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Can you give me a solid proof

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@blü 2

I just wanna be clear, that above... I was defending Hick's position. Not arguing my own.
Yes, you were clear on that point, and I hope I didn't appear to attribute any of Hick's views to you.

I think his point is valid as a view of history ─ for instance, I don't think less of the philosophers of Babylon for concluding that the earth is flat and at the center of everything and that the heavenly bodies go round it ─ you only have to go outside and look around to see that's obvious.

And the role of dreams of the recently deceased in forming ideas of an afterlife might be an even earlier example.

(My apologies here: Your #313 above somehow slipped off my to-do list.)
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member

Nope.

Objective evidence is evidence that we can examine and evaluate for ourselves.

That which we can "examine for ourselves" = that which is independently verifiable by anyone.

Anecdotes and hearsay don't fall under that.

We can examine and evaluate the evidence for the Baha'i Faith for ourselves thus it is objective evidence.
For example, we can examine and evaluate the evidence for Baha'u'llah for ourselves because there are actual facts surrounding the Person, the Life, and the Mission of Baha'u'llah.

That's not an example. That's a repeat of the claim.
Give an actual example of such evidence which is supposedly independently verifiable by anyone.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I certainly can express a belief without making a claim.

You can not, as the thing you express belief in, would be a claim.

"I believe god exists". The claim is "god exists". And you express belief in said claim.
When you just say "god exists", you are essentially saying the same thing... you just ommitted "i believe" as a prefix for it. But it is very much implied. Because otherwise it is kind of weird to say "god exists" when you don't actually believe that.

There is a huge difference.

Nope. See above.


I believe God exists but I do not CLAIM that God exists becaue I cannot prove that God exists.

That makes no sense.

I have no burden of proof unless I am trying to prove something. I am not trying to prove anything.

False. Sounds like you don't understand what the burden of proof is.
It rests on claims... not on the motivation for why you would make said claim or express a belief.

The claim "god exists" has a burden of proof. Regardless of your motivation of wanting to live upto that burden or not.

It has NOTHING to do with how solid the evidence is.

Off course it does..........

How many people are going to doubt that if I let go of my keys, they'll fall to earth instead of shooting into space? The number will be very close to 0.
The reason is because the evidence for gravity is incredibly solid.

How many people are going to believe alien abductions happen? Very little.
The reason is because the evidence is extremely flimsy and actually only consists of hearsay and anecdotes.


Straw man. He said it so I believe it is not evidence by any definition of the word.

It's what your claimed evidence comes down to every time you tried to explain what your evidence is.

The evidence is not MY evidence. The evidence is publicly available for anyone who wants to research it.

And that evidence consists of things this Bahaullah has said.

The claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah are delineated in this post:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

In which you discuss statements made by the dude.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That which we can "examine for ourselves" = that which is independently verifiable by anyone.

Anecdotes and hearsay don't fall under that.
The evidence for Baha'u'llah is not anecdotes or hearsay.
The evidence for Baha'u'llah is independently verifiable by anyone since we can read about it and examine and evaluate it for ourselves.

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
That's not an example. That's a repeat of the claim.
Give an actual example of such evidence which is supposedly independently verifiable by anyone.
It is not a claim at all.
Evidence for Baha'u'llah that support His claims of being a Messenger of God can be independently verifiable by anyone.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claims. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following:
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission in books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

Baha’u’llah did not consider the Bible prophecies or the predictions that He made that came to pass to be evidence that establishes the truth of His claims, but they are evidence to some people.

Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies that refer to the return of Christ and the promised Messiah. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

Baha'u'llah also predicted many events that later came to pass. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You can not, as the thing you express belief in, would be a claim.

"I believe god exists". The claim is "god exists". And you express belief in said claim.
When you just say "god exists", you are essentially saying the same thing... you just ommitted "i believe" as a prefix for it. But it is very much implied. Because otherwise it is kind of weird to say "god exists" when you don't actually believe that.
No, a belief is not a claim unless I am asserting that God exists. I am not asserting that God exists just because I believe that God exists. Nobody can PROVE that God exists, including me, so I do not CLAIM that God exists.
That makes no sense.
I believe God exists but I do not CLAIM that God exists because I cannot prove that God exists.
I do not claim something is true that I cannot prove. Why doesn't that make sense?
False. Sounds like you don't understand what the burden of proof is.
It rests on claims... not on the motivation for why you would make said claim or express a belief.

The claim "god exists" has a burden of proof. Regardless of your motivation of wanting to live up to that burden or not.
I am not claiming that God exists. I would never make such a claim since I could never prove that God exists -- nobody can.
And that evidence consists of things this Bahaullah has said.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Baha'u'llah made claims in His Writings because otherwise we would not know what He was claiming..
However, a claim is not evidence of anything.
The evidence is what backs up the claim.
In which you discuss statements made by the dude.
Of course He made statements. How else could we ever know what He was claiming?
It is who He was as a person and what He did on His mission, including the scriptures that He wrote, that backs up His claims.

If a presidential candidate claims to be the best man for the Job it is who he is as a person and what he has done in his political career that backs up his claim to be the best man for the job.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
I believe God exists but I do not CLAIM that God exists because I cannot prove that God exists.

You are fine claiming God exists. The burden of proof is not on you. Similarly, you can also claim that Confucius existed simply because the books said so.

It is so because humans exclusively rely on human testimonies to get to truth. So as long as you consider the testimonies are valid, you can claim so. The burden of proof belongs to those writing the books, but they are long dead.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You are fine claiming God exists. The burden of proof is not on you. Similarly, you can also claim that Confucius existed simply because the books said so.

It is so because humans exclusively rely on human testimonies to get to truth. So as long as you consider the testimonies are valid, you can claim so. The burden of proof belongs to those writing the books, but they are long dead.
Yes, I could claim that God exists if wanted to, but I am not making that claim.

Atheists are not going to tell me I am making that claim just so they can say I have the burden of proof.

The burden of proof belongs to those who made the claim that God exists, those who wrote the scriptures.
I have no burden of proof because I did not make any claims. It is as simple as that.
 
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