Can you support our troop but not support the war?

[spacemonkey]

Did you ever consider that morale might be low for a war that is publicly unpopular because the soldiers feel the same way. Does it not make sense that the sldiers themselves can come to the same conclusions as everyone else. I was in the service, and involved with "combat actions", and I can honestly say that I was able to make my own conclussions without being influenced by public sentament.

 

[usnavy_matt]

This is obviosly the response of someone who has not been in the service. Anyone who has been in knows that, even in peace time, being in the military is far from an "easy ride financally". This is perhabs the most uneducated response I've read on this site. While deployed, a sailor on an aircraft carrier (like I was) works 84 hours a week for 6 months straight, usually for less then $2000 a month. If that is an easy financial ride I sure would hate to see a hard one.

I definitely agree with this, spacemonkey.

Wizenheimer69, one of the reasons I joined the Navy was for college money and benefits, yes. But, if you were in the military you would know that I will never have the time to go to college. Like spacemonkey said, the hours are a killer. And it definitely isn't an "easy ride financially." I have to pay for the benefits I am getting.

Another thing. I was just sitting here thinking that sometimes it is such a shame to live in a country where there are so many ungrateful people. I myself have done nothing yet in my military career. But my grandfather was in Korea, I have family members that were in World War II. There are so many things we enjoy nowadays that we would never have had the chance if our ancestors and fellow americans hadn't have done what they did. But then there are others who are so willing to show their thanks and are so happy and thankful for what they enjoy.

Don't tell me you can't support the troops b/c you don't support the war. If you think that way then that is a closeminded, shallow way of thinking. Be thankful everyday for what you enjoy. And if you can't even do that, then why are you still here if you dislike things so much? You may say that that itself is a redneck, closeminded statement. But it is the truth. Just remember that your ancestors and mine are why you can get on here and gripe about how this country is so wrong. Yes there are a million things wrong in this world. There always will be, until, by my views, the coming of the Lord. So just remember this question, yes you have the freedom to complain about anything you want, but do you truly think you have the RIGHT to complain if you are willing to do nothing about it?

Another reason I joined the military is because I wanted to change things. And to me, it was a start.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I have a lot more evidence to point to my conclusions than you have for any of yours. At least I have some sort of personal experience and personal relationships with others to draw from.

Did you know that I was a war orphan? My dad finally succumbed to shrapnel he got in the Korean war. Now the Korean "war" was not that big of a deal for Joe America, but it sure was for GI Joe. I was a mere seven years old when my dad made me promise to never, ever go to war. I remember his urgency and forcefulness quite vividly. This Marine Pilot taught me at a young age to deplore the violence that is war and to revere life. Korea was his second war, and he refused to fly combat this time, so they let him fly med-evac instead. BTW, he died when I was nine, 11 years after he left the "conflict".

I have seen first hand what war has done to our vets. I have held their hand as they told me how horrible it was that we should NEVER have been in 'Nam. I even buried buddies and family. You can deride them, and call them names too. But, they had the guts to stand up to people just like yourself and tell you that you are wrong. I admire them for that.

So you call me a hypocrite because I have asked for evidence that you either don't have or refuse to give. Instead of providing proof you stoop to slandering those who dare question you, just like McCarthy. Call me un-American, I simply don't care. You say that you have relationships, well... SO DO I. However YOU have made a claim of "fact": I have not. Your inability to substantiate your "fact" is the most powerful piece of evidence produced to date. I would suggest that you either produce the "studies" about how stupid our troops are for falling for the "liberal media", or give it a rest. Personally, I think our troops are a good deal smarter than you make them out to be. They don't buy your crap either.

So go ahead and slander me some more. Darkdale will give a willing hand to the deed. You say you stand for freedom: but apparently only when it agrees with you. Me? I think it's sickening that ANYONE who claims to be a Christian would support this war. That would be MY definition of hypocrisy, but your mileage may vary.

 

[BUDDY]

So you call me a hypocrite because I have asked for evidence that you either don't have or refuse to give. Instead of providing proof you stoop to slandering those who dare question you, just like McCarthy. Call me un-American, I simply don't care. You say that you have relationships, well... SO DO I. However YOU have made a claim of "fact": I have not. Your inability to substantiate your "fact" is the most powerful piece of evidence produced to date. I would suggest that you either produce the "studies" about how stupid our troops are for falling for the "liberal media", or give it a rest. Personally, I think our troops are a good deal smarter than you make them out to be. They don't buy your crap either.

I never said they are stupid, ignorant or anything else, so please don't twist the truth or put words in my mouth. I said that they are effected by the brash, loud, incecent anti-war propaganda that promulgates itself into the mainstream, even though it is not. MY perception is my reality, that is all I have ever offered as fact and I stick to it. Your hatred of my reality shows the true nature of your liberalism, and how you scream for acceptance of differing views out of one side of your mouth, and yet blast me for having my own out of the other side of your mouth. That is what makes you a hypocrite. I have one view and one only...anti-war propaganda has a negative effect on troop morale. I believe this with all of my heart because of personal experience, and the witnessed experience of others. That makes it fact to me, so you can either choose to believe it or not, I really could careless. But to call me a liar, a fool, or unlearned because I have a view is ignorant of what debate is intented to do.

So go ahead and slander me some more. Darkdale will give a willing hand to the deed. You say you stand for freedom: but apparently only when it agrees with you. Me? I think it's sickening that ANYONE who claims to be a Christian would support this war. That would be MY definition of hypocrisy, but your mileage may vary.

Save the Drama for your Mama and stop falling on your sword because you can't handle views other than your own. I stated my opinion and it was you who started in with the attacks. And how dare you judge me. Check you bible and get back to me on that topic. I support the ending of those fascist jihadists who cut off heads, kill infants and children intentionally, hang dead bodies on bridges and burn them, drive car bombs into city markets, fly airplanes into buildings and mutilate the innocent in the name of their god and for the hatred of their agenda. If wanting to put a stop to that is anti-christian, then you have a pretty perverted view of christianity my friend.

 

[BUDDY]

Then please provide the case studies on this. Somehow, I believe you have overstated your case... again.

I guess this means you have NOTHING to back up your claim but your feelings. Sorta what Shrub used to invade Iraq with. Well excuse me if I find your "feelings" a bit lacking on the "fact" scale.

As back up for previous post. So who started this whole thing again NetDoc? I'm looking at the above and......yeah, I think you do.

 

[robtex]

MOD POST:

Please lets keep things civil on here. This is a very delicate topic and if you feel you are getting heated do me (and yourself) a big favor and stay off the thread for a bit and read something that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. For me I like to log in here:
http://pbskids.org/teletubbies/teletubbyland.html

and pretend I am the red teletubbie. Tell you what why don't you log in and be the purple one? See fun isn't it? Come with me to teletubbie land for a spell and than come back on here when you feel happy and bubbly inside like me!!

 

[Scuba Pete]

I guess what it really boils down to is this:

There are many of us, who can fully support our soldiers and not support this turgid war. Soldiers are doing the absolute best they can in a war they did not create and with which many disagree.

However, there are a few war mongers who are bent on prosecuting this war and slandering those who do not agree with their war mongering ways. They get upset when their over the top views come into question and instead of providing ANY proof, they just keep spinning away trying to make black look white and visa versa. Me? I find them kinda funny in a slapstick kinda way. Sucks to be them!

 

[Feathers in Hair]

MOD POST:

http://pbskids.org/teletubbies/teletubbyland.html

and pretend I am the red teletubbie. Tell you what why don't you log in and be the purple one? See fun isn't it? Come with me to teletubbie land for a spell and than come back on here when you feel happy and bubbly inside like me!!

Oooo! And I want to be the yellow one! (The brick wall is a lot of fun! If you click it very fast, you can make all sorts of teletubbies come out!)

And do not forget to visit the bunny rabbits! They'll get lonely, if you don't!

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Any war ever fought is going to cause a rift in the citizens of the U.S. Especially any war not fought on U.S. soil. I hope that if a foreign nation was ever silly enough to invade Florida, Texas, California, etc. . . that the pacivists would finally come around to the notion that there can be a legitimate reason to fight a war.

At the same time, if the U.S. begins to prosecute wars in an effort to force Christianity on another nation, for example, then I would hope the most ardent of warmongers would come to the conclusion that there are times when it is not OK to prosecute a war.

In reality most conflicts which the U.S. engages in will fall somewhere in between. The powers that be will continue to send young men to fight and die for what they percieve to be American interests. People that fight, as well as people back home will differ in their opinions of whether the American interests at stake in a particular conflict are worth the toll or not. Such is the nature of life.

Ithink intelligent people can reasonably differ on whether the war in Iraq is of sufficient American interest to be worth the price we have paid in lives and resources. Everyone recognizes that the information regarding large scale WMD's held by Saddam was either innaccurate, or that Saddam secreted these weapons to neighboring countries. It could be a bit of both. What is ignored by the anti-war crowd tho, is the fact that all people in power beleived the intelligence which later turned out to be faulty.

Relying on faulty intelligence is not the same as lying, or making up a reason to go to war. Passing along false information you beleive to be true, is not a lie, it is a legitimate mistake, and one which Bush made. . . along with Clinton, Blair and a host of other people in positions of power.

The major question of the hour is, can you support the troops without supporting the war. I would ask, how are you going about doing either? I "support the troops" in the sense that I admire thier courage, and wish them all the best, but I am not signing up to help carry the load, nor am I sending care packages to random soldiers overseas.

I "support the war" in the sense that, since we are there, we need to finish the job, help the Iraqi's set up a freely elected constitutional republic, then come home. But once again, I am not supporting the war by enlisting.

I wonder in what ways a person would actively be supporting the troops without supporting the war. Send candy bars to a Marine, then go and carry a picket sign saying "No war for oil" ? ? ? I strongly doubt there are many of us truly supporting either the troops or the war. I pay my taxes, and support both in that respect, but I do not do so voluntarily. My taxes are taken out of my check and nobody asks me for permission.

So my question for those who claim you can support the soldiers without supporting the war is this: What are you actively doing to support the soldiers? And what are you doing to actively not support the war?

B.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Actually,

I spent five and a half hours yesterday helping to stuff packages for GIs over there. I did attend an anti-war protest early this year, or late last year. Diving and Boy Scouts have kinda preoccupied my life this year!

 

[painted wolf]

My brother is a vet (gulf war I ) my father is a vet (korea) my grandfather was a vet.... and so on...

I support them, and I support our current troops.

I never agreed with this war, I thought it was short sighted then, and I still think it was disasterously ill conceved. This war was/is IMHO a publicity stunt, one that for many reasons has gone terribly awry. Before you talk of "my elected representitives" I will say that none of the men who represent my state or the nation were voted in by me... I voted against the lot of them. But thats life in a domacracy... fortunatly a democracy lets me rail aginst the men I did or didn't vote for and thier use of power.

However I will continue to support the troops who, thanks to their choice of career are caught in the mess made by our politicians. (I won't go into why people choose to join the millitary, there are too many reasons to make broad statements about it)
Our troops need to given the best we can give them, in terms of equipment, intelligence and international image. Empty flag-waving is an anathma to me, I dispize hollow "patriotism" that is spawned by disengenous politicizing.
We need to protect our troops by recovering thier tarnished honor... we need to show the world that we are better than the guys we are fighting against. Political decisions lead to the loss of respect in the eyes of the world... our troops are caught in the mess that those in power made.
Our administration is still pushing for the "right" to torture prisoners!!!
This only puts our troops in more danger... it makes us just as bad as the enemy, if not worse because we are supposed to be held to higher standards!
How can we expect anyone to respect our troops if we allow this horror to become 'accepted practice'? How can we keep them safe if they have no respect?

we can't. The best way to keep our troops safe is not by smiling and waving a flag, but by speaking out about the policies that put them in danger in the first place.
When they became 'torturers' like the rest they became no better than the rest in the eyes of the people we sent them to help. When that happined we lost our troops safety... those that allowed, and even encouraged this need to be punnished. Our troops will never be safe untill there is real action taken against whoever it was that let this happin.

wa:do

 

[BUDDY]

I guess what it really boils down to is this:

There are many of us, who can fully support our soldiers and not support this turgid war. Soldiers are doing the absolute best they can in a war they did not create and with which many disagree.

And I can whole heartedly respect your opposition to the war and your support for the troops. I simply disagree that public protest has no effect on troop morale, that's all. I have no problem with dissent and public debate over policy. Heck, our country was founded by a bunch of people who were labeled as a public nusense because of their dissent. But I do believe that this is a just cause, and I do believe that a public outcry against the war, the president, etc., especially the way it is being done in this instance, has a negative effect.

However, there are a few war mongers who are bent on prosecuting this war and slandering those who do not agree with their war mongering ways. They get upset when their over the top views come into question and instead of providing ANY proof, they just keep spinning away trying to make black look white and visa versa. Me? I find them kinda funny in a slapstick kinda way. Sucks to be them!

Well, I thought you had been arguing your point very well up to this, which is a pretty low blow and rather beneath you. I am guilty of the same in some instances so lets just call it even and move on. I do not mean to slander you or anyone else who is against this war. You have that right and I respect those that can make an argument. Like I said, it is when that argument moves into the realm of public outcry and hatred, which puts troop morale at risk, that I have a problem, but never, ever to the point of being slanderous. I don't have to be, the evidence for why we went to war is enough to not have to use slander, but I will save that for another thread. Good luck ND, hope you get what you want. And in the name of slapstick, I will now get up from my desk, trip over the dog, get up, slide backwords on a banana peel, bang my head against the refrigerator, all in an attempt to go watch Fox News. Later

 

[robtex]

I simply disagree that public protest has no effect on troop morale, that's all.

EEwred forgive my ignornace but I have never been in a war protest before and am curious how does it affect moral? From what I read it seem the protesters are protesting policy not GI effort. What is it you see happening in many or most protests?

 

[spacemonkey]

Yes eewred, I have to ask you if again if it is not possible for morale to be low for a publicly unpopular because the soldiers themselves disapprove of the war?

 

[BUDDY]

EEwred forgive my ignornace but I have never been in a war protest before and am curious how does it affect moral? From what I read it seem the protesters are protesting policy not GI effort. What is it you see happening in many or most protests?

Because they see it in the news. When they see things such as this,
http://www.mccullagh.org/image/d30-30/anti-war-protest-2.html
http://www.staticfiends.com/suburbia/download.php?id=72&sid=5053b81b99717848fef040fa180e466b
do you really think it helps them to concentrate on completing their mission? After all, they aren't saying that Bush literally kills children, they are saying that Bush sends soldiers to kill children. Let's call it what it is for once. When you are saying that Bush is a murderer for what is happening in Iraq, you are basically saying that the troops are the murderers, and Bush is the one who send them to do the murdering. I don't understand how anyone can deny that. So, in protesting in this way, you are basically saying that the troops are murderers and baby killers. Hello 1970.

 

[Darkdale]

There is the common sense Left at work.

 

[michel]

EEwred forgive my ignornace but I have never been in a war protest before and am curious how does it affect moral? From what I read it seem the protesters are protesting policy not GI effort. What is it you see happening in many or most protests?

I agree completely. War protest would only serve to give justification in the minds of G.I's of the validity of their own doubts about the morality of what they are doing.

 

[Buttons*]

If ur a parent, can u support ur child who is on drugs without supporting his drug use? think about it that way, we can support people and not what they do, but u should solidify that what they believe is the right thing to do is for them, u dont necissarily have to believe the way they do... (hence the MANY variations of religion)

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

I agree completely. War protest would only serve to give justification in the minds of G.I's of the validity of their own doubts about the morality of what they are doing.

But what if the G.I.'s are doing the right thing, and then these hippies come out and start whining like little children, about how evil and immoral they and the entire war is. Of course it will bring down morale.

 

[AtheistAJ]

But what if the G.I.'s are doing the right thing, and then these hippies come out and start whining like little children, about how evil and immoral they and the entire war is. Of course it will bring down morale.

Hippies hate pretty much everyone except whales and trees, you just can't be a peace-lover killing lumberjacks (blunt so what), but neither I or Cindy Sheehan are hippies and our kind support the troops by not supporting the war. Withdrawal would also result in a ceasefire of the anti-invasion insurgency. Although I do think we should bomb Iran's nuclear facilities, or have NATO do it. It took pres. Bush over 1.5 years to get Saddam, while Clinton got Milosevic after about two months of strategic NATO led military site bombings. We should administrate the same action there with no further casualties. The US and ally troops went to Iraq to get rid of invisible WMDs, and this new excuse that we're bringing peace is anything but, seeing as how many people of both sides die each week.