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Canada now rewards terrorists

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Apparently, Khadr got the money this past Wednesday:

$10.5M payout to Omar Khadr was made Wednesday, government confirms

It's being alleged that the government got the payment out now to make sure it was done before a hearing involving claims against Khadr. If so, I have problems with the government taking extraordinary steps to make this happen:
The Canadian Press reported late Thursday that a source familiar with the situation had said the Liberal government wanted to get ahead of an attempt by two Americans to enforce a massive U.S. court award against Khadr in Canadian court.

Word of the quiet money transfer came on the eve of a hearing in which a lawyer planned to ask the Ontario Superior Court to block the payout to Khadr, who currently lives in Edmonton on bail.

Toronto lawyer David Winer is acting for the widow of a U.S. special forces soldier, Chris Speer, who Khadr is alleged to have killed after a firefight in Afghanistan in July 2002, and another U.S. soldier, Layne Morris, who was blinded in one eye in the battle.

Tabitha Speer and Morris won a $134-million dollar US default judgment against Khadr in a Utah court two years ago, but legal experts have said getting any money Khadr might receive in order to satisfy the Utah judgment would be extremely unlikely to succeed.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
The issue isn't about the American soldiers' treatment of Khadr during battle; the issue is how he was treated after he was captured.

Nobody's disputing that child soldiers can be dangerous; the question is what we should do with them once they're apprehended.
First we don't apprehend combatants, criminals are apprehended, combatants are captured ..(I know semantics)
Well to start with it is better to interrogate prisoners; however front line troops usually don't know anything; however there is always the possibility they do know something. It is a better policy to capture and interrogate leaders than to kill them (something the Obama didn't realize I guess). But if there is any possibility of gleaning intelligence from any prisoner then they should be interrogated as long as in is within (in the US case) procedures set down in the Army Field Manual 34-52
 
How much do you think is an appropriate amount for being held without trial and regularly tortured for a decade? Keep in mind he was a minor for the first 3 years of that.

For a jihadi who was involved in killing an innocent person?

$0 and a revocation of citizenship.

People who don't believe in affording rights to other people should not benefit from these right themselves.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
First we don't apprehend combatants, criminals are apprehended, combatants are captured ..(I know semantics)
Not as well as you think, apparently.

apprehend
[...]
to take into custody
the definition of apprehend

:rolleyes:


Well to start with it is better to interrogate prisoners; however front line troops usually don't know anything; however there is always the possibility they do know something. It is a better policy to capture and interrogate leaders than to kill them (something the Obama didn't realize I guess). But if there is any possibility of gleaning intelligence from any prisoner then they should be interrogated as long as in is within (in the US case) procedures set down in the Army Field Manual 34-52
I think you missed my point.

Once a child soldier is captured, regardless of how much of a threat he was during the fighting, he's neither a typical prisoner if war nor a criminal. He may still be dangerous and need special care because of this, but he's someone to be helped and rehabilitated, not punished.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
For a jihadi who was involved in killing an innocent person?

$0 and a revocation of citizenship.

People who don't believe in affording rights to other people should not benefit from these right themselves.
So treat a child who had been indoctrinated since birth as an adult making a free, informed choice?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think this deserves its own reply:

People who don't believe in affording rights to other people should not benefit from these right themselves.

If you really believe this, then you understand: because we want to enjoy our rights ourselves, we afford them to others... including Omar Khadr. And when we deny them to Omar Khadr, we lose our claim to them for ourselves.

Human rights cease to be human rights if they aren't extended to everyone equally. The reason that Omar Khadr is entitled to be free from torture and imprisonment without trial isn't because he's earned these rights; he's entitled to be free from these things because he's a human being.

Treating human rights as a prize that can be taken away for misbehavior is harmful and dangerous for everyone.

... and all this would still be the case if he had been convicted in a fair trial, but he wasn't. Khadr's "conviction" was in a military tribunal, based on a confession obtained by torture and deception, in a proceeding where he wasn't allowed to call witnesses on his own behalf. Hold your own opinions about whether he did what he is accused of, but at this point, "accused" is all he is. He has never been properly convicted of any crime.
 
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esmith

Veteran Member
I think this deserves its own reply:



If you really believe this, then you understand: because we want to enjoy our rights ourselves, we afford them to others... including Omar Khadr. And when we deny them to Omar Khadr, we lose our claim to them for ourselves.

Human rights cease to be human rights if they aren't extended to everyone equally. The reason that Omar Khadr is entitled to be free from torture and imprisonment without trial isn't because he's earned these rights; he's entitled to be free from these things because he's a human being.

Treating human rights as a prize that can be taken away for misbehavior is harmful and dangerous for everyone.

... and all this would still be the case if he had been convicted in a fair trial, but he wasn't. Khadr's "conviction" was in a military tribunal, based on a confession obtained by torture and deception, in a proceeding where he wasn't allowed to call witnesses on his own behalf. Hold your own opinions about whether he did what he is accused of, but at this point, "accused" is all he is. He has never been properly convicted of any crime.
spoken like a true liberal/progressive pacifist:)
 

esmith

Veteran Member
I'm no pacifist. And don't the conservatives you know believe in duty and honour?
what does that have to do with interrogating a prisoner of war? He was a prisoner of war (even though war was not declared). What else would you call the enemy combatant that is captured on the field of battle. He made the decision to fight, what happens after he was captured he has to accept as long as he is treated in accordance with the rules of war.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
what does that have to do with interrogating a prisoner of war?
Not much. That's your tangent; I didn't follow you down that rabbit hole.


He was a prisoner of war (even though war was not declared). What else would you call the enemy combatant that is captured on the field of battle.
The American government disagrees with you. That's why he was held at GITMO. Their position is that he wasn't a prisoner of war.

Prisoners of war are entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions. They get to be housed in similar conditions to the troops of the armed forces that are holding them and they get to go home at the cessation of hostilities.

He made the decision to fight,
His father made the decision that he should fight.

what happens after he was captured he has to accept as long as he is treated in accordance with the rules of war.
Which didn't happen, and which I say should have happened. The United States armed forces were bound by duty and honour to treat Khadr with a certain standard of care. They breached this duty.

When I pointed out that they shouldn't have done this, you said I sounded like a pacifist and a liberal. This is why I asked my question. All I suggested was that tge United States do its duty. Do the conservatives and non-pacifists you know not believe in duty? Is that why this suggestion sounded liberal and pacifist to you?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
you're not allowed to torture Prisoners of War, its called the Geneva convention.
 
So treat a child who had been indoctrinated since birth as an adult making a free, informed choice?

If you compensate all of these jihadis who have been put in similar situations then you will end up funding terrorism and bigotry because they haven't all magically been reformed into Secular Humanists.

Not my idea of a good way to spend tax $$$. If such money was used in this way, would you still consider it ethical to pay compensation?

The government can learn from its experience and acknowledge what it did that was wrong and take steps to prevent it from happening in the future, but the greater good is not served by giving millions to assorted violent extremists who have been involved in the murder of civilians.

If officials have broken the law then they can even be prosecuted.

Accountability doesn't simply mean paying millions to jihadis.


Human rights cease to be human rights if they aren't extended to everyone equally. The reason that Omar Khadr is entitled to be free from torture and imprisonment without trial isn't because he's earned them; he's entitled to be free from these things because he's a human being.

If you have to, award him damages and transfer them to his victims' families instead seeing as they permanently lost their rights.

Treating human rights as a prize that can be taken away for misbehavior is harmful and dangerous for everyone.

It's not for simple 'misbehaviour' it is for being involved in violent attempts to revoke the rights of others.

I agree with Popper "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."


... and all this would still be the case if he had been convicted in a fair trial, but he wasn't. Khadr's "conviction" was in a military tribunal, based on a confession obtained by torture and deception, in a proceeding where he wasn't allowed to call witnesses on his own behalf. Hold your own opinions about whether he did what he is accused of, but at this point, "accused" is all he is. He has never been properly convicted of any crime.

The nature of the conflict makes it very problematic to have a 'fair' civilian style trial anywhere though, it's not like he can just call up a few Jihadis and get them to pop over to Canada or they can send a police forensics team to gather evidence at the site.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
If you compensate all of these jihadis who have been put in similar situations then you will end up funding terrorism and bigotry because they haven't all magically been reformed into Secular Humanists.

Not my idea of a good way to spend tax $$$. If such money was used in this way, would you still consider it ethical to pay compensation?

The government can learn from its experience and acknowledge what it did that was wrong and take steps to prevent it from happening in the future, but the greater good is not served by giving millions to assorted violent extremists who have been involved in the murder of civilians.

If officials have broken the law then they can even be prosecuted.

Accountability doesn't simply mean paying millions to jihadis.




If you have to, award him damages and transfer them to his victims' families instead seeing as they permanently lost their rights.



It's not for simple 'misbehaviour' it is for being involved in violent attempts to revoke the rights of others.

I agree with Popper "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."




The nature of the conflict makes it very problematic to have a 'fair' civilian style trial anywhere though, it's not like he can just call up a few Jihadis and get them to pop over to Canada or they can send a police forensics team to gather evidence at the site.
How are you defining "jihadi"?

Also, what rights did the victim's family lose?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
spoken like a true liberal/progressive pacifist:)
Not really, @esmith

What may well be baffling to our American friends is that @9-10ths_Penguin is simply and effectively elucidating the thoughts of most Canadians. Even this grizzled hawkish conservative. It's just the way we roll up here.

As I said earlier in this thread, part of me would like to see Khadr slowly rot in a prison for the rest of his life, BUT... and it's a really big but, his rights were violated by your government and my own government went along with it. No court, in the civilized world, will accept a confession gained through torture. As much as it makes me choke, Khadr IS entitled to a rather large settlement. And, no, I don't buy into the idea that he was indoctrinated from early childhood. I see him as a willing participant, but he still has rights.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
If you compensate all of these jihadis who have been put in similar situations then you will end up funding terrorism and bigotry because they haven't all magically been reformed into Secular Humanists.

Not my idea of a good way to spend tax $$$. If such money was used in this way, would you still consider it ethical to pay compensation?
Frankly, my higher priority is the criminal prosecution of the people involved in the illegal detentions.

Civil courts have methods for determining damages; whether it's the best use of funds is irrelevant.

There are already mechanisms in place to prevent money from flowing to terrorist states or organizations. If you don't think these protections are strong enough, I'm more than open to strengthening them.

The government can learn from its experience and acknowledge what it did that was wrong and take steps to prevent it from happening in the future, but the greater good is not served by giving millions to assorted violent extremists who have been involved in the murder of civilians.
In a country that respects the rule of law, people who have been wronged are entitled to redress. People who have been held without trial for years in inhuman conditions have been wronged.

If officials have broken the law then they can even be prosecuted.
I'm glad we agree on that point.

Accountability doesn't simply mean paying millions to jihadis.
I didn't say that it did, but in both of our countries, people who have had their rights violated are entitled to restitution.

If those people violated the rights of others, then the people that they wronged are also entitled to restitution in turn.


If you have to, award him damages and transfer them to his victims' families instead seeing as they permanently lost their rights.
If the person has victims who can denonstrate that they've been wronged, this could be the practical consequence.

It may very well happen in future with Omar Khadr - I have no idea. As it stands now, his American criminal conviction and civil judgement were so riddled with problems and injustices that it's likely the Canadian courts won't honour them by enforcing the American order and taking money from his settlement. The American military and justice system screwed up royally. If Khadr had a fair criminal and civil trial, things might be different... but they're not, so he gets the presumption of innocence under the law.

It's not for simple 'misbehaviour' it is for being involved in violent attempts to revoke the rights of others.
Human rights are inviolable, regardless of what a person does. The only time they can be infringed is when it's necessary to protect the human rights of others, and then only to the extent necessary and only proportionate to the threat.

I agree with Popper "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Respect of fundamental human rights is not "unlimited tolerance". Opposing detention without trial is not "unlimited tolerance."

The nature of the conflict makes it very problematic to have a 'fair' civilian style trial anywhere though, it's not like he can just call up a few Jihadis and get them to pop over to Canada or they can send a police forensics team to gather evidence at the site.
Then too bad for you, because there are only three legitimate options in a case like Khadr's:

- treat him like a child soldier and work to rehabilitate him, not punish him.

- treat him like an adult soldier and hold him in similar comfort to what your own troops receive until the cessation of hostilities, at which time you release him.

- treat him like a criminal and afford him all the rights normally granted to a criminal defendent, such as habeas corpus and a fair and speedy trial.

There are no other legitimate options. If you decide to treat him like a criminal but because of circumstances you can't meet the normal standard for a conviction, you release him.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
And, no, I don't buy into the idea that he was indoctrinated from early childhood. I see him as a willing participant, but he still has rights.
Really, that would be a matter for exploration at a fair trial that hasn't happened yet.

... if it was established that the death of Sgt. Speer was a crime at all (since most battlefield deaths aren't) and that Khadr was the one who did it (which apparently hasn't been fully established yet).
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Really, that would be a matter for exploration at a fair trial that hasn't happened yet.

... if it was established that the death of Sgt. Speer was a crime at all (since most battlefield deaths aren't) and that Khadr was the one who did it (which apparently hasn't been fully established yet).
The cold logical side of me sees this and agrees. For me, it's a gut feeling, really. There is never going to be a court case that will penetrate these events enough to give us a clear picture. Besides, if a court case went ahead, the defense would paint him as being pure as the driven snow.

More to the point is how you are any better informed thinking he was indoctrinated from an early age. It's moot.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Not really, @esmith

What may well be baffling to our American friends is that @9-10ths_Penguin is simply and effectively elucidating the thoughts of most Canadians. Even this grizzled hawkish conservative. It's just the way we roll up here.

As I said earlier in this thread, part of me would like to see Khadr slowly rot in a prison for the rest of his life, BUT... and it's a really big but, his rights were violated by your government and my own government went along with it. No court, in the civilized world, will accept a confession gained through torture. As much as it makes me choke, Khadr IS entitled to a rather large settlement. And, no, I don't buy into the idea that he was indoctrinated from early childhood. I see him as a willing participant, but he still has rights.
I like your big but.


Wait....that doesn't sound right.
 
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