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can you proove there isn't a deity?

1robin

Christian/Baptist
The same way we would settle it if I said X was a triangle and you said it was not: we'd open some sources on logic, and we would find that all of them say the same thing- validity is when the conclusion of an argument follows from its premises.


Only "valid" in a different sense of the word "valid".


It isn't a criteria for truth. Validity and truth are related, but not the same. But if you understand this simple point I'm making- about validity being a necessary but not sufficient condition for a sound deductive argument (and a good deductive argument being one that is sound, or at least probably sound) then so much of what you've said is irrelevant. More likely you just want your cake and to eat it too.


Most of this is not relevant- what you think people say or think about the cosmological argument has no bearing on whether it is valid, sound, or compelling. It is none of these, because of the simple fact that its premises could be true, and the conclusion false.


Any in which deductive inference is involved.


This is called "throwing a whole bunch of ***** at the wall and hoping some will stick". Good gravy, what on earth is going on here? Talk about all over the place and confused... Fortunately, none of this is really relevant at all, so we'll just move along.


"Reasonable" is very vague. The cosmological argument is not valid- that is, even if its premises were true, the conclusion would not follow. It's premises are also neither true nor probably true, but appeal to facts not in evidence/are extremely contentious/are extremely speculative. But since it is not valid to begin with, the truth of the premises is sort of a footnote only, since they could be true and the conclusion would nevertheless not follow.


Of a deductive argument? Validity and true premises (i.e. soundness), and pertinence.


Yeah, its not- or if it is, our common standard for what is reasonable has become a total joke, if it lets invalid arguments somehow count as "reasonable".


Well no, not really- or at least is only "acknowledged as such" by a handful of apologists and theologians. But what people have acknowledged for thousands of years is not relevant to what is the case- that would be an argumentum ad popularum, and we both know you don't give fallacious arguments, so that can't be what you're trying to say, right?


An invalid deductive argument cannot be reasonable, so this objection has no teeth, as we've pointed out several times now.


Actually, not that its relevant, but I seem to recall Plantinga saying that he doesn't think the cosmological argument is sound, which is why he endorses a modal ontological argument for the existence of God and his foundationalist epistemology. Given the latter, Plantinga has no use or need for arguments for the existence of God since for him, belief in God constitutes epistemic bedrock. But this is merely a footnote, and I could be remembering incorrectly.


Yeah, try as you might, validity is a crucial property of ANY good/compelling/reasonable deductive argument. And the cosmological argument is not valid. We could grant the premises, and it would still not follow that God exists/created the universe/was the first cause/etc. This makes it a garbage argument, which is one reason why it is only of scholarly interest in the philosophy of religion- it is a relic of a bygone age, an example of reasoning gone amok that we can learn from. Again, this isn't especially relevant to the question at hand, but it seems to me that Craig is the only contemporary thinker of ANY distinction whatsoever who endorses the cosmological argument, and that's not a good sign since Craig is considered a pariah, in part for that very reason, in most academic circles.

enaidealukal, I am currently completely burned out on semantic discussions. They are so boring. I am not suggesting I will leave you hanging. I just can't need a break from this type of debate. It is mind numbing primarily because it does not get us IMO any closer to truth. It is again like knowing Clinton and OJ were perfectly guilty but spending all out time discussing procedure. If I forget to go back and answer you please remind me, but I am burned out on hyperbolic semantic technicality for the moment.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Nothing wrong with that
How would you know that? It could be perfectly wrong conclusion. Hundreds of millions in the best theoretical position to know would testify to knowing it to be wrong and no evidence exists to overturn the claim. "If" that conclusion doomed a soul to eternal separation form God would you still claim there is nothing wrong with it?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Neither were biblical experts, they were blood sucking lawyers.

That was 150 years, and neither were historians and knew nothing about ancient history.


And if you go back and read what they wrote, it is laughable at best.



With what we know today, I would personally have them disbarred if they tried to retry that ancient debacle you think is credible :facepalm:
They were among the greatest experts on testimony and evidence. That is exactly what the Gospels and history include and how they are evaluated. They were highly trained and highly paid because of their ability to determine reliability from unreliability. You are not.

This is also the last absurdity that includes the arrogant and enormously corrosive to credibility facepalm crap remark I can stomach for the time being. This is pathetic. You cannot disbar anyone, thank God.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
As our ancestors evolved over time they learned what sorts of acts benefited the community and what sorts of acts harmed the community. They learned right from wrong and what was good from what was bad through trial and error. Man does not require religious intervention to be morally good in nature. We just need to learn from our mistakes.
I am very familiar with the evolutionary atheistic narrative. To save time let's assume I know what it is but disagree with it. For example is the adoption of industrialized abortion progress? Is the unjustifiable sexual behavior by 4% of us that produces 60% of the aids cases in the US an example of learning from what benefits society or the tolerating of what gratifies physical lust at any cost? Is the slaughter of 20 million people by Stalin a glorious march into moral superiority? How about Hitler's 50 million? Is it because of our moral progress we now have enough weapons aimed at each other to destroy all life several times over? The only thing man has learned from history is that he does not learn from history. Your progress is another's moral insanity.

Man is not necessarily the most preeminent or successful of creatures. Over the ages we have simply learned how to stay out of the food chain. Sometimes we get caught in a situation where we soon realize that we are still part of that food chain. Sharks are a great example of this, they have been around long before man ever came into the picture.
I have no idea why this is relevant. Environmentally based lethality is not a moral quality. Neither is the equating intellectualism with value. BTW no shark can wipe out the Middle east or shoot a sub with a 300 knot Shkval or mark 47 torpedo form a ship more silent than the ocean.

Those animate forces of nature are the equivalent of that “spirit” you talk about. I simply prefer not to call it God, nor do I believe it is anything “supernatural”. It is the fundamental forces of nature....that which even science knows to exist.
I not think that is even theoretically supportable. For example everything that exists requires an explanation of it's existence. Nature does not contain it's own explanation no matter how it is compartmentalized. Your spiritualism is derivative necessarily from mine.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
What evidence did they bring to the table?
I need some clarity. What evidence did Greenleaf produce? What did they consider? What exists for the Bible's claims? What was their methodology? Do you think them unqualified to make their determinations? Regardless I think you would find their answers more meaningful than mine.

Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf

Wilbur Smith writes of a great legal authority of the last century. He refers to John Singleton Copley, better known as Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863), recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history, the Solicitor-General of the British government in 1819, attorney-general of Great Britain in 1824, three times High Chancellor of England, and elected in 1846, High Steward of the University of Cambridge, thus holding in one lifetime the highest offices which a judge in Great Britain could ever have conferred upon him. When Chancellor Lyndhurst died, a document was found in his desk, among his private papers, giving an extended account of his own Christian faith, and in this precious, previously-unknown record, he wrote: "I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the REsurrection has never broken down yet." "This statement of Lord Lyndhurst was sent to Mr. E. H. Blakeney, of Winchester College, by the late bishop H. C. G. Moule. References to the correspondence appeared in a British periodical, Dawn, some few years ago. I have since had it confirmed in a letter from Mr. Blakeney. In Marty Amoy's The Domestic and Artistic Life of John Copley and Reminiscences of His Son, Lord Lyndhurst, High Chancellor of Great Britain occurs the interesting note - 'A record of Lyndhurst's belief in the truth of religion, and his view of the scheme of redemption, was found in his own handwriting after his death, in the drawer of his writing table.' (Lord Lyndhurst died October 11, 1863, at the age of 91.)"

Much more found here: Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Ch. 10 p. 2
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
I need some clarity. What evidence did Greenleaf produce? What did they consider? What exists for the Bible's claims? What was their methodology? Do you think them unqualified to make their determinations? Regardless I think you would find their answers more meaningful than mine.

Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf

Wilbur Smith writes of a great legal authority of the last century. He refers to John Singleton Copley, better known as Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863), recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history, the Solicitor-General of the British government in 1819, attorney-general of Great Britain in 1824, three times High Chancellor of England, and elected in 1846, High Steward of the University of Cambridge, thus holding in one lifetime the highest offices which a judge in Great Britain could ever have conferred upon him. When Chancellor Lyndhurst died, a document was found in his desk, among his private papers, giving an extended account of his own Christian faith, and in this precious, previously-unknown record, he wrote: "I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the REsurrection has never broken down yet." "This statement of Lord Lyndhurst was sent to Mr. E. H. Blakeney, of Winchester College, by the late bishop H. C. G. Moule. References to the correspondence appeared in a British periodical, Dawn, some few years ago. I have since had it confirmed in a letter from Mr. Blakeney. In Marty Amoy's The Domestic and Artistic Life of John Copley and Reminiscences of His Son, Lord Lyndhurst, High Chancellor of Great Britain occurs the interesting note - 'A record of Lyndhurst's belief in the truth of religion, and his view of the scheme of redemption, was found in his own handwriting after his death, in the drawer of his writing table.' (Lord Lyndhurst died October 11, 1863, at the age of 91.)"

Much more found here: Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Ch. 10 p. 2


Save your words for someone who cares. You are not convincing me.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
enaidealukal, I am currently completely burned out on semantic discussions. They are so boring. I am not suggesting I will leave you hanging. I just can't need a break from this type of debate. It is mind numbing primarily because it does not get us IMO any closer to truth. It is again like knowing Clinton and OJ were perfectly guilty but spending all out time discussing procedure. If I forget to go back and answer you please remind me, but I am burned out on hyperbolic semantic technicality for the moment.

That's fine. However, I would like to point out the irony in the nature of your objection, misplaced though it may be (all this about "semantic technicalities")- given that your buddy Greenleaf does little else in the work you've mentioned, where he begs everyone to suspend critical judgment, common sense, and sound scholarly practice when evaluating the Gospels on the basis of legal technicalities... Very silly, and very ironic.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
"If" that conclusion doomed a soul to eternal separation form God would you still claim there is nothing wrong with it?


Your talking about what I see as imagination.


Souls do not scientifically exist at this point in time.

Gods do not exist scientifically at this point in time.


What I see amounts to almost fact that man has created all deities to date.



Not only that "son of god" was a term given to mortal men just before Jesus was born. It has no real tie to your deity of choice.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Save your words for someone who cares. You are not convincing me.

I could have guessed that up-front. If you have no interest in the truth that would explain your lack of faith but no so much your involvement with debate. If histories greatest scholars do not interest you can carry on that waywardness without me wasting time on you.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
That's fine. However, I would like to point out the irony in the nature of your objection, misplaced though it may be (all this about "semantic technicalities")- given that your buddy Greenleaf does little else in the work you've mentioned, where he begs everyone to suspend critical judgment, common sense, and sound scholarly practice when evaluating the Gospels on the basis of legal technicalities... Very silly, and very ironic.
I can agree with that. Greenleaf does give technical justification for his claims. I however would have debated his technical claims very much at this time. I usually use Greenleaf as sort a litmus test. If someone is completely dismissive of someone of his accomplishments I usually conclude the bias is so extreme debate would be futile. I do at times discuss him in depth but would not have currently as I said I am burned out on the subject. By the way I expected his claims to be legal technicality but they a more of a legal perspective on the historical method. If I have no gone back and responded to you by next weak and you desire I do so please let me know.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Your talking about what I see as imagination.


Souls do not scientifically exist at this point in time.

Gods do not exist scientifically at this point in time.


What I see amounts to almost fact that man has created all deities to date.



Not only that "son of god" was a term given to mortal men just before Jesus was born. It has no real tie to your deity of choice.
Not interested at this time. Maybe I should just use a bunch of sarcasm and emoticons to attempt make nothing into something, as you have done.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
I can agree with that. Greenleaf does give technical justification for his claims.
Many of his arguments come down to curious legal technicalities- which he wants people to prefer over evidence, common sense, and sound scholarly practices from the relevant domain.

If someone is completely dismissive of someone of his accomplishments I usually conclude the bias is so extreme debate would be futile.
Dismissive of his accomplishments? I'm not talking about his accomplishments, but the accuracy of his thesis; and its curious that you would use a partisan from one extreme of the spectrum to test others objectivity. As if being skeptical of Greenleaf, and his highly questionable methods and conclusions, is a sign of bias. :facepalm:
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Interesting. So a couple of documents written by anonymous sources or by people we can't confirm outside of the documents are considered evidence in a legal court? What would stop people from just writing anonymous letters accusing other people and get them convicted?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I forgot you have worn out your welcome at this time, never mind.

You have worn out your opinion, not the truth

Greenleaf is a embarrassment to law.

Testimony of the Evangelists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Packham holds that what Greenleaf submits as eyewitness testimony is technically hearsay and therefore does not comprise direct evidence to demonstrate the resurrection of Jesus. He also holds that the criteria for the "ancient documents rule" is not met by the gospel documents and that the force of Greenleaf's argument is thereby undermined.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Many of his arguments come down to curious legal technicalities-


Not even that, they come down to sevre ignorance from ASSUMING the gospel authors were eyewitnesses without study.


Greenleaf would be a idiot by todays standards who would be disbarred his first day in court.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Not even that, they come down to sevre ignorance from ASSUMING the gospel authors were eyewitnesses without study.
I think he based his reasoning on the traditional beliefs that Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John were the original authors and eyewitnesses. But we know different today. We know that Luke wasn't a disciple. The author of John was most likely not the disciple John. Matthew and Mark are names that were assigned to the Gospels, but we'd have to take that on belief, not facts. Acts are not considered a historical document anymore. Several of the Pauline letters were not written by Paul. And so on.

In court, I highly doubt they would allow anonymous letters to be entered into evidence as primary source, especially since they are written in third person. Eyewitness accounts should be written as "I saw this," not "and they saw this."

Greenleaf would be a idiot by todays standards who would be disbarred his first day in court.
Very possible. I think it depends on judge though. Some of them allow more things than others. The court is the judge's playground.
 
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