know, and in constantly seeking understanding, they're open to all things'" is enlightenment. Anything more or less is not.

 

[allfoak]

When one looks through a microscope for the first time and one experiences the awe of seeing a world that is not visible to the naked eye, one experiences a glimpse of what it is like to begin to see beyond the world of appearances through the increased light that comes from the process of the purification of the body and mind .

 

[Unveiled Artist]

1. Buddha found enlightenment by going off on his own after sitting under the Bodhi tree, Yeshua became enlightened after his time alone in the wilderness...

So why would people presume by being a loyal sheep, one day they will become a shepherd?

Nice question. In many cultures there is a mentee and mastor. They both bow to each other. When the mentee is enlightened, they both sit in silence because they have no more to eay to each other. That doesnt mean the mentee can go off by himself now. He still has a mastor who bows to him as he bows to his mastor. Their enlightenment is equal to where they become one as Buddhas with each other (not just isolated Buddhism without.) Its a communional faith which most faiths are.

So in this case when the mentee becomes a shepard he knows where he stands. Neither below or above. But deep respect to his master and communion by sharing like knowledge of life: silence.

Many people idolize. The Buddha new thats how people find enlightenment is to place people they admire above others. Later, he taught he was no better than any of us (read this recently, actually).

Nam.


Edit: an enlighten man knows he is not a shepard but a follower. Thats why Jesus and the Buddha came among the por in spirit and took on their suffering. Theybdidnt promote themselves to higher status just hecause the former has full connection with His creator and the later the sadmahi of his mind, but because they can show humility to bring others from suffering, thats why they can claim enlightenment. (Or claim to be Gods Son).

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Any one who claims enlightenment, is not. one can not claim to be enlightened and be so, regardless of being a follower or individual.

So, one must be dishonest in order to be enlightened?

 

[Iti oj]

So, one must be dishonest in order to be enlightened?

No where did my post suggest that. Me thinks you want to debate for debating sake and see I think neither of us take stock in the "enlightenment" parade it would be pointless.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

No where did my post suggest that. Me thinks you want to debate for debating sake and see I think neither of us take stock in the "enlightenment" parade it would be pointless.

No, seriously. If you are enlightened, then wouldn't it be dishonest to say otherwise?

 

[Iti oj]

No, seriously. If you are enlightened, then wouldn't it be dishonest to say otherwise?

What is your working definition of enlightenment?

and not saying you are enlightened is not the same as saying you are not enlightened.

ultimately any one able to claim would not claim it, for being humble, wise and open to learn are the biggest aspects.

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram

Can you Claim Enlightenement Whilst Still Being a Follower?

firstly the enlightened person seldom claims to be enlightened , he simply behaves in an enlightened way , ...

the epithet of 'enlightened being' is more often than not given retrospectively by those who recognise enlightened qualities in the speach and behavior of the one who is being followed . it takes others time and experience of their own to even begin to recognise enlightened qualities in another .

But if one recognised as an enlightened being choses to follow another it is out of love and reverence to whom so ever he follows , and to set the example to others as to what or who represents truth and who is a true teacher one worthy of being followed , ....

Buddha found enlightenment by going off on his own after sitting under the Bodhi tree, Yeshua became enlightened after his time alone in the wilderness...
So why would people presume by being a loyal sheep, one day they will become a shepherd?

one might be wise to considder that the loyal sheep does not allways follow out of stupidity , but in some respects to follow shows some element of realisation and self sacrifice to a higher truth , ...surrender it self is a sign of higher realisation as it shows understanding that the true nature of the self lay beyond this one bodily existance .

if is a foible of human nature that sees surrender as a weakness .

 

[Kilgore Trout]

ultimately any one able to claim would not claim it, for being humble, wise and open to learn are the biggest aspects.

Right, but if such a state actually exists, and one was honest about it, it wouldn't mean that they weren't humble, wise, or open to learning. Or, is honesty not an aspect of enlightenment?

 

[AnnaCzereda]

Buddha found enlightenment by going off on his own after sitting under the Bodhi tree, Yeshua became enlightened after his time alone in the wilderness...
So why would people presume by being a loyal sheep, one day they will become a shepherd?

I'm not a fan of following anyone as it usually means blind obedience, parroting your mentor and living his life. Inspiration is better, being inspired by various people and things and using them for your own progress. Still the path would be your own.

The question is what enlightenment is and whether once can see the truth and achieve wisdom. In most religions, complete enlightenment is possible only after death. After the pilgrimage of life, death is the final initiation. If one believes in reincarnation, then this process takes much longer.
I recall a certain story I read while I was young. It went like this:

One man desired to see the Truth. Every day he went to the temple of the goddess, Athena, and prayed for enlightenment. One day when he was lying prostrate on the ground embracing the feet of the goddess, he noticed that the statue became alive and started moving. Athena laid her hand on his shoulder and promised to show him the Truth. She took him up the high mountain to the Temple where the Truth dwelled. It was the light covered by ten veils. The goddess told the man that each day he was allowed to tear off one veil. The more veils the man tore off the brighter the light became and the more clearly he could see the Truth.

Finally, only one veil remained and the goddess warned the man that it would be better if it remained in place. But the man was so hungry for wisdom and so curious that he tore off the last veil and in that moment he became blind. He could only hear Athena laughing and saying "You fool, how could you think a mere mortal man can see the Truth without any veils?"

Perhaps, enlightenment is nothing else than realization of one's ignorance. Didn't Socrates say: "I know that I know nothing." Everything we see is filtered through our senses that are imperfect and misleading, our experience, which makes us subjective, our prejudices and ego defenses. Do we even know what enlightenment is? There are so many interpretations. What is wisdom? What is truth? Can they be defined? If not, then how can anyone say they are enlightened or wise?

 

[Unification]

Buddha found enlightenment by going off on his own after sitting under the Bodhi tree, Yeshua became enlightened after his time alone in the wilderness...
So why would people presume by being a loyal sheep, one day they will become a shepherd?

One must seek and find the radiant, magnified awareness on their own, within themselves. A shepherd would help guide the way by not being a shepherd, and guide an individual into their own alone time and to be a sheep whose only shepherd is internal and within them.

 

[Unification]

I'm not a fan of following anyone as it usually means blind obedience, parroting your mentor and living his life. Inspiration is better, being inspired by various people and things and using them for your own progress. Still the path would be your own.

The question is what enlightenment is and whether once can see the truth and achieve wisdom. In most religions, complete enlightenment is possible only after death. After the pilgrimage of life, death is the final initiation. If one believes in reincarnation, then this process takes much longer.
I recall a certain story I read while I was young. It went like this:

One man desired to see the Truth. Every day he went to the temple of the goddess, Athena, and prayed for enlightenment. One day when he was lying prostrate on the ground embracing the feet of the goddess, he noticed that the statue became alive and started moving. Athena laid her hand on his shoulder and promised to show him the Truth. She took him up the high mountain to the Temple where the Truth dwelled. It was the light covered by ten veils. The goddess told the man that each day he was allowed to tear off one veil. The more veils the man tore off the brighter the light became and the more clearly he could see the Truth.

Finally, only one veil remained and the goddess warned the man that it would be better if it remained in place. But the man was so hungry for wisdom and so curious that he tore off the last veil and in that moment he became blind. He could only hear Athena laughing and saying "You fool, how could you think a mere mortal man can see the Truth without any veils?"

Perhaps, enlightenment is nothing else than realization of one's ignorance. Didn't Socrates say: "I know that I know nothing." Everything we see is filtered through our senses that are imperfect and misleading, our experience, which makes us subjective, our prejudices and ego defenses. Do we even know what enlightenment is? There are so many interpretations. What is wisdom? What is truth? Can they be defined? If not, then how can anyone say they are enlightened or wise?

Yes, ignorance to many truths externally is bliss. It becomes like a cat chasing its tail in circles, only the mind chases endless and dead end pursuits. Punching the wind and forgetting what a fulfilled life in the present is about. Exchanging an inner fulfilled life for an external life of pursuits of emptiness. Exchanging a life of "knowing" for "knowledge."

Realization of ones own ignorance, realization of the truth about oneself, self realization internally is sufficient.
When we know internal truth, that is everything we need. We know ourselves, we can know others. When we know ourselves from the inside, we know that the inside is the same as the outside.

 

[arthra]

Buddha found enlightenment by going off on his own after sitting under the Bodhi tree, Yeshua became enlightened after his time alone in the wilderness...
So why would people presume by being a loyal sheep, one day they will become a shepherd?

Recall that before the Buddha sat under the Bo tree He was with some anchorites and practised asceticism? And before Jesus went into the wilderness He went to John the Baptist and was baptized? Shepherds sometimes learn from being followers...

 

[Lyndon]

In the Buddhist tradition, enlightenment means complete awareness, of the true nature of things, it has nothing whatsoever to do with any kind of ignorance from what I understand.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Buddha found enlightenment by going off on his own after sitting under the Bodhi tree, Yeshua became enlightened after his time alone in the wilderness...
So why would people presume by being a loyal sheep, one day they will become a shepherd?

I'm think it has something to do with cake.

 

[Unification]

Recall that before the Buddha sat under the Bo tree He was with some anchorites and practised asceticism? And before Jesus went into the wilderness He went to John the Baptist and was baptized? Shepherds sometimes learn from being followers...

Could that be withdrawing oneself from the world, a shift in mind, self discipline and denying indulgance?