Can you prove anything to someone who wants to deny?

[mikkel_the_dane]

Maybe we are both delusional but one side denies it and the other is ignorant of it.

Or maybe an evil demon is deceiving both of them and us too. Replace it with the Matrix or some variant of a Boltzmann Brain universe.
Just for fun there is this related principle about far away suns or rather stars:
The cosmological principle is usually stated formally as 'Viewed on a sufficiently large scale, the properties of the universe are the same for all observers.' This amounts to the strongly philosophical statement that the part of the universe which we can see is a fair sample, and that the same physical laws apply throughout. In essence, this in a sense says that the universe is knowable and is playing fair with scientists.

As a skeptic I have given up on truth. If it appears to work, then that is where it stops

 

[Brickjectivity]

Since you brought up the stone that is carved out of the mountain...

What do mountains represent in the Bible? Yes, governments. This mountain is above the kingdoms of this earth and it brings to ruin the kingdoms of this earth, by the stone carved "not by human hands."

So this mountain would represent God's kingdom government established in the heavens. It is the one referred to in Isaiah when we are told:

"And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah."-Isaiah 2:3.

That kingdom government was what all the servants of old built their faith upon:

"By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God."-Hebrews 11:8-10.

All who put their trust in God's kingdom government, therefore, in Jesus' hands will not be brought to disappointment.

Who are the ones in the last days that are going up to the mountain of the house of Jehovah doing as is foretold, learning war no more, being taught by God? This is done by God's spirit, and there is nothing that can be in opposition to it.

I think we have started log rolling and probably should leave the conversation at least for the moment. I wouldn't want to fall in.

 

[ChristineM]

So, why do you keep arguing to prove something to anyone, who does not want to accept it

Speaking strictly for myself, it's fun, educational and passes the time on long hot afternoons

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Consider the most obvious truth. Should one wants to deny it, he/she can surely do, and there is nothing you can do to make him admit it.
What is the most obvious truth?

It is the bright sun, in the mid noon, in a clear sky!

If you are pointing to the sun in clear sky, telling me: look, the sun is in the sky!

I tell you, no, it is not. I do not see it! You must be imagining! You are wrong! You must be sleeping, seeing the sun in you dream!

I mean, when someone does not want to admit truth. When someone wants to deny it. Surely they can. Anyone can do illogical fallacy, and deny even the most obvious truth, when it is against the desire to accept!

So, why do you keep arguing to prove something to anyone, who does not want to accept it. Do you think you can win, and defeat him? What benefit is in these arguments, other than making yourselves tired?

I would try gravity. "Step off the edge of the building, please, to demonstrate your lack of belief in gravity." If he does, then I will certainly understand that he really didn't believe it. But I won't have to worry about trying to convince him again.

 

[osgart]

If you never open your mouth you will never find anything or anyone to relate to.

Proving is always a possibility. If you have right answers or wrong answers it's best to put them to the test.

If what you say is true it could make a positive difference in someone's life.

It's nice when agreement is found as well.

 

[bobhikes]

Consider the most obvious truth. Should one wants to deny it, he/she can surely do, and there is nothing you can do to make him admit it.
What is the most obvious truth?

It is the bright sun, in the mid noon, in a clear sky!

If you are pointing to the sun in clear sky, telling me: look, the sun is in the sky!

I tell you, no, it is not. I do not see it! You must be imagining! You are wrong! You must be sleeping, seeing the sun in you dream!

I mean, when someone does not want to admit truth. When someone wants to deny it. Surely they can. Anyone can do illogical fallacy, and deny even the most obvious truth, when it is against the desire to accept!

So, why do you keep arguing to prove something to anyone, who does not want to accept it. Do you think you can win, and defeat him? What benefit is in these arguments, other than making yourselves tired?

It is a burden but if you believe you can improve the life of the person and its a person you care about you should and can. My father is about the only one I've ever tried to change and after many years and attempting many different ways to change his thought process, I finally succeeded and he is happier for it. Of course he came upon the decision himself and I had nothing to do with it.

 

[Ponder This]

Consider the most obvious truth. Should one wants to deny it, he/she can surely do, and there is nothing you can do to make him admit it.
What is the most obvious truth?

It is the bright sun, in the mid noon, in a clear sky!

If you are pointing to the sun in clear sky, telling me: look, the sun is in the sky!

I tell you, no, it is not. I do not see it! You must be imagining! You are wrong! You must be sleeping, seeing the sun in you dream!

I mean, when someone does not want to admit truth. When someone wants to deny it. Surely they can. Anyone can do illogical fallacy, and deny even the most obvious truth, when it is against the desire to accept!

So, why do you keep arguing to prove something to anyone, who does not want to accept it. Do you think you can win, and defeat him? What benefit is in these arguments, other than making yourselves tired?

The benefit of debate isn't necessarily to prove oneself "right" or to prove someone else "wrong" even though it would seem to be what people do when they debate.

The benefit is in challenging oneself and in opening one's mind to other ways of thinking.

 

[Vinayaka]

Let's turn the question around. Can anyone prove to me something that I already know to be false?

 

[Polymath257]

No, you cannot prove the sun is in the sky to someone who wants to deny it. They may go as far as solipsism: that everything is an illusion and that everything is simply their experiences. There is no way to prove that position is invalid.

Other options are Descartes Demon, or something like The Matrix, or Boltzmann Brains, or Last Thursdayism, etc. All of these say, in essence, that our senses cannot be trusted to convey the actual state of things. And if someone is willing to resort to any of these, there is nothing you can do to prove them wrong. They are all *internally* consistent.

But that is *precisely* why all of these can be dismissed out of hand as reasonable positions: since there is no way to prove them wrong, even in theory, they are literally useless positions except to be in denial. Instead of mere internal consistency, if we demand our ideas be testable and potentially falsifiable, we leave the solipsistic muck and start actually learning something.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Consider the most obvious truth. Should one wants to deny it, he/she can surely do, and there is nothing you can do to make him admit it.
What is the most obvious truth?

It is the bright sun, in the mid noon, in a clear sky!

If you are pointing to the sun in clear sky, telling me: look, the sun is in the sky!

I tell you, no, it is not. I do not see it! You must be imagining! You are wrong! You must be sleeping, seeing the sun in you dream!

I mean, when someone does not want to admit truth. When someone wants to deny it. Surely they can. Anyone can do illogical fallacy, and deny even the most obvious truth, when it is against the desire to accept!

So, why do you keep arguing to prove something to anyone, who does not want to accept it. Do you think you can win, and defeat him? What benefit is in these arguments, other than making yourselves tired?

Yeah that's why premises and ideologies are so dangerous! Also, when someone is corrected it hurts their brain to admit it, so they often go deeper in the wrong direction.

 

[74x12]

Consider the most obvious truth. Should one wants to deny it, he/she can surely do, and there is nothing you can do to make him admit it.
What is the most obvious truth?

It is the bright sun, in the mid noon, in a clear sky!

If you are pointing to the sun in clear sky, telling me: look, the sun is in the sky!

I tell you, no, it is not. I do not see it! You must be imagining! You are wrong! You must be sleeping, seeing the sun in you dream!

I mean, when someone does not want to admit truth. When someone wants to deny it. Surely they can. Anyone can do illogical fallacy, and deny even the most obvious truth, when it is against the desire to accept!

So, why do you keep arguing to prove something to anyone, who does not want to accept it. Do you think you can win, and defeat him? What benefit is in these arguments, other than making yourselves tired?

If they're stubborn enough they'll find a way out of your argument.

 

[LightofTruth]

Consider the most obvious truth. Should one wants to deny it, he/she can surely do, and there is nothing you can do to make him admit it.
What is the most obvious truth?

It is the bright sun, in the mid noon, in a clear sky!

If you are pointing to the sun in clear sky, telling me: look, the sun is in the sky!

I tell you, no, it is not. I do not see it! You must be imagining! You are wrong! You must be sleeping, seeing the sun in you dream!

I mean, when someone does not want to admit truth. When someone wants to deny it. Surely they can. Anyone can do illogical fallacy, and deny even the most obvious truth, when it is against the desire to accept!

So, why do you keep arguing to prove something to anyone, who does not want to accept it. Do you think you can win, and defeat him? What benefit is in these arguments, other than making yourselves tired?

That's especially true when it comes to discussions with Christians.

There are many Christians and Christian groups who claim that the knowledge they have of Christian doctrines was given to them through supernatural assistance. How can you argue with that?

I mean, if a person thinks that he knows something to be true because he believes he has supernatural assistance from God then you stand little chance if any in trying to convince that person to believe otherwise.

I've had many discussions with people who claim to know a certain truth because, as they say, it has been given to them by God. The RCC makes this claim for themselves. As do other sects. In other words, they are the only group who can correctly interpret Scripture because they have been given the supernatural assistance to do so.

What's so funny about that is that I've had discussions with people who make the same claim as the RCC but teach entirely different ideas when it comes to doctrines.

So, we have all these Christians out there believing contradictory ideas and who all claim to believe what they do by being given supernatural assistance.

 

[LightofTruth]

How bout this one. I was having a discussion with a Christian on the doctrine of the Trinity. I explained to the person why I thought the doctrine to be absurd. The person replied by telling me that I don't believe the Trinity because of have a carnal mind and what I needed was a spiritual mind like they had.

So, for them, it really doesn't matter if something is unreasonable or absurd.

That's why I don't belong to any Christian sects.

 

[Pipiripi]

To see if a person is wrong, is difficult only one person can proof the other is wrong. If you can see in the Bible always was the FEW who have the truth. And still today.
Who was right:
Elijah or the prophet of Baal?
Daniel 3 friends or the majority?
Daniel or the one who sent him in the lions dawn.
Noah or the people.
Jesus or the others.
So my friend only if you can prove BIBLICAL that you are right, and if the person are open he/she can accept it.

 

[MNoBody]

Let's turn the question around. Can anyone prove to me something that I already know to be false?

not without first discerning if you are consensually correct, as far as some recognizable metric,
to the one so tasked....if you are indeed incorrect , according to that known data set,
then a convincing demonstration of proof is in order, if it is deemed worth the bother to do so.

on job-sites this type of problem would come up with clients as bright as potatoes,
and would require some proof to convince them they were....misinformed
and this way was much better, as they could see,
after the evidence or proof of whatever kind was provided......
couldn't expect them to accept trademans common sense
after they and their friends had watched some DIY home-show and figured they had it pegged,
such instant experts....good grief.

 

[Heyo]

Let's turn the question around. Can anyone prove to me something that I already know to be false?

Probably. Humans make errors, in perception, in reasoning, in memory. I guess there are things you sincerely believe to be false (and not only you) that may turn out to be true.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I mean, when someone does not want to admit truth. When someone wants to deny it.

Foolish and funny. How can you prove anything if all that you have are books written by the same person who is claiming to be Allah and explanations by his son and great-grandson?

 

[Vinayaka]

not without first discerning if you are consensually correct, as far as some recognizable metric,
to the one so tasked....if you are indeed incorrect , according to that known data set,
then a convincing demonstration of proof is in order, if it is deemed worth the bother to do so.

on job-sites this type of problem would come up with clients as bright as potatoes,
and would require some proof to convince them they were....misinformed
and this way was much better, as they could see,
after the evidence or proof of whatever kind was provided......
couldn't expect them to accept trademans common sense
after they and their friends had watched some DIY home-show and figured they had it pegged,
such instant experts....good grief.

True. I was just pointing out how it goes both directions. Some folks like to lament how others can't be shown anything, yet they themselves are in the same boat. I'm currently facing the challenge you mention, although I'm not employed. When that same potato mind asks for your opinion, what they really want is your approval.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, why do you keep arguing to prove something to anyone, who does not want to accept it. Do you think you can win, and defeat him? What benefit is in these arguments, other than making yourselves tired?

Public debate is generally about trying to convince the audience, not your opponent.

I also find debating with someone who disagrees with me to be useful in improving my own ideas. Like all of us, I can sometimes fall into the trap of not questioning my own beliefs enough. If I argue those beliefs to someone who disagrees with me, they're likely to point out every hole they see in them. This gives me the chance to consider those objections and either respond to them or recognize flaws in my beliefs that I ought to correct.

 

[Aupmanyav]

With most people from Abrahamic religions, this does not work. One hole or a thousand holes, small holes or big holes, nothing matters. They still go on.